D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Is this a metaphor of himself – this tree and the way he describes it; or even a metaphor for Winifred – the way he perceives her?
I like the line I bolded up about the almond tree…beautiful poetic writing. Is there any special significance pointing out that her house is in a dark tree-lined street?

The idea of the dark tree-lined street, just gives me the image of it being somewhere kind of secluded, and sort of set off or apart from the lively festivities of the house he left to follow Winnie. It also gives me the image of almost a tunnel, when I think of photos I have seen of streets that have trees on either side of them, it is more of a private, closed in felling, and could be a sort of transitional period.

I always remember this tree," he said; "how I used to feel sorry for it when it was full out, and so lively, at midnight in the lamplight. I thought it must be tired."

This line to me seems like it is suggesting Coutts, perhaps this is how he views himself. He feel like his is getting older, and perhaps a part of him is tired of his bachelor life, and he does want to settle down, though he is still on the brink.

I can’t remember, did he answer this question of Winifred’s before or is he just now admitting to his sleeping arrangements for the night?

I do not recall him brining it up any time before this

What exactly are piano-candles? This imagine of lighting the piano-candles and lowering the blinds sounds like he is secluding them; seeking privacy.

I think they are just suppose to be candles that were placed upon the piano. I tried to research it, and could not find anything that is acutally called a "piano-candle"

I am curious to know why he thought they were out of place on the piano being red or so it seems to be because of the color, but is it merely because she has any flowers at all on the piano, something he has not known before to be characteristic of her?.... and he thought he knew her so well….it that why he comments in surprise about the red flowers?

What significance do the scentless flowers have; why so significant to Coutts in his usual image of Winifred; also why does he see her only buying the pastel flowers that are scented? Does the red represent a signal to Coutts of passion that he had not known of before?
Red poppies can also signify remembrance, such as of the fallen soldiers in France during the war.

I am still not completely sure what to make of the flowers here, I am going to have to mull this one over still for a bit.

Ah, the fateful lamp….

It is interesting how the lamp is pointed out here, while it is being brought it. Almost makes me think of a play when they are moving the props onto stage for the next scene. Perhaps this is meant to be some sort of foreshadow.

[Quark]

What exactly are piano-candles? This imagine of lighting the piano-candles and lowering the blinds sounds like he is secluding them; seeking privacy.

DM's right. I think they're just candles on the piano, and not some special thing called "piano candles." Whatever they are, they do seclude them, and create a more intimate setting.

I am curious to know why he thought they were out of place on the piano being red or so it seems to be because of the color, but is it merely because she has any flowers at all on the piano, something he has not known before to be characteristic of her?.... and he thought he knew her so well….it that why he comments in surprise about the red flowers?

The red flowers are an indication of her new-found boldness which Coutts isn't used to seeing. That's why he reacts to the flowers, and Winifred admits that she wishes she hadn't bought them. They're both uncomfortable with her being so aggressive.

What significance do the scentless flowers have; why so significant to Coutts in his usual image of Winifred; also why does he see her only buying the pastel flowers that are scented?

The absence of scent is like the absence of real love in Winifred's passion for Coutts at this point. The color is rich and alluring, but the flower is scentless. Winifred's desire is similarly substanceless.

[Janine]

Dark Muse, I agree with all you pointed out in your post right before this one. Hey, Dm...is that a first? We actually agree.

DM's right. I think they're just candles on the piano, and not some special thing called "piano candles." Whatever they are, they do seclude them, and create a more intimate setting.

Dark Muse and Quark, I was actually watching this film, I own about Lawrence and one scene is his mother playing the piano, with Lawrence as a child looking on. The film features his poems and this one I believe is called "Piano".,..oddly enough and I had not even noticed this, when I viewed it before - the piano had the piano candles, he is speaking of in this story. They apparently were holders on both ends of the piano right above the keys. The holder jutted out from the body of the piano and therefore, the candles they held, illuminated the keys directly. How strange, that I had not noticed this before. I will try and locate a photo online. I never have seen them before this.

The red flowers are an indication of her new-found boldness which Coutts isn't used to seeing. That's why he reacts to the flowers, and Winifred admits that she wishes she hadn't bought them. They're both uncomfortable with her being so aggressive.

Good point. Red is such a bold color. The pastels would have indicated a more sedate way of thinking or acting on Winifred's behalf. Yes, maybe tonight it the night he notices the red, since red usually indicates passion and often true love, such as in the color of roses.

The absence of scent is like the absence of real love in Winifred's passion for Coutts at this point. The color is rich and alluring, but the flower is scentless. Winifred's desire is similarly substanceless.

Another very good point. Thanks, Quark and everyone else for posting some comments. I will check over my own post and see if we missed anything I asked specifically. At least this brought the thread up in the listings again. Same with Chekhov thread. That is good - keep them active.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse, I agree with all you pointed out in your post right before this one. Hey, Dm...is that a first? We actually agree.

LOL that is frightening

[Janine]

LOL that is frightening

Yes, I am still trembling with awe.

[Dark Muse]

Perhpas Winni is suppose to be a very "preditcable" person, that typicaly does not stray from her usual routine and so he is surprised to see something out of place, and later she does sort of "defend" herself for the change:

"Only while the table was in use" she smiled, glancing at the litter of papers that covered her table.

[Janine]

Maybe Coutts expected Winifred to have white flowers because she has not engaged in a sexual relationship with him. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I think their relationship has been strictly non-sexual. He is shocked at the presence of the red anemones and expects her to have purchased something like white freesias, instead.

Antiquarian, That may be a possibility or a sort of sign or signal in Coutts mind that she indeed would like to go further sexually with him. Red is a very desirous color. I don't think the normal flowers she would have were referred to as white but rather pastels; these would indicate a more sedate or calm nature.

What I don't understand is why he's shocked that flowers have been placed on the piano.

I think that below, Dark Muse is answering this fine. I don't know if I see any other deeper significance in them, except that they draw more attention to the piano, which can also indicate a more passionate nature, instrument of passionate expression.

Perhpas Winni is suppose to be a very "preditcable" person, that typicaly does not stray from her usual routine and so he is surprised to see something out of place, and later she does sort of "defend" herself for the change:

Hi Everyone! You won't believe this. I just picked the next story; the one we will discuss next month for this thread. The thing is I was looking online on Amazon last night and recalled I had put this audio CD in my wishlist. However, I discovered one can download the MP3 file, for only 2 dollars; it is one of the short stories, so I figured it must be a good one - the CD sells for 20 dollars. So today at breakfast, I read the story. I liked it very much and when I got to the ending, I did recall I had read it before. So, I think that would be a good one to do next time. I will definitely download the narration (MP3 file for $2) and when I post the name of the story (keeping it secret now) I will also post the audiofile link, in case any of you want to do the same. It will be a good addition to my Lawrence collection, which is growing by 'leaps and bounds' lately.

Later today, should I post more of the text to this story or do you want to discuss this part further? Whichever is fine with me.

[Quark]

Dark Muse and Quark, I was actually watching this film, I own about Lawrence and one scene is his mother playing the piano, with Lawrence as a child looking on. The film features his poems and this one I believe is called "Piano".,..oddly enough and I had not even noticed this, when I viewed it before - the piano had the piano candles, he is speaking of in this story. They apparently were holders on both ends of the piano right above the keys. The holder jutted out from the body of the piano and therefore, the candles they held, illuminated the keys directly. How strange, that I had not noticed this before. I will try and locate a photo online. I never have seen them before this.

Oh, so there are special "piano candles." They must not be very big, or else they must get in the way of playing--or set you ablaze. I could use some monitor candles, actually. This new flat screen is really difficult to see at certain angles. Some illumination would really help.

Also, I started reading Women in Love, yesterday. It's been pretty enjoyable so far. Although, there have been many of those annoying Lawrence sentences where he uses zillions of pronouns without proper antecedents. They go something like this:

Then she looked into that of his which fell from him every time she was brought close to it. It was this thisness which she reviled, hated, loathed, found odious, and was repelled from. If only she could surpass his thisness with her thatness intact. Then it would happen.

Lawrence goes into indecipherable stretches like this, and I have no clue what he's talking about exactly.

[Janine]

Oh, so there are special "piano candles." They must not be very big, or else they must get in the way of playing--or set you ablaze. I could use some monitor candles, actually. This new flat screen is really difficult to see at certain angles. Some illumination would really help.

Yes, there are actually things known as piano candlesticks. Look them up online. I will post one photo later, that I copied to my file, so you can get an idea of what they are like. They are at each end of the piano, not really directly over the keys, so you can't get burnt. They are a kind of sconce, I believe that attaches to the piano, instead of a wall.

Quark, Your new monitor probaby needs adjusting for color and tone and brightness; I went back to the store and asked the salesmen of help with that. Also I sat mine on a few books to elevate it. It has to be at the right angle to see it correctly. Try elevating it some. The instruction booklet should clue you in on these facts and the adjustments.

Also, I started reading Women in Love, yesterday. It's been pretty enjoyable so far. Although, there have been many of those annoying Lawrence sentences where he uses zillions of pronouns without proper antecedents. They go something like this:

Glad you are reading it. It is a good novel. Lawrence felt it was his best. Come now - is that the exact quote, Quark? If so, where is it in the novel? "Women in Love" is my favorite novel of Lawrence's. In fact, I am now relistening to it on MP3 - I just finished listening to it and started it over again, can you believe it? I must know which page that section of text was taken from, so I can look that up....curious now...try to shed some light on it for you...if I can...hahaha

Lawrence goes into indecipherable stretches like this, and I have no clue what he's talking about exactly.

Hahah - maybe I can help you with some of those. By two readings and now one listening to a narration and starting a forth time around I might know what he is talking about - I should hope so, anyway.


I will answer everyone else later. Have to make a phone call and get ready to go see my grandchild.

Well, seems I can answer more posts now - can't get through on the phone.
So on with Antiquarian's -

I also wondered what the litter of papers was, but I guess Winifred was a music teacher. Or at least a musician.

Yes, I would assume that and also wouldn't that indicate that she really was not expecting anyone? I thought seeing Coutts at Laurie's house was a surprise/shock for her.

No, the ones Coutts suggests weren't pure white, Janine. Here's the description:

"I would have wagered you would buy freesias," he said.
"Why?" she smiled. He pleased her thus.
"Well--for their cream and gold and restrained, bruised purple, and their scent. I can't believe you bought scentless flowers!"

And I would think that would make a difference. 'White' would indicate 'purity', while the other flowers, being pastel, may indicate a sort of passiveness or a kind of 'shyness or reserve'; these she would normally have displayed in her house. Where as 'red', to me, blantantly indicates or suggests a much 'bolder' aspect and perhaps reflects Winifred's new mood directly to Coutts; that is why he is in a state of astonishment. It is so unlike her usual mood.

Do you and DM see the piano as more passionate than the violin? I don't. The piano is kind of a cold instrument to me, very unemotional, but perhaps that's just me because I heartily dislike playing it. LOL Actually, one very professional pianist told me a lot of people find playing the piano unemotional because we don't actually "make" the music ourselves - we strike the keys and that causes a hammer to strike the strings. Now, with the violin, we're in direct contact with the strings as we draw the bow over them. I just thought that was interesting. I've always remembered it as possibly the source of my aversion for the piano.

Well, I'm very anxious to learn the name of the next story.

Well, I happen to love piano music and see it as very passionate. Beethoven without passion? He basically played the piano, didn't he? I think you have been influenced by your own dislike of the instrument and your frustration in not liking to play it. I always find the piano wonderfully emotional and passionate. Funny how some see it so differently. I like the violin and it can make me cry sometimes, but sometimes the passion of it and the high tones become too much for me. How can one listen to Debussy and to Chopin and not hear/feel real passion in their piano compositions?

Technically, that is an interesting observation, Antiquarian, but I don't agree, at all, with the idea of it not measuring up to the violin. I personally love both. Also, how can one evaluate music or sound technically? I love the movie scores I own; the ones that are basically piano. I loved the music to the film "The Piano" and to the film "The Pianist". Both rely heavily on piano orchestrations.

Antiquarian, now I made you all so curious to know the next story title; I can't tell you yet or you will all abandon these ending parts of this story.....hahah...can't slack off yet.....we are getting to the real climax of the story real soon....

Antiq, how are your revisions coming along?

[Janine]

Oh, no. I do think the piano has passion, just not more than the violin. I think Beethoven had a lot of passion, but he's just not my favorite composer. I have a Busoni piano CD that is one of my favorites, but I have to admit, I'm very, very partial to the violin.

I don't know if even I agree with the pianist who made that observation. I know some people who connect quite wonderfully with the piano and feel very emotional when playing it. I think it's just a matter of personal preference.

Antiquarian, actually.... I am that type who connects with the piano, more than I do the violin. I like the violin, but some violin music can actually get on my nerves; whereas, piano has a range and I can process that better at times. I know it is all personal preference. It probably is due to the fact, that my father always played me piano music (on records), when I was a baby, and I loved it. He played Gershwin's 'Rapsody in Blue' continually, so I guess I grew up loving that piece, that being jazz/classical mix and not really pure classical. He did play me plenty of classical and especially Beethoven, so I acquired the ear for the piano. My mother played the piano, as well. My aunt played the violin, but I don't know just how well. I never heard her play. One of my favorites is Debussy's 'Claire de Lune' and 'La Mer' - can those be played on a violin? I don't really know much technically, but thought they were usually featured on the piano. I love 'Moonlight Sonata' and 'The 9th Symphony', plus it amazes me that Beethoven wrote that when stone deaf.

Being a reluctant pianist, (LOL) though, I do know you have to evaluate the music on a technical basis at times. It's not fun, but it must be done. Right now, my piano needs to be revoiced as well as tuned, but I'm not of a mind to have it done. I don't think listeners evaluate a piece of music from a technical standpoint, though. Even I don't when I listen and I studied piano for many years. I should play much better than I do, but my preference for the violin interferred with my piano studies, of course.

Antiquarian, yes, I think that listeners do not process the music on the level of the technical. In fact, sometimes I prefer to only hear/feel it, and not actually 'see' the instruments, that techically, the music is coming from. I guess I like the fantasy of it all and the way it all blends, each note into the other and becomes a whole. I did not know that you played the violin - that is splendid!

My revisions are slow and painstaking. I am such a painstaking writer and it's so hard to edit oneself.

Maybe you are a 'perfectionist', like me, with my artwork. Problem is when being that way, (I am way too picky) one tends to never truly finish anything. You would not believe how much artwork, I have sitting right here, waiting to be completed - we are talking years now. I just could not be satisified with it, so I put it asside, until I thought I could complete it correctly. Not a good thing in the end really. I just found out that Da Vinci hardly ever completed anything. I think the record is under 10 paintings, that he actually completed. Maybe I am normal for an artist, who knows?

I agree with your assessment about the red anemones. Coutts is just very surprised to see them and they indicate a change in "mood" on Winifred's part.

Yes, but now the question comes up in my mind: if she did not expect to see Coutts that night the flowers were truly a chance for her; so now when Coutts sees them there, he notes this change, from when she was with him last. Interesting thought. Like he might have wanted her to be more bold; so he departs from her life; and ironically, she becomes more bold in her mood and actions with his absense. Maybe before he would advise her never to sit them on the piano and now it is a sort act of defiance; or could be the opposite - maybe she always wanted them on the table and he on the piano.

Yes, very anxious to know the title of the new story. Not to abandon this one, but to see if I have it in one of my books.

Antiquarian, which Lawrence short story books do you now own? I asked you this before, and what other books by Cambridge (you mentioned buying some recently) but you must not have seen my question; I have been curious. I have many of the short story editions and wanted to see which ones you bought, so we could compare notes. This short story is also available from Amazon - you just download the MP3 audiofile for a mere $2.00. I thought that would be fun. The story is not that long; I read it at breakfast today. It went quickly. It does not have as much complicated symbolism, as this last story had...it is more straightforward - might be an earlier story...I will check in my reference books. I think Michael Black has some commentary on it and some in another book - the timeline book.

[Janine]

Oh, I don't play the violin, Janine. I only wish I did. I play the piano. Not that well, but I do play. I haven't played for some time now, but I used to play daily. I do like Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and I like "Fur Elise."

Antiquarian, Yes, very beautiful...I like "Fur Elise" too. Oh, I thought you meant you played the violin. Yes, I would love to be able to play any instrument, but unfortunately, my talent does not lie in musical instruments. I used to sing, but not a great singer. I was in my high school play and was told I sang well, but I never had much confidence. Singing takes practice, so I am sure by now, my voice is quite gone...
I own this DVD of the ballet version of "Lady of the Camilas" and the entire ballet is piano - Chopin. It is one of the most passionate ballets I have ever seen - really intense. I may watch that again tonight. I just love it. Another example of beautiful piano music.

A year ago, I watch the movie "Copying Beethoven," which was delightful. If you like Beethoven, I think you'd love it.

That is strange, I saw that movie about the same time. Ed Harris, right? I wasn't real sure about it. Ed Harris is always interesting to see and he is a very fine actor. I think I preferred his role in 'Pollack' though. I wasn't at all sure about the woman who played the role of the copier - I forget just who now; I know she was pretty, but that part did not seem quite real to me. I thought Ed Harris portrayed him a little too crude, but I know the genius was not such a nice person; he had a lot of inner anger and a nasty temper. I think I prefer the other film that I own called "Eternal Beloved", about Beethoven and his muse(s). One scene is amazing with Gary Oldman playing the piano, with his head laying on the top of the grand piano, in order to perceive the vibrations.

Yes, I'm a perfectionist with regard to writing short stories. Not other writing, necessarily, but with short stories, yes. And after lyric poetry, the short story is the most difficult thing to write.

I knew it; soon you will drive yourself crazy with too many revisions! Short stories are quite difficult to write and get correct....just so....

I did forget that Winifred didn't expect to see Coutts that night. She didn't put the red flowers there for him.

Oh good, you see my point then.

I only own two Lawrence books so far, one is "The Cambridge Companion to D.H. Lawrence," which contains critical essays on his work, and the other is "Selected Stories of D.H. Lawrence," which is published by Penguin Classics. It contains a lot of the stories you've already read, which is nice for me, as I do want to read them, even though I missed the discussion.

I looked two up on Amazon. One I could not see the table of contents; the other is this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Selected-Stori...58/ref=sr_1_2? (is this the one you bought?) If so I looked in the table of contents and it is not in there, unfortunately. I was hopeful when I saw the book was 400 pages long. It probably is online somewhere. I will go and search for it. I will PM you if I find it or post when we get ready to read it.
Is that other book good: "The Cambridge Companion to D.H.Lawrence"? I actually think I have that in my wishlist but then thought - do I really need another commentary book - it might just repeat the ones I do own.
You can find all the stories and novels, etc on this site - full texts:

http://gutenberg.net.au/pages/lawren...l#shortstories

Looks like I am here tonight afterall and not going out. My son said to come over to the house Monday night (my mom and I); tomorrow his wife and baby are coming home; so tonight is a bit hectic. I don't mind; not feeling real good myself anyway, probaby just tired out.
I will try and post some more text later on.

[Dark Muse]

Do you and DM see the piano as more passionate than the violin? I don't. The piano is kind of a cold instrument to me, very unemotional, but perhaps that's just me because I heartily dislike playing it. LOL Actually, one very professional pianist told me a lot of people find playing the piano unemotional because we don't actually "make" the music ourselves - we strike the keys and that causes a hammer to strike the strings. Now, with the violin, we're in direct contact with the strings as we draw the bow over them. I just thought that was interesting. I've always remembered it as possibly the source of my aversion for the piano.

I kind of agree with both you and Janine here. It is true that piano music can be very passionate. But I also agree that the act of playing the violen is visually more passionate in appearnce than the act of playing the piano is. I think that the physcial act of playing the piano does come acorss as more cold and distant than the phycial act of playing the violen. But I also think that Pianist do have as much passion for thier music as violenist have.

[Janine]

I agree with that, DM. I think all good musicians have passion for their music, no matter what instrument they play. I have one friend, who is a jazz guitarist, and he tells me that in order to really play well, outstandingly, one must "become the music." I think Beethoven did that with the piano, as did Mozart with the harpsichord (it was a harpsichord, wasn't it?) and I think Joshua Bell does it with the violin. I know my friend does it with the guitar.

Yes, that is well put, Antiquarian; I truly believe that is true and of all great artists. They lose themselves in their work and the work becomes a part of them. This sense of 'losing oneself' or 'giving oneself up' to the art is what makes the art great. The music/art is not just a mere extension of themselves - it is themselves expressed on paper/canvas or in sound.

That brings me back to the story. Winifred must have had a very passionate nature. She was a very good musician, who played at least the piano and the violin, perhaps more, and the way Coutts describes her when she's playing, she's very "into" her music. Perhaps she channeled all her passion into her music rather than into any man, much to Coutts' dismay.

Exactly, and I think that Coutts is well aware of Winifred's passion and her potential passion for a man; which of course, is never realised in this story. I just scanned the text because I thought I recalled one line or part of a statement whereby Coutts noticed this unrealised passion in Winifred but feels it is potentially present. There is one line that says:

After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones

but that is not the exact line I was looking for to expound on this idea. Maybe it is about to come up in the next section of type or closer to the end. Interesting how the words 'passionate tones' also refer us back to the idea of music with it's various elements of 'passionate tones.'

[Janine]

Yes, there are a lot of musical allusions in this story. I like them.

Antiquarian, I see you online now; your green light is on. I like those allusions to musical elements, as well. There are many, don't you think?

I am so sleepy all of a sudden. Going to a concert tomorrow with my friend. It is this great local choral group, who sing classical pieces. It is always joyous and relaxing to hear them perform. It will be fun and then after we will go out to dinner somewhere nice. Concert begins at 4PM.

I don't think I will post anymore text tonight, if you all don't mind. I want to watch a movie; still can't decide - too many good ones to chose from, right? I will try and post some tomorrow night instead. I just ran out of energy now.

Quote by Dark Muse:

I kind of agree with both you and Janine here. It is true that piano music can be very passionate. But I also agree that the act of playing the violen is visually more passionate in appearnce than the act of playing the piano is. I think that the physcial act of playing the piano does come acorss as more cold and distant than the phycial act of playing the violen. But I also think that Pianist do have as much passion for thier music as violenist have.

Dark Muse, That is an interesting thought about the visual aspects of each. Yes, and the violin is held so close to the body while the piano is not, yet the fingers are so sensitive and say it all in the playing - the contact is intimate in the fingers moving along the keys. Didn't you two see the film "The Pianist" when he was only imagining playing the piano and imagining the music - that scene was my favorite. It felt quite intimate and passionate. The contacts may be physical, but the true connection is in the mind and the soul of the musican and the artist.

[Janine]

I'd love to watch a movie tonight, too, but my husband has to go to bed early. He has a double shift at the restaurant tomorrow as well. Then he's off on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. Maybe we can squeeze in some movies then.

Enjoy your movie, Janine. And enjoy the concert. That sounds like fun!

Oh sorry; fly on over, Antiquarian; I would rather watch movies with you, then go do my laundry..ugh. It is late, I better start watching something or it will get too late for tonight. Also, I am already falling asleep.