D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse, I think that is very true and when we get to the part when Coutts becomes angry with Winifred he brings up the idea of the image of a mirror, that she likes to hold up and see him in...something like that. He later says "I am a blessed Lady-of-Shalot looking-glass for you". A looking glass is a mirror, right? So I would take that to mean she does not see the real person, but the image of what she wants him to be - a mere reflection of himself, not his true being.

First they discuss Winifred's "crystal ball" but than later I think he does say looking glass

With this, I feel you are pushing the symbolism a little too far. I think Coutts is talking with Laura and she is trying to pry personal information from him about his engagement and also about why he and Winifred broke things off. He is not in a state of arousal; if anything it is aggitation. She is putting him into an uncomfortable position and the stiffening is a sign of being a little defensive and secretive. Why would he be aroused by Laura? He doesn't have any sexual interest in Laura.

Acutally he was talking about the statue in that line, here is the whole passage:

They adjourned into the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in a dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shinning white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet height. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

[Janine]

First they discuss Winifred's "crystal ball" but than later I think he does say looking glass

Yes, I know that; but I was holding back from advancing to that part this early. That was when he was at Winifred's house; so that would be the final division in the story. Here is the entire quote, but taken out of context of what preceeds this remark and what follows, so we can examine that closer when we get to it. Here is the quote and Coutts is saying it:

"Exactly," he said in a biting tone. "Exactly! That's what you want me for. I am to be your crystal, your 'genius'. My length of blood and bone you don't care a rap for. Ah, yes, you like me for a crystal-glass, to see things in: to hold up to the light. I'm a blessed Lady-of-Shalott looking-glass for you."

I can briefly comment on this that Lawrence was considered a young 'genius' and he really did not like people labeling him such; so Coutts based on Lawrence would be saying this in a way to Winifred and that this was not all his worth as a man. Remember at this junction, he was still struggling as an artist/author. When he says "my length of blood and bone" he is definitely referring to the physical side of himself and the deeper blood conscious relationship he can not establish here with Winifred and they both know it. The crystal-glass may refer in this case to the magic she feels he weaves about her or the allure and they both have plenty of allure for each other. I can't quite recall the story of the 'Lady-of-Shallot', but isn't that magical and to do with Lancelot? I am going now to look that up on Wikipedia. Believe it or not, I have the poem - it is by Sir Walter Scott I believe and it is long but I never did get around to reading it.

Acutally he was talking about the statue in that line, here is the whole passage:

Oh sorry, I was thinking of a different part of the story. I mixed that up with the part when he was talking to Laura. I am not sure why or how I did that, but I did just go and check out the text and I don't see it in the conversation and now with the whole quote, I see what you are saying.
I think this is also a tension along with the actual erotic feeling or reaction. I think by feeling aroused by the statue, the image off Winifred in the dark mirror, he is also feeling torn and disturbed with that ever-present feeling of guilt and the fact that the potential is there for him to do wrong.


I am editing this with additional information on "Lady of Shallot", which I found in Wikipedia. If you find that entry in Wiki you can also read more about the poem and the original legend. I correct myself, the poem is by Tennyson. Here is an important exerpt from the article:

"In a more general sense, it is fair to say that the pre-Raphaelite fascination with Arthuriana is traceable to Tennyson's work" (Zanzucchi). Tennyson's biographer Leonée Ormonde finds the Arthurian material is "introduced as a valid setting for the study of the artist and the dangers of personal isolation".

Some consider "The Lady of Shalott" to be representative of the dilemma that faces artists, writers, and musicians: to create work about and celebrating the world, or to enjoy the world by simply living in it. Others see the poem as concerned with issues of women's sexuality and their place in the Victorian world. The fact that the poem works through such complex and polyvalent symbolism indicates an important difference between Tennyson's work and his Arthurian source material. While Tennyson's sources tended to work through allegory, Tennyson himself did not.

The article reveals much more than this states - it is also about the woman's isolation.

Hi Everyone! It is me, your tired leader. I have to go out today and might not be back until late - depends. You might want to discuss up to this part, while I am gone today and when I come back I can also comment and post more text or post more text tomorrow.


NEXT PART OF TEXT:

At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.
"It is a year last Monday since we came over here," said Winifred, as they stopped to look about them.
"I remember--but I didn't know it was then," he said. There was a touch of hardness in his voice. "I don't remember our dates."
After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones:
"It is a beautiful night."
"The moon has set, and the evening star," he answered; "both were out as I came down."
She glanced swiftly at him to see if this speech was a bit of symbolism. He was looking across the valley with a set face. Very slightly, by an inch or two, she nestled towards him.
"Yes," she said, half-stubborn, half-pleading. "But the night is a very fine one, for all that."
"Yes," he replied, unwillingly.
Thus, after months of separation, they dove-tailed into the same love and hate.

If anyone wants to requote this and underline key words/phrases, go ahead. I will be in later to read all of your brilliant insights. Have fun, or take a break, too!

[Virgil]

I haven't read through today's posts, but as to the statue, you know there are two statues. Wini and Connie??? Look at how they're described. I think there's a distinction between the two.

[Virgil]

And Virgil, woman can be so bewitching....

That's an understatement.

Aren't most men...
babbling idiots in front of a beautiful alluring woman? just kidding really...showing my hidden hostility to men now...

Actually that's an even bigger understatement.

The old man is her pater or father. So, Virgil, you went back and 'ooked'....

Yes, I ooked.

[Virgil]

Good observation, Virgil. It'll be interesting going back to see how both are described. This story is so much more complex that I first gave it credit for being, and I'm glad.

Janine commented on how that passage was sensual. Here it is again:

They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.

The nude statue of Venus is clearly associated with the corsetless Winifred. Lawrence never mentions what the other statue is like. Is it an exact replica? He calls one "the Venus" which implies the other is not. But clearly there are two statues, like there are two women in his subconscious. But it's almost as if the other statue goes out of Coutt's consciousness. Just like Connie, perhaps?

[Dark Muse]

Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.

Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.

As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"

Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

[Virgil]

Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.

As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"

Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

Yes, good points.

[Quark]

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

I hadn't thought about that DM. Good point. I wonder what everyone thinks about the mirror. What's with the whole grey, mysterious thing on the wall? Janine put forward an idea that makes some sense, but I'm still not convinced.

[Virgil]

Mirror seems to be associated with the moon and the night and water. All symbols of the female.

[Janine]

Interesting ideas from all of you on this page. I will just add this but I am too tired now to post anymore. Some of this is from an earlier post concerning the mirror and the statues....sorry if I can repeating..

Someone already pointed out the new, 'lustrous fascination' he is feeling about the chimney-piece. All else up until now, seemed totally unchanged to him, but now it seems to be even more alluring and wondrous. I don’t know if the dull yellow of the upholstered room has any significance. So, it seems the mirror is a new addition to the mantel. Here is it described as “very translucent and deep, like deep gray water”…it did make me think of a lake at night or the ‘Lady of the Lake's image….or ‘The Lady of Shallot’ legend and poem, which is later mentioned in the story. It seems that the mirror is a symbol of 'mystery' here, because it is ‘dark and translucent and deep’. Then in contrast, to this mysterious mirror, are the statues, that reflect into the dark mirror as white moons. These seem to mimic the very walk in the darkness the two will shortly take, and although the moon is no longer seen, Winifred in her white dress, would take the place of the moon and it’s mysteries, and allure. She will be against the darker mystery of the heavens or night skies, which also mimic the mantel, statues and mirror. Somewhere, also I would think in Coutts inner recesses of his brain, he would connect these images; call it subconsciously. He would connect Winifred to the white alabaster statues, the nude figures glistening under the night lamps and in the mystery of the night – luminous, radiating like that evening star and the new moon he first saw.

Could the two statues also represent the changing nature of Winifred? She seems almost to have split purposes and is variable most of the time when with Coutts....she tosses him about emotionally, like the trains he mentioned earlier, how they jolt one this way and that. Usually on a mantel one can have matching pairs of statues but it may be these are different. Does the text indicate that they are? Many times one is a woman and one a man in that case. The duality of Connie and Winifred is an interesting idea; but I think it also could inticate a certain duality within Winifred's very character.

[Dark Muse]

The discussion about the statues has given me a slightly different persepctive upon the story, than what has been discussed thus far though I do not know if anyone else would see it in this light, it had occured to me. But part of it involves one of the passages that come up later in the story, so I might just wait untill we get to that point.

[Janine]

I never thought about that, Janine, but I would think the statues would indicate more of a duality in Winifred than anything else.

It seems, though, that only one is a Venus:

Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

Well, it they were full body statues most likely one would be a female (godess) and the other a male (god)..they would be a set of mythological deities. Usually you don't have a set of two female deities together and they seem to be a set. I used to deal in antiques and I know this is generally the rule. The description only concentrates or focus on the Venus, which would be appropriate considering she is the goddess of love. Perhaps the other was Mars - the male god in the love duo. Venus embodies the feminine (receptive) and Mars the masculine (dominent, aggressive).
I tend to believe the two probably were this pair of statues. In "Jude the Obscure" I recall distinctively, that Sue purchased two statues, such as these -one male and one female. I wonder if Lawrence got the idea from reading Hardy's novel.
I see the duality within Winifred herself. She is variable like the moon....she is the new moon clearly visible and then she is illusive, just as the moon has gone from sight and now is illusive, invisible to the viewer.

The discussion about the statues has given me a slightly different persepctive upon the story, than what has been discussed thus far though I do not know if anyone else would see it in this light, it had occured to me. But part of it involves one of the passages that come up later in the story, so I might just wait untill we get to that point.

Oh good, post that when it comes up later. I will be interested to hear your theory.

[Janine]

In Jude the Obscure, Sue purchases statues of Venus and Apollo. Apollo, of course, was the sun (opposite of moon?) god and the god of poetry and music. And they are having a musical concert.

Antiquarian, wow, that is really interesting - thanks for looking that up and posting it. You are right, in astrology Apollo rules the Sun. Now that seems to have some relevance here, don't you think it? I just looked Apollo up in my dictionary and it says: "The Greek and Roman god of music, poetry, prophecey, and medicine". The first 3 would fit the story and characters. Often L was later seen to be prophetic in his writing, interesting.
When I said Mars, I was thinking in terms of astrology, again. Actually, in astrology/astronomy, the sun is not opposite the moon. The sun is in the center (most significant force) with the planets radiating/rotating outward in their orbits from the sun in this order - the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. The moon would not be opposite the sun in astronomy. The moon reflects the sun's rays and gets it's illumination from the sun. Therefore, this might relate to the whole mirror idea and the reflection of Winifred in that mirror and being seen illuminated as the moon would be from the sun; not the sun, but an illusion of the sun. The moon for Lawrence embodied the negative/cold of the feminine and the sun the healing/warmth of the feminine image. Not sure I expressed that completely right. In this sense, they could be seen as opposites to Lawrence's mind.

This probably will be my last post tonight; actually, I am not feeling too well tonight, so I was trying to take it easy. Glad I checked in though. Hope you are better, A.....and I hope I am better tomorrow.

[Quark]

In Jude the Obscure, Sue purchases statues of Venus and Apollo. Apollo, of course, was the sun (opposite of moon?) god and the god of poetry and music. And they are having a musical concert.

Are they usually grouped together? I wasn't sure whether we were supposed to just know what the other one was, or whether the omission was somehow significant. Virgil already brought this up, but I think the desription of just the one statue is supposed to show how distracted Coutts is with Winifred that he just forgets about the statue that represents his wife. It makes sense since this part is placed right next to the part with violins which also represent seduction.

[Virgil]

In Hardy's Jude, the reason he picks one statue of Apollo and one for Venus is that Venus represents fleshy passion while Apollo typically represents an intellectual rationality. Lawrence could be playing with that too, not it's undeveloped in Lawrence's short story.