D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

That is quite interesting about the nut being a powerful symbol of paganism. Can you expound on that? DM[/b]

Many trees were often held as sacred in Pagansim, and the wood of those trees were seen to have certain magical properties, and so often times nuts from various different trees would be used in making charms and talismans.

Nuts also can be symbolic of fertility, and in many different Pagan Celebrations and Ceremonies incoperating nuts into the feast is comon, nuts are used in varrious ways in a lot of tradidtional Pagan receipies.

Varrious nuts were also beleived to have certain healing properties

DM, I loved that passage too, and thought maybe it evoked the idea of travel/foreign exotic lands, as well; especially since we have so much mention of trains and trams and travel in this story; even Coutts having just come from Diepe; thank Antiquarian, for letting me know that was in France and in what proximity to the area that Coutts now finds himself.

Yes, travel does feature a promiment role within this story. Could the idea of travel be symbolic in this story somehow? Beyond just acutaly physcial travel from one place or another.

[Janine]

Many trees were often held as sacred in Pagansim, and the wood of those trees were seen to have certain magical properties, and so often times nuts from various different trees would be used in making charms and talismans.

Nuts also can be symbolic of fertility, and in many different Pagan Celebrations and Ceremonies incoperating nuts into the feast is comon, nuts are used in varrious ways in a lot of tradidtional Pagan receipies.

Varrious nuts were also beleived to have certain healing properties

Dark Muse, Thanks, that was interesting; it might directly relate to the ideas in the story of potions and witches. It might just be the way he saw her skin. Decriptions like this were not that uncommon of Lawrence; als it links Laura to nature. I like all of these thoughts and find them of inportance. Thanks!

Yes, travel does feature a promiment role within this story. Could the idea of travel be symbolic in this story somehow? Beyond just acutaly physcial travel from one place or another.

Yes, since Antiquarian was questioning the significance of trams and trains and Coutts comes on a train to begin with I thought of travel when I read the passage about the old man's room. Why else would it be described like that? I think the idea of travel and being free go hand in hand in Lawrence's eyes so it may have been so in this story; Coutts was coming back from France and I read that Lawrence had made quite a number of journeys there, at this time. He really wanted to get away from England and it's restrains. So Connie could not only represent a marital retraint, but also a total life-style/socialogical restraint for Coutts (Lawrence). He would have been rooted now in England for good, had he married Connie.

My oldest brother is complaining of gaining weight! LOL

I'll be back to read your commentary later, Janine. We are barbecuing. LOL

Antiquarian, Tell your brother that is my problem, too! My son seems to think running will remedy that or cycling, of course the second can be dangerous if you are my son...*sigh...sigh*

Have a great barbecue! Serve your brother a piece of chicken tonight or burger with no roll.
I am going out to dinner with my mom very shortly. See you all later on.

[Janine]

As Winifred plays the violin, she seems to be a living embodiment of the Venus statue. Venus, the goddess of love, beckoning to Coutts.

Yes, I totally agree with that observation and idea. I could see that as I was underlining the text. Also, the Venus idea directly relates to the heavenly elements and the Godess of Love or the 'feminine', in astology. Isn't the morning star ruled by Venus? I am not sure but I will look that up.

Coutts actually wants to take the tram with Miss Syfert to West Croydon and then walk from there. It's Winifred who wants to walk the entire way, and of course, we know Coutts gives in to her wishes. She's already cast her spell on him.

Exactly; 'the witch a la mode' is doing her magic on him. I like this idea so much. Yes, he is even saddened by the fact that they don't go on with the kind older lady. He feels they hurt her.

Antiquarian, Shall I post the rest of your commentary about the interior of the room and also Dark Muse's commentary, when we enter the parlour and see the concert, just up until the two are left alone walking alone? I can do that, when I come back from eating out or you can repost those comments from your earlier posts?

[Dark Muse]

I can respost my coments regaurding the statues as I think we have already addressed my previous coments.

[Quark]

Ok, here is the next part of the text underlining some key phrases and words:

Have fun with it today or tonight! I have ideas, but will hold up for now.

Looking over the posts, it seems like we've already covered this part. The German woman represents the wife, while Winifred is the temptress. The scene at the car is reminiscent of Coutt's decision not to meet up with his wife. We've been over what the statue and the music symbolize. I don't have much else to add. I am caught up now, so I'm ready to move on whenever anyone is.

[Virgil]

My oldest brother is complaining of gaining weight! LOL

I'll be back to read your commentary later, Janine. We are barbecuing. LOL

I'm sorry for calling him a cook. Chef, of course. Have you watched the Food Network on TV? I've watched over the years and the other day I noticed while I'm at the gym (they have TVs with the treadmills and other machines and I usually put on the Food Channel) that several of the chefs have gained weight over the years. I guess they must eat way too much.

[Janine]

I can respost my coments regaurding the statues as I think we have already addressed my previous coments.

Ok, Dark Muse, that would be great if you could just re-post the parts about the statues. Thanks so much; I just got back from dinner and I ate too much, Virgil, Antiquarian...haha..and now I feel really sleepy...and fat!

Quark, if I see anything I want to further comment on in the text above I will do so and then post more of the text - ok?

[Virgil]

It seems this old man has seen his day and now is retired to his little room of memories.


The word “gallantry” stands out since this is very much like a dreamworld for Coutts. For this man his gallant days are done, but he may have had a life of great freedom and adventure at one time. At anyrate the man and daughter both do their best to make Coutts feel at home and comfortable, from the moment he steps into their house.


So really to the old man “Coutts might have been any other young man”. His babbling and chattering might just be his way now in his old age.

I wonder what the function of this old man is in the story. It's rather odd. The character serves no structural purpose, so it must be thematic. I want to think that the old man serves as a double to Coutts, a character that reflects something of another character. But I can't see what this arthritic old man reflects in Coutts. His only purpose seems to be that he mentions free will.

[Virgil]

Yes, since Antiquarian was questioning the significance of trams and trains and Coutts comes on a train to begin with I thought of travel when I read the passage about the old man's room.

I think the traveling about suggests a certain freedom for Coutts. The star early in the story serves as a guide post. He seems headed for his future. Is he choosing his path? Sometimes he does, sometimes it seems fated for him (the not being able to get on the train). Is it destiny or free will? Again it seems both.

Maybe he's what Coutts would become if he married Constance? That doesn't seem likely, but it's all I can think of right now. Coutts' future life would be sitting around a dinner table talking with others about this and that. We know Coutts wants more. He seems very passionate about life and very demanding of it.

Yes that was my first thought too, but it doesn't seem to fit well. My other thought was that this may be Coutts if he remains under Wini's spell. Laura seems to have the old man under a spell. I think that fits better.

[Virgil]

I don't know. I thought Laura was his daughter.

Oh you're right. I went back and ooked and she calls him "pater." But he does seem to be under her spell.

[Janine]

Lawrence uses those fertility symbols very frequently. He may have been young here so he may not have read Frazier's The Golden Bough yet, but he did at some point in life and used symbols from there many times.

Antiquarian, I think I read that Lawrence did read that book; I will check references and see if that is true. That is interesting.

I just read all your posts or most of them; what happened when I was writing my long response to the text? So many more posts again. I don't know if I can answer them all. Anyway, you asked for my comments on the post text up until the train, so here it is.

He suffered too. After hesitating for a second in the doorway, she came forward, shook hands without speaking, only looking at him with rather frightened blue eyes.

This part stood out to me making it clear they both suffered at this initial meeting. Winifred look at him with frightened blue eyes.

She was of medium height, sturdy in build. Her face was white and impassive, without the least trace of a smile.

I wasn’t sure what to make of that expression; was it due to the shock of seeing Coutts or was this her normal demeanor? She sounds like she might be somewhat on the ‘cool’ side, passive and reserved.

She was a blonde of twenty-eight, dressed in a white gown just short enough not to touch the ground. Her throat was solid and strong, her arms heavy and white and beautiful, her blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.

As the paragraph goes on we get a good mental picuture of her - blonde, 28, lovely white gown, beautiful arms though heavy and white, solid and strong throat…..most notably to me was this last phrase “with blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.”

When she had turned away from Coutts, she flushed vividly. He could see the pink in her arms and throat, and he flushed in answer.

"That blush would hurt her," he said to himself, wincing.

Did this ‘blush’ also hurt him, at the same tim,e since he is’ wincing’; or does he feel guilt in that wince, for coming here tonight and seeing her again?

"I did not expect to see you," she said, with a reedy timbre of voice, as if her throat were half-closed. It made his nerves tingle.
"No--nor I you. At least . . ." He ended indefinitely.

It seemed that this “reedy timbre of voice” makes his nerves tingle. I think later it mentions the voice when they are walking in the night and I believe it says they put his nerve on edge. Here is the later statement: “Her note had that intense reedy quality which set the man on edge;……..” When we get to that part it has more to the statement that may explain why this is so to Coutts.

"You have come down from Yorkshire?" she asked. Apparently she was cold and self-possessed. Yorkshire meant the Rectory where his fiancée lived; he felt the sting of sarcasm.
"No," he answered. "I am on my way there."
There was a moment's pause. Unable to resolve the situation,
she turned abruptly to her hostess.

So Winifred assumed automatically that he is on his way from the Rectory in Yorkshire and had gone there first and then came her to visit after. Also, note the one clue now that indeed Coutts fiancée lives in a Rectory and therefore must be a very protected young woman. It seems in mentioning this there is a “sting of sarcasm” – it that due to her disapproval of his engagement to a girl of this distinction and moral background? It seems, too, that now clearcut communication takes place to resolve this uncomforatable situation, so Wini turns to ask if they should play now.

"Shall we play, then?"
They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.

Someone already pointed out the new, lustrous fascination he is feeling about the chimney-piece. All else up until now seemed totally unchanged to him but now it seems to be even more alluring and wondrous. I don’t know if the dull yellow of the upholstered room has any significance. So, it seems the mirror is a new addition to the mantel. Here is it described as “very translucent and deep, like deep gray water”…it did make me think of a lake or ‘Lady of the Lake's image….or ‘The Lady of Shallot’ which is later mentioned in the story. It seems that the mirror is a symbol of 'mystery' here, because it is ‘dark and translucent and deep’. Then in contrast to this mysterious mirror are the statues, that reflect into the dark mirror as white moons. These seem to mimic the very walk in the darkness the two will shortly take, and although the moon is no longer seen, Winifred in her white dress, would take the place of the moon and it’s mysteries, and allure. Somewhere, also I would think in Coutts inner recesses of his brain, he would connect these images – call it subconsciously. He would connect Winifred to the white alabaster statues, the nude figures glistening under the night lamps and in the mystery of the night – luminous, radiating like that evening star he first saw.

Could the two statues also represent the changing nature of Winifred? She seems almost to have split purposes and is variable at times...she tosses Coutts about emotionally, like the trains he mentioned earlier, how they jolt one this way and that.

The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

A lot of sensual and sexual tension. I think that Dark Muse said as much in or in a similar way. A lot of ‘suspense’ in this part of the evening. Also, like the statues Winifred herself is “reflected white on the deep mirror”, as later she will be against the dark night; there she will shine, too. Lawrence really has a thing about ‘loins’ and saw them as a very sexual/sensual part of a woman and of a man. Also, how blatant can one be in this paragraph saying she leaned like the Venus as “if anticipating someone’s coming” (her lover?); also him stiffening, although I feel that is more sexual tension than literal.

..Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticize, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly.

I did not quite understand about the “unable to criticize” phrase…does this mean he normally would have or that he found nothing to criticize?

He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.

She plays sensually and with a lot of sexual power and suspense. How could any man resist at this point? At least being fascinated with her and her power? He obviously notice her figure with the fact observed that she wore no corset; also those days that would indicate a more modern type woman and maybe less sexually restrained. The last statement now indicates that he is consciously connecting her with the Venus figure on the mantelpiece. Also, interesting to note, maybe that the chimney/fire is connected to Winifred as well, even this early in the story. Also the ending line of that paragraph about Winifred - "an isolated woman" - interesting and may go along with what Antiquarian just said about Winifred and marriage.

…."We can go by car together to West Croydon," said the German lady, gleefully, as if she were a child. She was a frail, excitable little woman of forty, naïve and innocent. She gazed with bright brown eyes of admiration on Coutts.
"Yes, I am glad," he answered.

So after the German woman suggests this and this would be safer with 3 people and not Coutts being left all alone with Winifred he says he is glad. He seems to be sincere at this point about that statement. The woman seems to like Coutts and looks at him with admiration. She is however described as “forty, naïve and innocent.”

…… Coutts waited for Winifred. The conductor called:
"Come along, please, if you're going."
"No," said Winifred. "I prefer to walk this stage."
"We can walk from West Croydon," said Coutts.
The conductor rang the bell.
"Aren't you coming?" cried the frail, excitable little lady, from the footboard. "Aren't you coming?--Oh!"
"I walk from West Croydon every day; I prefer to walk here, in the quiet," said Winifred.
"Aw! aren't you coming with me?" cried the little lady, quite frightened. She stepped back, in supplication, towards the footboard. The conductor impatiently buzzed the bell. The car started forward, Miss Syfurt staggered, was caught by the conductor.
"Aw!" she cried, holding her hand out to the two who stood on the road, and breaking almost into tears of disappointment. As the tram darted forward she clutched at her hat. In a moment she was out of sight.
Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.

So suddenly, Winifred changes her mind and balks at going along on the train as a threesome. Wasn’t this planned out back at the house and she seemed in agreement on the plan? I can see why Coutts would be very annoyed at Winifred and her stubbornness, and feel “wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.”
One thing confuses me here and this is the prominity to Winifred’s house to West Croyden and to this location where they are leaving the train. Wouldn’t Coutts accompany her from either locales? Why is it so key that this is the longer walk? Is it also more remote and isolated, giving her more time to lure him, cast the spell of desire upon him?

And Virgil, woman can be so bewitching....


Aren't most men...
babbling idiots in front of a beautiful alluring woman? just kidding really...showing my hidden hostility to men now...

Oh you're right. I went back and ooked and she calls him "pater." But he does seem to be under her spell.

The old man is her pater or father. So, Virgil, you went back and 'ooked'....

[Quark]

Yes that was my first thought too, but it doesn't seem to fit well. My other thought was that this may be Coutts if he remains under Wini's spell. Laura seems to have the old man under a spell. I think that fits better.

I don't know if Laura has him under a spell, but I think the comparison between a potential Coutts and the old man does hold up. The old gentlemen is stiff with his politeness and gallantry, and Coutts considers himself similar to this when he's with Connie.

This part stood out to me making it clear they both suffered at this initial meeting. Winifred look at him with frightened blue eyes.

I wasn’t sure what to make of that expression; was it due to the shock of seeing Coutts or was this her normal demeanor? She sounds like she might be somewhat on the ‘cool’ side, passive and reserved.

As the paragraph goes on we get a good mental picuture of her - blonde, 28, lovely white gown, beautiful arms though heavy and white, solid and strong throat…..most notably to me was this last phrase “with blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.”

Did this ‘blush’ also hurt him, at the same tim,e since he is’ wincing’; or does he feel guilt in that wince, for coming here tonight and seeing her again?

The characterization of Winifred is filled with opposites. She's strong, but a blush would hurt her. She's impassive, yet filled with unacknowledged passion. Coutts' reactions to her are equally contradictory, of course. He loves and hates her while he's being attracted and repulsed.

It seemed that this “reedy timbre of voice” makes his nerves tingle. I think later it mentions the voice when they are walking in the night and I believe it says they put his nerve on edge. Here is the later statement: “Her note had that intense reedy quality which set the man on edge;……..” When we get to that part it has more to the statement that may explain why this is so to Coutts.

The sound of her voice certainly provokes a reaction from him. He just doesn't know what kind of reaction it is.

So Winifred assumed automatically that he is on his way from the Rectory in Yorkshire and had gone there first and then came her to visit after. Also, note the one clue now that indeed Coutts fiancée lives in a Rectory and therefore must be a very protected young woman. It seems in mentioning this there is a “sting of sarcasm” – it that due to her disapproval of his engagement to a girl of this distinction and moral background?

Yeah, I think Winifred is trying to wound Coutts by bringing up his his cloistered wife this way.

[Janine]

I don't know if Laura has him under a spell, but I think the comparison between a potential Coutts and the old man does hold up. The old gentlemen is stiff with his politeness and gallantry, and Coutts considers himself similar to this when he's with Connie.

I agree with this, Quark. I do see how that relates and especially with the key clue - the word 'gallantry' because later in the story the idea of the Lady of Shallot is suggested and I think he appears as a sort of Lancelot, gallant and bold.

The characterization of Winifred is filled with opposites. She's strong, but a blush would hurt her. She's impassive, yet filled with unacknowledged passion. Coutts' reactions to her are equally contradictory, of course. He loves and hates her while he's being attracted and repulsed.

That is a good observation, Quark. Yes, Winifred is comprised of all kinds of opposites and she gives to Coutts many confusing/conflicting signals, don't you think? I feel she is conflicted, just as Coutts is in a different way; or is it that Coutts is seeing her this way in his eyes. At anyrate I don't see that anything between them is ever clearcut or direct. All is spoken in glance and looks and symbolic language. We will see that in the next section of text, when I post it.

The sound of her voice certainly provokes a reaction from him. He just doesn't know what kind of reaction it is.

It seems to grate on him, don't you think? It is curious. At one moment I thought her 'raspiness' a sort of turn-on and then I wondered at that.

Yeah, I think Winifred is trying to wound Coutts by bringing up his his cloistered wife this way.

Yes, that is a very good way of putting it. Coutts life would be 'cloistered' as well.

ANOUNCEMENT

I can't post the next section of text, until later tomorrow night or Saturday....Can everyone hold up and wait until then. Post any comments up until this part of the story, but try not to get into discussing the walk to Winifred's house. I am sorry I have to delay for a day. I have very important things to do tomorrow and will be out all day and into the evening. See you all when I get here!

[Dark Muse]

I have not read over everyone's post yet. But here was my coments regaurding the statue.

This is one of my favorite passages in the story, and it is ripe with sensuality, as well as sexuality, I think it really does set up the events in the story that are to come.

I found the line:

He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination.

Though he knows the setting and the people and has been here before, there is something different about this visit, perhaps, it is suggesting that after his separation from Winni, now that he has been united with her, he is becoming re-enchanted by her.

Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen.

This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"

One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.

The presence of the mirrors seems almost in direct contrast with the passion invoked by the statues, as such feelings of desire and temptation occur without thought or refection upon ones action, but they are heat of the moment.

She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins

This was a great line.

[Janine]

Winifred certainly seems to be an embodiment of the Venus statue. Perhaps she mirrors the statue.

Antiquarian, Oh, I think she does. The statue does represent her, and as I wrote earlier:

... like the statues Winifred herself is “reflected white on the deep mirror”, as later she will be against the dark night; there she will shine, too. Lawrence really has a thing about ‘loins’ and saw them as a very sexual/sensual part of a woman and of a man. Also, how blatant can one be in this paragraph saying she leaned like the Venus as “if anticipating someone’s coming” (her lover?)...

Dark Muse quote

One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.

Dark Muse, I think that is very true and when we get to the part when Coutts becomes angry with Winifred he brings up the idea of the image of a mirror, that she likes to hold up and see him in...something like that. He later says "I am a blessed Lady-of-Shalot looking-glass for you". A looking glass is a mirror, right? So I would take that to mean she does not see the real person, but the image of what she wants him to be - a mere reflection of himself, not his true being.

You said this before in reference to this line:

"Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen."
DM's comment:
"This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"

With this, I feel you are pushing the symbolism a little too far. I think Coutts is talking with Laura and she is trying to pry personal information from him about his engagement and also about why he and Winifred broke things off. He is not in a state of arousal; if anything it is aggitation. She is putting him into an uncomfortable position and the stiffening is a sign of being a little defensive and secretive. Why would he be aroused by Laura? He doesn't have any sexual interest in Laura.