D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Quote by Antiquarian

Monkshood belongs to the buttercup family and that seems to signify cheerfulness to me, however, it does have a tall, erect stem, which would be indicative of a phallic symbol.

Quotes by Virgil

Yes I'm back Janine, and after a hard day at work, the impishness that filled me last night has been beaten out of me. So no more witchy games.

Hi Virgil, so now you are Virgil again and not 'Janine' and then 'Dark Muse' imposter. Good, I am glad you got over your little impish fun and returned to sort of normal... I thought for a time I was seeing double! Sorry your day was a tough one; mine was awful, too.

But let me commend you on this fine post. I agree with most of what you say. I made similar notes in my book. Let me expand on certain key points.

We do seem to think alike about Lawrence - strange, isn't it? Thanks for your compliments. Did you really read all that...or just skim it. I have been thinking hard about this story all last night and this morning and today when I was out, too. Wow, this is one complicated short story and I really do love it more and more; it is a great challenge, don't you think?

Ok, the four parts are rather large. The more we discuss this story, the more I'm impressed by it.

Yes, now I see there are four parts and not just 3. I agree about being impressed. Seems even in Lawrence's direst period he was highly creative, always 'deep'.

Absolutely agree. And let me couple that with this quote that I presented earlier:

Temptation and why do we do things? That is the central question of the story. So the question that beckons is whether Coutts actions under temptation is out of his free will or is it deterministic. We can decide on that later.

That is jumping a little a head/ but I see your point/ connecting it with the begining of the story. Virgil - what would be the difference between 'free will and 'deterministic'? I don't quite get that.

Yes, I see what you mean as vague, but I read this a little different. This is a psychological story and this is rationalization. He's making excuses for himself, rationalizing why it's ok to go to a place where Wini might be. So does this imply free will?

I don't know if it does, but since it is mentioned in the story I would think that is a hint that his actions are of 'free will' - otherwise why would that come up in the conversation shortly after he enters the house? Yes, I totally agree - this a psychological story and he is rationalizing his every move and action as it happens. Can it be both 'free will' and 'racialization', even a mix of all - subconsious and determininstic actions, included? I don't know yet. Maybe more examination of the story text will reveal what is driving him on in this direction.

More rationalizations. At least that's my view. And of course "concessions to his desires he made against his conscience" is I think a flat out statement to the story's central theme.

Yes, very true. It might be the central theme; I am not quite sure yet what I believe is the central theme.

Interesting point that this is set at night. And he makes a point several times throughout to tell us the time of the evening. But I'm afraid I don't see the death allusions in the story. I see the symbolism of the night as female power and mystery.

Maybe death in the female. You know that Lawrence had a fear of being all comsumed by the female. His mother was the prime example and then this fear extented to his relationships. OK, so when I say night and death it does go along with the idea of the female and her power. In this case the power is the spell of a witch/druid princess/temptress....doesn't it make sense?

Think of the images: dark church tower, forbodding monk's hood (secret/hidden/darkness), knife, sacrifice, crucifix, smoking sunset, 'day was dying out' and many more death images that will be shown to exist in the story, as we go along.
This is from Michael Black, Early Fiction:

This is strange. The notion of crucifixion and sacrifice, linked to the idea of a willed stability, including that of marriage, will re-surface in various ways and various places, most notably in the Tirol, among the crucifixes that reminded Lawrence of Ernest Weekley*. But Lawrence will not again propose himself as the willing victim. The implication of the story is that he is torn between this sacrifice and another, the one presided over by the priestess or witch.

*his wife, Frieda's husband

The priestess, Michael Black is referring to would be that of Connie, his betrothed and the witch, of course, would be Winifred. Either way he is saying that he would be a 'sacrifice' to either woman. So the images in the story all indicate this idea of 'sacrifice' and ultimate death to Coutts.

Actually I see the church as phallic. But what's really interesting to me is how Lawrence is foreshadowing the flaming lamp with the "smoking sunset" and the "swish and "splash" and "the lamps sputtering," and "he sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire."

Is that all he is forshadowing here. I feel he is forshadowing the sacrifice and the death as well. I now take back my earlier idea of a emotional suicide. I don't know if we could actually call it that but he certainly knows the results of this encounter could be risky and end badly, not just for he with Winifred, but for he and Connie. I feel that his fleeing at the end is far more than just fleeing from the one woman. I feel he is fleeing from both. I think it is like Michael Black points out - this time the character representing Lawrence, "will not propose himself as the willing victim". The sparks and flame certainly do relate to the lamp, the candles, the hearth and the blaze but what exactly do all those things symbolise to Lawrence?

I think these are all conscious rationalizations of internal subconscious desires. You know how I detest Freud, but Lawrence, though he disagreed with Freud on some things, bought into several of his theories, especially when he was a young man.

That first statement sounds right-on. I like the way you put that. I don't know though if the desires were truly subconscious. I think that Coutts, just like Lawrence, had very 'conscious' desires and he knew he needed what his desires satisified. I think the main problem was that the women in his life were in fact willingly and actively pursuing him, and yet, holding aloft and not providing him with the emotional and physical closeness, he so desperately craved at this time.

Yes, the fire is linked to male desire/libido, and it also functions as foreshadow. Can you see the wonderful craft of this story?

Incredible and wonderful. It is so well-written/structured, I am in awe....plus I love the way it ties in directly with Lawrence at this difficult time in his young life. It is a tiny window into Lawrence's soul. It almost makes me want to cry, it feels very tragic to me.

Not sure about that, but I've found that monkshood is also wolfsbane which dovetails with the witchy themes.

Good choice then. This is a witchy tale, afterall. Lawrence knew his flowers and only he would have thought of that one - with all it's various connotations. I love the image of monkshood. It is a lovely flower and very interesting as well. It looks like the hood of a monk as someone pointed out, Dark Muse, I think and it also looks like something secretive - hoods/shrouds/capes always conjure up images of secretive beings or avatars (real avatars, Virgil! ), vampires, etc. That image is so dark and so forbodding.

In summary, I think the key to this early part of the story is the establishment of the temptation motif and raising the question as to whether Coutts' actions are determinsitic out of subconscious desires or whether they're a free will choice.

Yes, but this part also, contains so much forshadowing and deep symbolism into the deeper recesses of Coutt's desires....I think subconsious and conscious.

I'd have look more closely at the story to argue this, but perhaps we should look more at Coutts' attitude toward his transportation and not just fixate on the mode. When it says that the train ran on familiarly, the word familiarly might be more important than the fact that he's on a train. I'm curious, are there any other subjective modifiers attached to his means of travel. Does it ever say that he walked on unfamiliarly, or something along those lines? I'll go back and look. I need to reread the story anyway.

Actually Quark, I did post the first part of the story text about one to two pages back, post #1674 I believe (right after talking about avies and Anna, (today about 1:30PM) and there I address this idea of the 'familiarity' of the setting and the place, as Coutts approaches the Laura's house, where he will meet up with Winifred. If you go back and read that post, you will see many things layed out about the symbolism in the first part; then following directly - the comments from everyone else today.

Lawrence often talked of trains and trams and such so I did not pay particular attention to that either but I did notice the references were quite blantant about his feelings of familiarity and feeling comfortable in this setting - even loving it here.

Dark Muse, I don't understand this part of your post. The rest of that post, I pretty much understand what you are meaning, but not this particular part. Can you explain?

This might be a bit of a streach, but perhaps it represents, that in the beginning with the car, he has the desire to arrive swiftly at his destination to return to that in which he feels most comftrable, he does not want to dely or stall.

Which car or train and keep him which destination - to his fiancee or to Wini?

[Dark Muse]

Opps I do not know what happend to the original quotes, they dissapared when I had to edit the post

Dark Muse, I don't understand this part of your post. The rest of that post, I pretty much understand what you are meaning, but not this particular part. Can you explain?



Which car or train and keep him which destination - to his fiancee or to Wini?

Sorry if I did not make myself clear, I ment his destination to Laura's house which would in the end lead him to Winni.

[Virgil]

Janine, free will and determinism are opposites. Under free will one has the ability to chose one's destiny or course of actions. Determinism means that one's choices are fated by something, subconscious, natural forces, social pressures, financial status. Thomas Hardy I think, though you and Antiquarian might know best, was a determinist.

So sorry to hear about your accident. The main thing is that no one was hurt.

[Janine]

Janine, so sorry to hear about your accident, but glad you're okay. Yes, those things are unsettling even if there are no injuries. At least I slept last night, but I'm exhausted again today and not 100%.

Antiquarian, thanks for being so understanding. Yes, it was really so unsettling and I was coming home in rush hour traffic when the accident occurred - quite a shock. I hate that road anyway - very hazzardous. Plus I am having a bad day for my chronic ailments so you can imagine the rest. Now I a truly suffering from all the stress; stress makes my symptoms worse. Soon I am off of here too.
Sorry to hear you are not feeling well still; try and get good sleep tonight and maybe slowly you will feel better. Fatigue demands rest and sleep. I feel particularly fatigued today and bad but it might be our weather here affecting me - it is rainy and colder again. I hate it!

The discussion has been very interesting, hasn't it?

Hasn't it though. I think it has been wonderful! I have to admit it is hard to keep up with all of these post. I think I am getting old; tonight I am quite exhausted.
I was glad was able I fit in posting that section of the story to discuss this afternoon before I went out; that way you got to comment on it while I was out and there was lots to answer when I finally got back to my computer. The direct text certainly did reveal more, than I even imagined at first, and I have read the story numerous times...odd. I guess one misses a lot, until you actually look at the lines separately. Do you think that is true?

DM, I particularly like the way you described the symbolism of the church and I quite agree with it.

I really like that image and now I see so well how it fits into the whole scheme of the story and ideas behind it. Lawrence used this tower type symbolism often. It is really fascinting and so indictive of so many feelings: religious, spiritual, emotional, eternal, sexual and somehow in Lawrence's mind these were all intertwined. If you read more Lawrence, Antiquarian, and especially his novels, you will see how all these mix in the recesses of Lawrence's mind. This is what facinates me about Lawrence but even more than that something you said earlier, about his state or his being....I wish I could recall it now. I will have to look that up and get back to you. I always think of Lawrence as having this kind of beautiful 'fragility'. His work is like a artist - so 'painterly'...there is a fragile beauty in is art, yet his words are powerful and a 'fragile strength'...do you know what I mean?

I never knew Lawrence was so very complex, especially with regard to symbolism, but I do enjoy it immensely. And his writing is beautiful. The prose is simply a joy to read. When he describes the white alyssum tumbling from the wall, it was the most beautiful image.

Yes, very complex and yet someone simple too...the way the words just flow to natuarally, don't you think? I knew it so instinctively, for a long time, (since my late 20's) when I first discovered his writing, but now Virgil had helped me greatly, to see so much more in Lawrence's work. So much can just simply be enjoyed and absorbed and one feels the beauty and power and fragility and senitivity, it is almost painful like poetry. However, since we started discussing his work in this way, in this forum with the addition of my own extented reading of biographies and reference materials, I never imagined the extend of his work and the depth and richness of meaning that it contained.

I too, keep thinking of the white aylssum. It is spring and our white dogwood tree is blooming; at night from my upstairs room, it looks so luminous and makes me think of the feeling Coutts much have had approaching the house, seeing that moonlight cascading aylssum....so simple yet so beautiful the way that is stated...it is very poetic.


Sorry to Quark, I have not read over the short story for Chekhov yet. I hoped to today but it turned out to be otherwise.

I think I will have to post the rest of this first part tomorrow...I am so worn out now.
Hold on, Everyoneand I will be back with that part, as soon as I get a good night's sleep.
Hope you have a good night's sleep tonight.

Wow, how many posts were written today? Amazing!

Janine, free will and determinism are opposites. Under free will one has the ability to chose one's destiny or course of actions. Determinism means that one's choices are fated by something, subconscious, natural forces, social pressures, financial status. Thomas Hardy I think, though you and Antiquarian might know best, was a determinist.

Is that the same as a 'determinist' - someone who believes fate rules out destinies? That is what Hardy believed. Oh my goodness - don't tell me now, I have to go and read Lawrence's essay on 'Hardy' - in that essay I know he did compare these two ideas and how they differed in this way of thinking. It has been awhile since I read it.

So sorry to hear about your accident. The main thing is that no one was hurt.

Yes, no injuries...I ran into him but the cop determined it was no one's fault. Actually I think it was his since he pulled out into traffic; claims he did not see me. Alarming when you are plowing into someone with your foot tight on the brake. It looked like results might be worse. His car was worse - think our car is just scratched, really. At least my airbags did not employ...
oh my gosh, you must have been flying to have that happen, 'Mr. Lead-Foot'!

[Janine]

Hi I am back again; hope Everyone had a good night's sleep! I did for once. I thought I would post some more of the story which I had hoped to do yesterday. This will just take us up to the first part, right before Laura opens the door to Coutts and he enters inside the house, setting a new scene of conversation, as opposed to this natural lush spring setting with internalised throughts and images.

The tram-car dipped as it ran, seeming to exult. As it came clear of the houses, the young man, looking west, saw the evening star advance, a bright thing approaching from a long way off, as if it had been bathing in the surf of the daylight, and now was walking shorewards to the night. He greeted the naked star with a bow of the head, his heart surgingas the car leaped.

So, here Lawrence would be assosicating the 'evening star' as having been bathed in the light of the sun, when he states ' bathing in the surf of the daylight,"...but he goes on to say it is now 'walking shorewards to the night'. I know this 'evening star' is a vital sign to Lawrence - a kind of mystical omen or 'heavenly mystery' and some of his novels and stories even signifying union with a woman, but 'equal union' - as two stars are in orbit and balanced opposite each other. Virgil can explain this better. In this case, in this particular story, I also think of the star in terms of 'immortality' and perhaps Lawrence's ideas of 'eternity' and 'everlasting life'. In the one novel I read "The Plumed Serpent' they spoke often of the evening star and the morning star in conjunction with Lawrence's ideas on spirituality. It seems that this time between day and night(evening or dawn) are always vitally important to Lawrence, in his spiritual thinking. Also, the image of the star bathed in sunlight is appropriate to Lawrence in his ideas of the sun being as an object of worship, such as in the stories we already read, most notably 'Sun'. If you think of it, stars are like the sun and made up of gases that burn brightly. In a immortality sense, I think this particular star could also be a remembrance of his own mother, now residing in eternity. I thought this when he 'bowed' to it and also it conjures up thoughts of worship and spirituality; the church image supports this idea as well.

I looked up many references on churchs and church spires and towers last night online and found that so many, maybe in all of Lawrence novels and many of his short stories present images of churches and church steeples. I will post some of these very interesting references later, after you all get this far into the story text. One to particularly note, is in the story that we discussed months ago, "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter".
Antiquarian, I know you just read that story; do you recall the tower of the church casting a dark shadow on the cementary scene? That is so reminescent of the church tower in this 'witch' story, I believe. Any thoughts on that? I do recall that we discussed much about that scene and the church imagery. I should go back and look that up in our thread.

Another idea I had about the evening star and the fading into darkness is that now he is going from the light/sun world of the priestess (Connie) into the dark witch (Winifred) realm/world of night and mystery.

"It seems to be greeting me across the sky--the star," he said, amused by his own vanity.

This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

Above the colouring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung [/b]sharp and keen[/b]. Something recoiled in him.
"It is like a knife to be used at a sacrifice," he said to himself. Then, secretly: "I wonder for whom?"
He refused to answer this question, but he had the sense of Constance, his betrothed, waiting for him in the Vicarage in the north. He closed his eyes.

But now, he is forwarned by the image of the 'new moon' as a blade that is 'sharp' and 'keen' and he thinks of himself as the sacrifice. I think at this time he feels he may be the sacrifice for Connie, if he goes through with the marriage. Note that immediately after this statement he mentiones a 'sense of Constance'. At the end I think we see that the sacrifice would be if he remained with either woman. But, let's just stick to his impression at the beginning of the story for now.

Soon the car was running full-tilt from the shadow to the fume of yellow light at the terminus, where shop on shop and lamp beyond lamp heaped golden fire on the floor of the blue night. The car, like an eager dog, ran in home, sniffing with pleasure the fume of lights.

I did read something about lamp light and how it was to Lawrence an unnatural light. I will try and research that better today. I feel that this golden light would be warm and illuminating as it "heaps golden fire on the floor of the blue-night"...the word fire again and more forshadowing of the fire at the end of the story. Image after image will appear of darkness and illumination - piano candles, lamps, shops alight, street lamps, the golden lights of the train like a serpent, the hearth and the blaze at the end....all against the backdrop of the dark, mysterious night. Interesting.

Coutts flung away uphill. He had forgotten he was tired. From the distance he could distinguish the house, by the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls. He ran up the steep path to the door, smelling the hyacinths in the dark, [b]watching[b/] for the pale fluttering of daffodils and the steadier show of white crocuses on the grassy banks.

Notice that he has 'forgotten he was tired'...the spring night seems to have renewed him....maybe to his former self...in returning to a place he feels at home and comfortable.

Again, that lovely image of the garden, as he approaches this house of his past - how more inviting could it be and on top of that to know there will be music resounding in the parlour. This had to take Lawrence, himself, back to this childhood/adolscent days and even his first love with Jesse. His mother and Jesse had flower gardens directly in front of their houses.

This scene is so lush and so inviting. I know I would not be able to resist going forward to knock at that door. The imagery is so beautifully written - note the phrases I underlined and how they relate to their adjectives...wonderful fragile and sensitive expressions. Lawrence is so good at describing flowers and fauna; for one thing he has become like a part of them, to know them so well. I love "the pale fluttering of daffodils".

I am glad I chose this story for this time of year, since the flowers of this variety (early spring) have been coming out lately, being greatly admired by everyone. The mood is so appropriate and one can feel the surge within of the advancing of spring and the warm summer months to come and finally the coming of warmth and sun! Yeah! I think I have spring-fever badly!

[Janine]

Glad to hear you got a good night's sleep, Janine. I slept better as well.

Antiquarian, glad you slept better too. I had to take a pill and it knocked me out, but helped my condition, so I am pleased and a bit happier today...plus it is sunny, which is a real bonus, too! Have fun on your excursion if you go outside today. Hope it is sunny there, too.

I can't stay on long right now, but I did want to answer your question about "The Horse Dealer's Daughter" and the chruch shadow. Here's how it reads:

There she always felt secure, as if no one could see her, although as a matter of fact she was exposed to the stare of everyone who passed along under the churchyard wall. Nevertheless, once under the shadow of the great looming church, among the graves, she felt immune from the world, reserved within the thick churchyard wall as in another country.

So it seems the graves were under the shadow of the church.

I'll be back later - hopefully!

Antiquarian, thanks for looking that up and quoting it. Interesting isn't it? I am glad you just recently read that story. I like the image of the graves under the shadow of the looming church. I found so many references online and seems that in Lawrence's novel, "The Rainbow" which we may read by summer and discuss, the image of the church is vitally important to the story. It seems to be a symbol for the men of the town, as a mystical symbol of worship or potency. In "The Plumed Serpent" a church is converted into a kind of temple of male potency and rule. Interesting, to see Lawrence's early stories embody this 'church' image, that will prevade throughout his later writings. Also, he meet Jessie Chambers in a church, for the first time or so one site claimed; I need to research that better. Jessie was his first love and plays prominently in "Sons and Lovers" as Miriam Leivers. I can't wait until you read that novel, so we can discuss it sometime.
I found a photo online of that exact church and street taken in the 1950's. I will send you the link or post it on this thread somewhere along the way. The site is interesting, with other locations, that are featured in Lawrence's works, but you can't copy the photos on this site, unfortunately. I keep a file of Lawrence related photos; I wish I could have these for my file. Maybe looking them up separately, I could find them online. I had to really dig for these photos; they're all b/w.

NOTE: my post with the continuing part of the story text is the long post, just before Antiquarian's, which now put us onto a new page - so that post of the text is one page back.

[Dark Muse]

Another idea I had about the evening star and the fading into darkness is that now he is going from the light/sun world of the priestess (Connie) into the dark witch (Winifred) realm/world of night and mystery.

I had a similar thought, though slightly different, but with the same basic concept regarding this idea, though stemming from a later passage in the story, so when we get to that point, I will discuss my interpretation and idea upon the subject in more detail.

This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

In a way I thought it was just sort of a comical gesture on his part, he is looking out the window, and thinks to himself that it looks like it is greeting him, but than he just sort of laughs at himself for having such a notion as that.

But it could be a way to help further establish his own character for the events that are later to come in the story. It sets him up in someway's, of a man whom does tend to focus upon himself and think first of himself, but also his awareness of this flaw of his.

In some regards I thought the way he thought of Connie was somewhat vain, as really we do not know anything of what she is really thinking or feeling, but he tells us, oh she must be in so much pain because I am away form her.

The way he places himself between these two women with the expectation that both of them should love him is vain on his part.

But now, he is forewarned by the image of the 'new moon' as a blade that is 'sharp' and 'keen' and he thinks of himself as the sacrifice. I think at this time he feels he may be the sacrifice for Connie, if he goes through with the marriage. Note that immediately after this statement he mentions a 'sense of Constance'. At the end I think we see that the sacrifice would be if he remained with either woman. But, let's just stick to his impression at the beginning of the story for now.

I have briefly touched on this idea before, but I think in a way all three of the characters could be potentially seen as being sacrificed. Connie, Coutts, and Winni. I do am not convinced that the line refers strictly to him as being the one have to sacrifice himself.

He sacrifices Connie by decided after he has become engaged to her, that he really does not wish to be with her anymore, and though I am not say he should be stuck in an unhappy marriage, but ultimately Connies feelings are being sacrificed for his own desires.

And though Winni is more aware of the situation and what she is getting herself into, in a way she is sacrificed because it seems that ultimately he uses her only to satisfy his physical desires, his attraction to her seems primarily a sexual one as he becomes angry once he realizes she only wants him to kiss her and does not want anything else from him. He does not seem to genuinely love her beyond his passion for her.

Again, that lovely image of the garden, as he approaches this house of his past - how more inviting could it be and on top of that to know there will be music resounding in the parlour. This had to take Lawrence, himself, back to this childhood/adolscent days and even his first love with Jesse. His mother and Jesse had flower gardens directly in front of their houses.

the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls.

When I read this, it made me think of an altar cloth, and the house when we get to the part, has an almost temple like feeling to it, with the music, and the vivid description of the statues.

[Janine]

I had a similar thought, though slightly different, but with the same basic concept regarding this idea, though stemming from a later passage in the story, so when we get to that point, I will discuss my interpretation and idea upon the subject in more detail.

Good, glad you thought of it also; then we agree on this point and idea. I didn't want to advance too far yet, but I know it will relate to more of the story, as we go along. The quote from Michael Black's Early Fictions explains this idea of the priestess (Connie) to the witch (Winifred).

In a way I thought it was just sort of a comical gesture on his part, he is looking out the window, and thinks to himself that it looks like it is greeting him, but than he just sort of laughs at himself for having such a notion as that.

I disagree with that idea, because of the fact, that I know the 'evening star' and the moon, and even the 'sun" figure prominently throughout Lawrence's literature, as special symbols to him.
In Michael Black's book it states:

We might use our modern terminology and say that Orion, the evening star, the sun are Lawrence's totem; or we might use the classical term tutelary deity. Lawrence escapes the banality of such terms by making the presences active and implying a kinship.

So I think that his veiwing this evening star on this particular night is vitally important to the story and not just one of humor. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, Dark Muse. It means so much more to the character and to the author, who is represented by the character of Coutts. No, there is a deep significance to that 'evening star' and the way it fades into night. I wrote in my last post and documented the importance of this time of night for Lawrence - the time between day and night. He sees this in a very mystical way.

Michael Black goes on to say

Certainly it is beyond popular horoscopy -- yet he is appealing to the vague inkling which underlies the debased use in popular journalism. Entirely characteristic is the compulsive or obessessional image of the naked worshipper, raising is hands to the sun, and gladely entering the cleansing sea.

In this passage I think we can see just why he bows to the star as in worship. In truth he does worship the mystery of that star and this time of evening...twilight. He even mentions that the star had been bathed in the light of the sea - "bathing in the surf of the daylight".

Dark Muse, given your user name I would think you would like these mystical star images.

But it could be a way to help further establish his own character for the events that are later to come in the story. It sets him up in someway's, of a man whom does tend to focus upon himself and think first of himself, but also his awareness of this flaw of his.

There you go again, passing judgement on this guy. If so, you are also passing judgement on Lawrence, himself. I can't understand your thinking here. You are so dead-set against him. The character is merely a man with confusions/weaknesses/urges and yes, temptations. And what are you saying exactly is 'setting him up in someways, of a man who does tend to focus upon himself"?....who does not at times do that? If we don't like ourselves, then we won't like others, why do you condemn him for that? Yes, Lawrence may have been selfish at times and self-centered, but can any creative person attest to the fact they are totally 'unselfish' and not at all interested in their own well-being. Of course, Coutts knows his flaws, as Lawrence knew his as well, and he is stating them as the story goes along. This story is about 'human struggle' and how can one have human struggle, by doing everything by the book? I just feel that your whole attitude towards Coutts is one of set intolerance. If he is unsure of his impending marriage why do you assume everything between he and Connie is just as it should be. Why would he express nearly in the same statement the idea of sacrifice in connection with her name. Dark Muse, did you read Lawrence's novel "Sons and Lovers"? I ask you this because similar struggles insue in that book and the sacrifice Lawrence sees always is that of the man, not the woman. His mother was so overbearing and controlling to him he felt he was her sacrifice and this extends to the women he tries desperately to connect with.

In some regards I thought the way he thought of Connie was somewhat vain, as really we do not know anything of what she is really thinking or feeling, but he tells us, oh she must be in so much pain because I am away form her.

Isn't that an assumption on your part? I don't see him as vain, but if so, maybe that is why the word is mentioned. In my eyes I doubt that to be the true meaning, but think what you like.

The way he places himself between these two women with the expectation that both of them should love him is vain on his part.

I can't say this enough. He is a confused young man, struggling with his own thwarted desires/sexuality; there is the blantant fact that these women are not inactive in leading him on either. The women are not exonerated from blame; they share in this. One, the real woman/financee in Lawrence's life nagged him constantly, and the other represented by Winifred plays a verbal game of egging him on. I think all of the characters are willing participants in this story. We know so little about Connie in the actual story. I wish to God, Lawrence had indicated more about her, because that part is sketchy and vague. I can only surmise he cannot be totally happy with her if he strays to another. Men deeply in love and totally commited do not stray back to an former lover. Obviously something is wrong in that relationship, so it is merely implied. An engagement ring is not total commitment; truly it is not. That is why in the wedding ceremony the priest or minister or whomever performs the ritual asks if anyone opposes. One of the two who are marrying can be the one to oppose at that point.
If Coutts is being self-centered, then just maybe, he is trying to figure out how he should live the rest of his life and with whom. Yes, he does wrong, in sneaking about; the end proves that but to me it also proves he should not marry either woman. I don't think we should hate or condemn him for that.

I have briefly touched on this idea before, but I think in a way all three of the characters could be potentially seen as being sacrificed. Connie, Coutts, and Winni. I do am not convinced that the line refers strictly to him as being the one have to sacrifice himself.

It is possible but I did not think that was the thought, in the very beginning of the story, to Coutts. But the story is open-ended so one can believe it to be so.

He sacrifices Connie by decided after he has become engaged to her, that he really does not wish to be with her anymore, and though I am not say he should be stuck in an unhappy marriage, but ultimately Connies feelings are being sacrificed for his own desires.

According to additional reading, it may suggest that his engagement was a pressured one and he really could not keep company with her or get to know her if they were not engaged first; apparently parents had a lot to say in these cases in the early 1900's when young men came calling and any 'repectable' girl had to become engaged first to even see the young man. In that case, I can certainly see why Coutts would then have second thoughts on marrying Connie, especially if he truly did not love her, in the way to dedicate his entire life to her. It would be better to hurt the financee now, than marry her and be miserable, which would only hurt her more in the end; like many young women of that day, who were bound by a restricted system and a contract.

And though Winni is more aware of the situation and what she is getting herself into, in a way she is sacrificed because it seems that ultimately he uses her only to satisfy his physical desires, his attraction to her seems primarily a sexual one as he becomes angry once he realizes she only wants him to kiss her and does not want anything else from him. He does not seem to genuinely love her beyond his passion for her.

Well, she does lead him up to it...right up to that fateful kiss. I can't see where she is so innocent herself. Why take a man to your house alone at night, if you don't want to go any further, not in that day and age, without a chaperone. I would say she was asking to be seduced that night. I don't think she was a sacrifice, at all. I don't think she loved Coutts. I think she wanted to have the power over him and her 'spell' is the power...which is eventually burned out with the lamp fire - extinquished by the putting out of the flames and extinquished also is Coutts desire for her. The spell is finally broken.

When I read this, it made me think of an altar cloth, and the house when we get to the part, has an almost temple like feeling to it, with the music, and the vivid description of the statues.

Yes, this thought has occurred to me before too, and you may have mentioned it earlier, Dark Muse, because now I keep seeing it that way and even with the white flowers, which seems to be so pure and significant. A thought just came to me that the alter cloth would directly relate to the idea of 'sacrifice' or a 'sacrificial alter', and that usually is white, isn't it? Such as the lamb is white, that is sacrificial in the bible.

[Dark Muse]

Good, glad you thought of it also; then we agree on this point and idea. I didn't want to advance too far yet, but I know it will relate to more of the story, as we go along. The quote from Michael Black's Early Fictions explains this idea of the priestess (Connie) to the witch (Winifred).


I disagree with that idea, because of the fact, that I know the 'evening star' and the moon, and even the 'sun" figure prominently throughout Lawrence's literature, as special symbols to him.
In Michael Black's book it states:


So I think that his veiwing this evening star on this particular night is vitally important to the story and not just one of humor. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, Dark Muse. It means so much more to the character and to the author, who is represented by the character of Coutts. No, there is a deep significance to that 'evening star' and the way it fades into night. I wrote in my last post and documented the importance of this time of night for Lawrence - the time between day and night. He sees this in a very mystical way.

Michael Black goes on to say


In this passage I think we can see just why he bows to the star as in worship. In truth he does worship the mystery of that star and this time of evening...twilight. He even mentions that the star had been bathed in the light of the sea - "bathing in the surf of the daylight".

Dark Muse, given your user name I would think you would like these mystical star images.

I did like the imagery in the story, and I did not mean to make myself unclear, but in my comments I was not focusing so much upon the image of the evening star itself, but rather the line in which he said "he was amused by his own vanity."

There you go again, passing judgement on this guy. If so, you are also passing judgement on Lawrence, himself. I can't understand your thinking here. You are so dead-set against him. The character is merely a man with confusions/weaknesses/urges and yes, temptations. And what are you saying exactly is 'setting him up in someways, of a man who does tend to focus upon himself"?....who does not at times do that? If we don't like ourselves, then we won't like others, why do you condemn him for that? Yes, Lawrence may have been selfish at times and self-centered, but can any creative person attest to the fact they are totally 'unselfish' and not at all interested in their own well-being. Of course, Coutts knows his flaws, as Lawrence knew his as well, and he is stating them as the story goes along. This story is about 'human struggle' and how can one have human struggle, by doing everything by the book? I just feel that your whole attitude towards Coutts is one of set intolerance. If he is unsure of his impending marriage why do you assume everything between he and Connie is just as it should be. Why would he express nearly in the same statement the idea of sacrifice in connection with her name. Dark Muse, did you read Lawrence's novel "Sons and Lovers"? I ask you this because similar struggles insue in that book and the sacrifice Lawrence sees always is that of the man, not the woman. His mother was so overbearing and controlling to him he felt he was her sacrifice and this extends to the women he tries desperately to connect with.

Well nothing is going to change the way I feel about him. And I am not going to get into another debate about Coutts and my views of him and his actions.

But there is one point in which you seem to often misundertand where I am coming from.

I am not trying to say I think he should get married to Connie and be unahppy if he does not truly love her or want to marry her.

What I am saying is, that he should have broken off with Connie before he ever went to see Winni again.

Isn't that an assumption on your part? I don't see him as vain, but if so, maybe that is why the word is mentioned. In my eyes I doubt that to be the true meaning, but think what you like.

That is just how he came off to me

I can't say this enough. He is a confused young man, struggling with his own thwarted desires/sexuality; there is the blantant fact that these women are not inactive in leading him on either. The women are not exonerated from blame; they share in this. One, the real woman/financee in Lawrence's life nagged him constantly, and the other represented by Winifred plays a verbal game of egging him on. I think all of the characters are willing participants in this story. We know so little about Connie in the actual story. I wish to God, Lawrence had indicated more about her, because that part is sketchy and vague. I can only surmise he cannot be totally happy with her if he strays to another. Men deeply in love and totally commited do not stray back to an former lover. Obviously something is wrong in that relationship, so it is merely implied. An engagement ring is not total commitment; truly it is not. That is why in the wedding ceremony the priest or minister or whomever performs the ritual asks if anyone opposes. One of the two who are marrying can be the one to oppose at that point.
If Coutts is being self-centered, then just maybe, he is trying to figure out how he should live the rest of his life and with whom. Yes, he does wrong, in sneaking about; the end proves that but to me it also proves he should not marry either woman. I don't think we should hate or condemn him for that.

I just do not think that just because you are not married to someone, gives you free reign to go fooling around behind thier backs. When a person preposes to another there is the expectation of a comimtent and there is the idea of some trust, honest and fatifulness in it.

I do not think anyone who is enganged would be fine with thier fiancee going to vist old flings, just because they are not yet offically married.

Well, she does lead him up to it...right up to that fateful kiss. I can't see where she is so innocent herself. Why take a man to your house alone at night, if you don't want to go any further, not in that day and age, without a chaperone. I would say she was asking to be seduced that night. I don't think she was a sacrifice, at all. I don't think she loved Coutts. I think she wanted to have the power over him and her 'spell' is the power...which is eventually burned out with the lamp fire - extinquished by the putting out of the flames and extinquished also is Coutts desire for her. The spell is finally broken.

But utlimately he is the one that decides to go with her, at the begining when they are all getting ready to leave, to my recollection Winni at that point does not acutally do anything to intince Coutts not to get on the tram with the German lady, all on his own he chooses to stay behind just becasue Winni says she is going to walk, and he wants to be near her.

[Janine]

I did like the imagery in the story, and I did not mean to make myself unclear, but in my comments I was not focusing so much upon the image of the evening star itself, but rather the line in which he said "he was amused by his own vanity."

Well, Dark Muse, I did not get that from your post, but if you say so fine. But do you understand the star significance? I think the evening star is the more significant symbol here and the fact that he bows to it.
As far as the idea of vanity - haven't you ever laughed at yourself and your own vanity? I have at times; I can understood the reason that amused him. It is human to feel a little vane sometimes.

Well nothing is going to change the way I feel about him. And I am not going to get into another debate about Coutts and my views of him and his actions.

But there is one point in which you seem to often misundertand where I am coming from.

I am not trying to say I think he should get married to Connie and be unahppy if he does not truly love her or want to marry her.

What I am saying is, that he should have broken off with Connie before he ever went to see Winni again.

That is just how he came off to me.

I just do not think that just because you are not married to someone, gives you free reign to go fooling around behind thier backs. When a person preposes to another there is the expectation of a comimtent and there is the idea of some trust, honest and fatifulness in it.

I do not think anyone who is enganged would be fine with thier fiancee going to vist old flings, just because they are not yet offically married.

But utlimately he is the one that decides to go with her, at the begining when they are all getting ready to leave, to my recollection Winni at that point does not acutally do anything to intince Coutts not to get on the tram with the German lady, all on his own he chooses to stay behind just becasue Winni says she is going to walk, and he wants to be near her.

I just can't keep doing this anymore. I am worn out and can't argue about it any longer; I disagree and that is it. You see the story one way and I see it another. I would like to drop the whole issue, as to whether you think Coutts awful or hate him, or whatever. I don't see how you can even consider the story, by seeing it so black and white, but if you choose to do so, that is your business. I am just tired of going around in circles, with the whole question of his moral code and what he should and should not have done. He is a fictional character and it is not worth elevating my blood pressure over. Our difference of opinion on the character's code of ethics, can not be resolved, so why not just drop it? I am trying my best to post parts of the text and show how the writing has been interpretted by others, who have more knowledge about Lawrence, than I could even hope to have, and then adding some of my own thoughts, as well as I know how. If I condemn the main character right away, what is the point of even disgussing this story?

Before I post the next part of the story, which is ready in my Word program to be posted (possibly tomorrow or next day), I want to wait for others to catch up and read my long post of the text and commentary, a page or so back, post #1693. I don't want to advance us further, before we all get a chance to discuss that part of the story and text. I know Antiquarian and Virgil and Quark and islandclimber haven't had a chance to review that yet. That post took me a long time to write and type references out of my books. I will wait now until they can review it. I need a break anyway for now.

[Virgil]

Before I post the next part of the story, which is ready in my Word program to be posted (possibly tomorrow or next day), I want to wait for others to catch up and read my long post of the text and commentary, a page or so back, post #1693. I don't want to advance us further, before we all get a chance to discuss that part of the story and text. I know Antiquarian and Virgil and Quark and islandclimber haven't had a chance to review that yet. That post took me a long time to write and type references out of my books. I will wait now until they can review it. I need a break anyway for now.

Yes, I need to catch up in the morning. I've been busy tonight. Sorry. I can't keep up with you guys.

[Janine]

Yes, I need to catch up in the morning. I've been busy tonight. Sorry. I can't keep up with you guys.

Oh good, glad to see you back, Virgil. I missed you. Were you preoccuppied, by any chance, in your 'appreciation day' thread? busy in there I bet. I must try to find it again and see any new posts.

Anyway, I didn't want to get too far ahead with the text. I really researched that post #1693 extensively; it took me a long time to write and I didn't want it to fade into oblivion.
I need a break now anyway. I have the next part ready to go. If I can keep one step ahead of myself offline, that would be helpful.

See you tomorrow and hope you have a nice night! J

[Dark Muse]

Well, Dark Muse, I did not get that from your post, but if you say so fine. But do you understand the star significance? I think the evening star is the more significant symbol here and the fact that he bows to it.

I was just trying to respond to your own post in which you specially mentioned that particular line:

This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

I did not get from this, that you were focusing on primiarly the symbolism of the star, sense here you pointed out the line about his amusment and vanity, so I was just trying to address that issue.

[Virgil]

Yes, isn't the story's beginning wonderful? I absolutely agree with this part "he's aware of his faults, aware of his weaknesses, humanizes him,"...to the extend that I could then identify with the character and his longing and his feelings of doing wrong, guilt. I think sometimes things drive a person inwardly and they are caught up in this current and this is especially true when younger. I noticed how the story is like a chain of events that lead him onward in this quest. He is swept up in the beauty of the night, his surroundings (that are familiar to him and he states he loves:

I think Lawrence had to do that. He's faced with a delimma (sp?) in writing this story. He's writing about a guy who's being unfaithful, but yet we've got to see him in some sort of positive light, otherwise it's a different story I think. The humanizing and the guilt qualify the infidelity.

Also, this strong sexual urge, that is feeding his excitement and may have a possible outlet (on a night like this) for his pent-up desires, drives him forward towards the imminent encounter with Winifred. This night described to me is a very sensual night and one made for temptation and a temptress...is not Winifred the witch/temptress? Michael Black refers to her as a 'druid princess'. Coutts not only 'sees' everything, but just imagine, he feels it and he smells it - the night, the flowers, the breeze, the glow of the lamps - this whole experience would be very alluring and inviting; it would emerse a person in another 'secret' magical/mysterious world...the night would shroud a person in wonder and longing, would it not?

Everything in the story works toward the temptation, nature, Winifred's attractiveness or should I say spell, and one thing we haven't discussed, the music. The story is filled with musical metaphors, as well as that music scene.

Dark Muse, I think that church tower is a 'forboding image', also, the way it is decribed as
"the black bulk of the church tower".
This interests me completely and I am still not quite sure what to make of it, but from other readings, I have heard Lawrence describe similiar images in his travel books on Italy, along with crucifixes and other religious symbols, also in "The Plumed Serpent". Also, the opposite is when I have heard him describe a man as luminous and a 'tower of light' or life. In the reverse this is a sort of 'tower or darkness' or looming death. As Virgil pointed out to my remark of it as a phallic symbol as well, I think this blackened church tower has multiple meanings and hidden symbolism, complex and not easily explained. It is a vey curious image, because if it being described as black, a witch color, the color of death, the color of night....

That is interesting. We do see that frequently with Lawrence. There is a similar image in The Rainbow. I've always felt that Lawrence liked Hardy's use of that image in Jude The Obscure. The church tower in Jude is very prominant if I remember. Whether Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy uses it oin Jude is a good question.

Virgil, you asked about my thoughts connecting this story with death. Ok, the church spire and the story may correspond, closer than you realise, to that event, and the idea of death or disintegration. In some way, this would lead us to a sort of 'emotional suicide' for Coutts and the ending could be interpretted as the end of both of his female relationships for Coutts.

To be honest Janine, I don't see any motif or theme or even metaphor of death in this story. I think you got that from Michael Black, and I'm just going to have to disagree with him.

I don't want to jump too far ahead, but if this was the case, Virgil, the ending to this story is quite tragic and remininscent of how Paul in "Sons and Lovers" feels at the end of the story.

There are similarities to S&L, I agree. I guess Black is going cross texts and linking things in that sense, but I like to hold each work as an individual self enclosed piece, and in my way of reading i don't really see death as a theme. I think the church, may or may not suggest phallic, but I do think it reminds the reader of conscience. Plus Connie is supposed to live in a "rectory", a residence for religious people, that's mentioned more than once, and that I think links again to conscience.

So, here Lawrence would be assosicating the 'evening star' as having been bathed in the light of the sun, when he states ' bathing in the surf of the daylight,"...but he goes on to say it is now 'walking shorewards to the night'. I know this 'evening star' is a vital sign to Lawrence - a kind of mystical omen or 'heavenly mystery' and some of his novels and stories even signifying union with a woman, but 'equal union' - as two stars are in orbit and balanced opposite each other. Virgil can explain this better. In this case, in this particular story, I also think of the star in terms of 'immortality' and perhaps Lawrence's ideas of 'eternity' and 'everlasting life'. In the one novel I read "The Plumed Serpent' they spoke often of the evening star and the morning star in conjunction with Lawrence's ideas on spirituality. It seems that this time between day and night(evening or dawn) are always vitally important to Lawrence, in his spiritual thinking. Also, the image of the star bathed in sunlight is appropriate to Lawrence in his ideas of the sun being as an object of worship, such as in the stories we already read, most notably 'Sun'. If you think of it, stars are like the sun and made up of gases that burn brightly. In a immortality sense, I think this particular star could also be a remembrance of his own mother, now residing in eternity. I thought this when he 'bowed' to it and also it conjures up thoughts of worship and spirituality; the church image supports this idea as well.

You know I did not give a lot of thought to the star imagery in this story. I think Janine is referring to the balanced star imagery in Women In Love, where the male and female are in perfect balance with each other. That's a later work and I'm not sure Lawrence had worked out that imagery yet when this story was written. I will go back and re-read that tonight. It's an interesting thought.

I looked up many references on churchs and church spires and towers last night online and found that so many, maybe in all of Lawrence novels and many of his short stories present images of churches and church steeples. I will post some of these very interesting references later, after you all get this far into the story text. One to particularly note, is in the story that we discussed months ago, "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter".
Antiquarian, I know you just read that story; do you recall the tower of the church casting a dark shadow on the cementary scene? That is so reminescent of the church tower in this 'witch' story, I believe. Any thoughts on that? I do recall that we discussed much about that scene and the church imagery. I should go back and look that up in our thread.

See my thought in the previous post on it's allusion to Hardy's Jude the Obscure. I don't know if Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy, but I do think he became infatuated with that image and used it many times.

Another idea I had about the evening star and the fading into darkness is that now he is going from the light/sun world of the priestess (Connie) into the dark witch (Winifred) realm/world of night and mystery.

That is an excellent thought!! It is something that Lawrence would definitely do and has done. Like I said, I don't know if at this early date in his career he had worked out his star/sun imagery yet. Perhaps so.

This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

But now, he is forwarned by the image of the 'new moon' as a blade that is 'sharp' and 'keen' and he thinks of himself as the sacrifice. I think at this time he feels he may be the sacrifice for Connie, if he goes through with the marriage. Note that immediately after this statement he mentiones a 'sense of Constance'. At the end I think we see that the sacrifice would be if he remained with either woman. But, let's just stick to his impression at the beginning of the story for now.

I took it as a sacrifice of Connie, but you may be right. Perhaps sacrifice of his innocence, or naivete.

I did read something about lamp light and how it was to Lawrence an unnatural light. I will try and research that better today. I feel that this golden light would be warm and illuminating as it "heaps golden fire on the floor of the blue-night"...the word fire again and more forshadowing of the fire at the end of the story. Image after image will appear of darkness and illumination - piano candles, lamps, shops alight, street lamps, the golden lights of the train like a serpent, the hearth and the blaze at the end....all against the backdrop of the dark, mysterious night. Interesting.

Dark Muse did suggest a distiction between natural transportation (walking) and powered (car, train, tram) transportation. Lawrence did that in amny places, but I'm not sure I can see a significance in this story. But natural and artificial light might also be significant.

In a way I thought it was just sort of a comical gesture on his part, he is looking out the window, and thinks to himself that it looks like it is greeting him, but than he just sort of laughs at himself for having such a notion as that.

The vanity I think is that he thinks he can play this game with Wini while engaged to Connie. At least that's how I read it. I also think it reinforces his youth and inexperience, and that this event will be a maturing process.

But it could be a way to help further establish his own character for the events that are later to come in the story. It sets him up in someway's, of a man whom does tend to focus upon himself and think first of himself, but also his awareness of this flaw of his.

Yes, I think that fits with what I just said.

I

have briefly touched on this idea before, but I think in a way all three of the characters could be potentially seen as being sacrificed. Connie, Coutts, and Winni. I do am not convinced that the line refers strictly to him as being the one have to sacrifice himself.

Good point. I hadn't thought that. Although I'm not sure how Wini gets sacrificed. She seems to be in control. In fact after the initial shock she has in finding Coutts at the house, she has all the power in the story. She's the witch who casts a spell and breaks off the spell at her whim.

And though Winni is more aware of the situation and what she is getting herself into, in a way she is sacrificed because it seems that ultimately he uses her only to satisfy his physical desires, his attraction to her seems primarily a sexual one as he becomes angry once he realizes she only wants him to kiss her and does not want anything else from him. He does not seem to genuinely love her beyond his passion for her.

Though I think Coutts actually sought encountering Wini, I'm convinced now that it's Wini who reels him in and manipulates the situation to cast her spell.

When I read this, it made me think of an altar cloth, and the house when we get to the part, has an almost temple like feeling to it, with the music, and the vivid description of the statues.

Good thought. That's quite typical in Lawrence's work. he's always drawing on religious/magical mysteries.

Hey, I think I'm caught up.

[Dark Muse]

It hurt him to give pain to his fiancee, and yet he did it wilfully.

Coutts is aware that Connie will be hurt, but he can't help himself
.

But doing somwthing willfully, is the exzact oppisite of not being able to help yourself. If he does it willfully, than he is fully aware of the fact that he is doing it, and he is in fact making the choice to do it.