D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Yes I so did I. I felt sorry for the poor guy and thought he was unfairly judged by his wife.

It was a very good story thought.

[Janine]

I don't know who is who anymore. I'm so confused. And I'm very, very nervous today/tonight.

Me too, Antiquarian. I have been confused all day with all this avy switching -hope it goes back to normal tomorrow. I was getting dizzy before in here, so I had to depart for awhile. It never ever has gotten this hectic in this thread before; it is hard to keep up. It has been rather confusing. Sorry your first time in here had to be like this. I have been edgy today too and nervous, wonder why? I feel all off kilter.

I only checked back briefly on here now and it is late; I just finished watching "The Great Escape" and decided it was pretty exciting at the end. I want to watch the documentary now on the true story; that should be very interesting...DVD's are so incredible.

I'm not going to go on and on, Janine. I just want to say that I don't think Coutts meant to start a fire. I don't think he meant harm to come to the house or to Winifred. I agree with you. I think he fixed on the lamp in frustration and anger at himself.

I appreciate that, Antiquarian, glad you consider my point and agree the fire was not intentional. I just could not see how Coutts would do such a thing on purpose and put them both in harm's way; but I really did have to read the ending over a few times to get it straight in my head and be sure. I think the fire alarmed him; afterall, he was the one who got burned hands putting it out.

I think, DM, you're probably right about Winifred. I'm not sure she doesn't want Coutts to marry, but I think she believes Connie to be the wrong woman for him, and of course, to Coutts, she's bewitching.

Yes, I agree, I don't think Winifred does think Coutts should marry Connie. Laura said as much, too, in the beginning of the story, or implied it, with all her prying and questioning. We will look at that conversation closer tomorrow. I think her laughter and his was a matter of nervousness, as well.

Janine Anna Karenina is my all time favorite book. So many people just hate Anna! Not Vronsky, no, I suppose because he's not married, but so many people hate Anna.

Is that so? I percieved that most people I talked to empathised with Anna and did not think her a truly bad person. I don't know, maybe I just have more tolerance for people, who give into their weaknesses and then later pay for it. It seems I do think them tragic and sad and feel for their struggles. I know I have made bad decisions before in my own life, so I can't condemn people who do make poor or weak decisions.

Now, I'm done, too, with this issue. Underlining text it is.

Good! I will try to post that text tomorrow, up until the concert begins. We can talk about how the author presents us at first or introduces us to the story and the characters, pointing out symbolism as we go along, of course. I just love that image of the house and the flowers and the white cascading flowers down from the front of the house.
I am so tired and I do have a doctor appointment fairly early tomorrow, so I don't know if my posting the text will have to delay to later in the day. I knew I was way to tired to do it all tonight. Sorry...

Thanks for being patient, everyone, and I will be back soon as I can.

[Virgil]

Good! I will try to post that text tomorrow, up until the concert begins. We can talk about how the author presents us at first or introduces us to the story and the characters, pointing out symbolism as we go along, of course. I just love that image of the house and the flowers and the white cascading flowers down from the front of the house.

Good. I've wanted to break the story down. I still think it divides into four parts. (Of course there's a beginning, middle, and end, but there are subdivisions too.) So Janine will start with the first part.

[Virgil]

I hope Janine can remember my original avatar. It's back.

[Janine]

Hi Everybody, I am back, but only briefly, I have to get ready to go out and will back later on, early this evening...

Virgil are you back to being yourself today? I posted in the avy thread and asked if the participants in yesterday's antics (that drove a lot of forum members batty...no pun intended there..bat/witches,etc.) would turn into pumpkins at 12 midnight if they did not return their avatars to the rightful owners. I guess everyone is now back to normal, relatively speaking.

So here is the first part of the story with words and lines underlined. That is all I can do for now but figured if I posted it you all could just discuss it without me for now; I can add comments when I get back.

I was originally going to go up to the concert part, but decided (just now) to stop here and discuss the symbolism and the images in the first part of the story, when we are first presented with Bernard Coutts and his experience of making his decision to detour to the house...the imagery leading up to the area and the house is quite impressive, I think.

When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.

I will comment on this phrase. I think it is so key to the story. First off, this is a story about being tempted. We already pretty much established this fact and so this part of the story very much fortells the ending of the story. It really is a brilliant way of getting the reader's attention straight-off, don't you all agree?

In some research that I did offline in a book called "D.H.Lawrence The Early Years 1885-1912" by John Worthen (a very recent biography, quite detailed and part of the Cambridge set of 3 volumes) I found out some more background about the writing of this story. It was begun in 1911 and then rewritten in 1913. 1911 was considered by Lawrence as his 'sick year', and by no means did he refer only to his 'physical' health, although it was truly bad and he nearly died, but his emotional/mental state, as well. I won't dwell on that, but only will only add that he was quite confused and distressed at the time and it reflects in this story; also his inner anger is very much mirrored in the story. The first version of this story was a bit different and even had a different title. The main character, Coutts, is returning from France in that story. East Cryodon was apparently a sort of suburb of London. Lawrence was indeed 25 at the time, he began this story, but a very young 25. His fiancee and he were engage under a year. Lawrence referred to her as very 'churchy' and her parents discouraged the union greatly. The 'duality' we spoke of in Coutts, not knowing what he wanted in life or in women, is definitely born out of this confusing time in Lawrence's own life. He thought that his financee would provide a 'normal' type life for him, one of stability and grounding, and at the same time he was drawn to a more 'free' type existence with his creative desires. He really was struggling to know just which path he should take in life. He was very 'unsure' of himself, like Coutts is in this story.

From this very first statement in the story this duality is suggested; young man who is tempting fate or Providence.

"I may just as well," he said to himself, "stay the night here, where I am used to the place, as go to London. I can't get to Connie's forlorn spot to-night, and I'm tired to death, so why shouldn't I do what is easiest?"
He gave his luggage to a porter.

All of the phrases here indicate a feeling of unsurity and of being somewhat 'wishy-washy' or vague; and making it ok to stay on and not advance to his financee's house for the night; as we said before giving him an excuse. However "Connie' forlorn spot" stands out to me. Why is he referring to Connie in the same phrase as 'forlorn'? Could he possibly feel being with her is a forlorn prospect? Now I am wondering about that because from what I read last night, about L's financee, L made a statement that when he was with her, he wanted 'to flee'...but this was not due to not desiring to be with her, but rather being totally sexually and even physically held back from her, by her. He seemed in letters to have a deep longing and desire for her; in fact, he only wrote or expressed these feelings to her in French, so her parents could not read them. Apparently, also he wrote some poems that very much expressed his longing and his wharted desire. They went away on freguent weekends or fortnight holidays with a chaperone, his sister usually. Lawrence, like Coutts was a very frustrated young man at 25. He also states in this paragraph something true of Coutts and the author "I'm tired to death". Not only was the author very tired out, but he was very much obsessed with 'death and dying'. I think this story will also reveal some feelings towards death and dying in the night-time imagery. Someone else pointed out that this story was set at night whereas all the stories we have read so far have been in the day; I believe that is true anyway. This story is shrouded in night and the contrast of light and darkness.

Again, as he faced the approaching tram-car: "I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."
Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.
It was an evening of March. In the dark hollow below Crown Hill the buildings accumulated, bearing the black bulk of the church tower up into the rolling and smoking sunset.

Those are interesting dark/night images. I think the image of that church tower especially interesting and would almost be like a warning considering his financee was 'churchy' and also the church could symbolise eternity or the forboding idea of eternal darkness/death....I don't know and only surmising here

"

I know it so well," he thought.
"And love it," he[b]confessed secretly in his heart.

Twice now, he mentioned he was comfortable here or knew it...."where I am used to the place" - see beginning statements. Of course,
"secretly in his heart" also stands out.

The car ran on familiarly. The young man listened for the swish, watched for the striking of the blue splash overhead, at the bracket. The sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire, pleased him.

Any ideas here?

"Where does it come from?" he asked himself, and a spark struck bright again. He smiled a little, roused.

Seems like a direct reference to a man's desires, arousal...this excitement and spark he is actually feeling, perceiving, not just seeing.

The day was dying out. One by one the arc lamps fluttered or leaped alight, the strand of copper overhead glistened against the dark sky that now was [b]deepening to the colour of monkshood.

That phrase about the 'monkshood' really interests me. I think this would suggest a monk, actually and he would be referring to his own thwarted sex life. Also, it goes along with the church spire. That could also be a very phallic symbol.

I have to stop here and leave the computer; I wrote way more than I thought I would. We also, seem to be having a thunderstorm or coming near. I better shut the computer down for now. See you all later when I will post the next part of this first section. I am not quite done doing so. I wanted to go up to the part when Laura opens the door to Coutts. See you all later on.....

I did not see you two there - it took me forever to post this - I kept messing up the quotes and the bolds....talk about being confused. I need a long rest after this story! and the avy switch...brilliant idea.......I have to run now...see you all later! Hope you enjoy my painstaking post... I can't think clearly this early....

[Dark Muse]

Those are interesting dark/night images. I think the image of that church tower especially interesting and would almost be like a warning considering his financee was 'churchy' and also the church could symbolise eternity or the forboding idea of eternal darkness/death....I don't know and only surmising her but will be anxious to see what all of your think...

I think the image of the church tower is a bit of foreboding and warning against what is to come. As it is interesting the way in which the church seems to be case into the darkness and is described as being a black bulk. I almost picture this dark silhouette in cast in the shadow of the setting sun. I think it touches back to the line just before it:

concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.

In a way the church is acting as a reminder to his conscience, but it is more or less being overridden, while still a lingering presence.

The car ran on familiarly. The young man listened for the swish, watched for the striking of the blue splash overhead, at the bracket. The sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire, pleased him.

I think where it says "the car ran on familarly" touches back to the points you made before about Coutts being comftrable hear, and knowing this place.

I do find the lines

The sudden fervour of the spark

to be interesting, and those particular words used, considering what is to happen next within the story. The word fervor in particular sticks out to me. It seems almost to be predicting what is to happen between Coutts and Winifed, as the "spark" between them more or less ends up being rekindled when they reunite.

Seems like a direct reference to a man's desires, arousal...this excitement and spark he is actually feeling, perceiving, not just seeing.

That is the first thing that came to my mind when I read that line, before I even knew anything of what the story was going to be about. But when I read it for the first time, I instnatly thought of that.

I think there is one other moment in which he mentiones his state of being "roused" but I cannot recall just where.

That phrase about the 'monkshood' really interests me. I think this would suggest a monk, actually and he would be referring to his own thwarted sex life. Also, it goes along with the church spire. That could also be a very phallic symbol.

Yes, I had that sense too, to me as well, the image of a monk in his robes, with the hood concealing his features, is alose a bit forboding or ominous in some regards, but perhaps that is just me.

[Virgil]

Virgil are you back to being yourself today? I posted in the avy thread and asked if the participants in yesterday's antics (that drove a lot of forum members batty...no pun intended there..bat/witches,etc.) would turn into pumpkins at 12 midnight if they did not return their avatars to the rightful owners. I guess everyone is now back to normal, relatively speaking.

Yes I'm back Janine, and after a hard day at work, the impishness that filled me last night has been beaten out of me. So no more witchy games.

But let me commend you on this fine post. I agree with most of what you say. I made similar notes in my book. Let me expand on certain key points.

I was originally going to go up to the concert part, but decided (just now) to stop here and discuss the symbolism and the images in the first part of the story, when we are first presented with Bernard Coutts and his experience of making his decision to detour to the house...the imagery leading up to the area and the house is quite impressive, I think.

Ok, the four parts are rather large. The more we discuss this story, the more I'm impressed by it.

Quote:
When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.

I will comment on this phrase. I think it is so key to the story. First off, this is a story about being tempted. We already pretty much established this fact and so this part of the story very much fortells the ending of the story. It really is a brilliant way of getting the reader's attention straight-off, don't you all agree?

Absolutely agree. And let me couple that with this quote that I presented earlier:

"Why do we do things, Pater?" she suddenly asked in a loud voice, glancing with a little chuckle of laughter at Coutts.

"Ay--why do we do things? What things?" said the old man, beginning to laugh with his daughter.

"Why, any of the things that we do."

"Eh? Oh!" The old man was illuminated, and delighted. "Well, now, that's a difficult question. I remember, when I was a little younger, we used to discuss Free Will--got very hot about it . . ." He laughed, and Laura laughed, then said, in a high voice:

"Oh! Free Will! We shall really think you're passé, if you revive that, Pater."

Mr. Cleveland looked puzzled for a moment. Then, as if answering a conundrum, he repeated:

"Why do we do things? Now, why do we do things?"

"I suppose," he said, in all good faith, "it's because we can't help it--eh? What?"

Temptation and why do we do things? That is the central question of the story. So the question that beckons is whether Coutts actions under temptation is out of his free will or is it deterministic. We can decide on that later.

All of the phrases here indicate a feeling of unsurity and of being somewhat 'wishy-washy' or vague; and making it ok to stay on and not advance to his financee's house for the night; as we said before giving him an excuse.

Yes, I see what you mean as vague, but I read this a little different. This is a psychological story and this is rationalization. He's making excuses for himself, rationalizing why it's ok to go to a place where Wini might be. So does this imply free will?

And we also get this:

Again, as he faced the approaching tram-car: "I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."
Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.
It was an evening of March. In the dark hollow below Crown Hill the buildings accumulated, bearing the black bulk of the church tower up into the rolling and smoking sunset.

However "Connie' forlorn spot" stands out to me. Why is he referring to Connie in the same phrase as 'forlorn'? Could he possibly feel being with her is a forlorn prospect?

More rationalizations. At least that's my view. And of course "concessions to his desires he made against his conscience" is I think a flat out statement to the story's central theme.

Now I am wondering about that because from what I read last night, about L's financee, L made a statement that when he was with her, he wanted 'to flee'...but this was not due to not desiring to be with her, but rather being totally sexually and even physically held back from her, by her. He seemed in letters to have a deep longing and desire for her; in fact, he only wrote or expressed these feelings to her in French, so her parents could not read them. Apparently, also he wrote some poems that very much expressed his longing and his wharted desire. They went away on freguent weekends or fortnight holidays with a chaperone, his sister usually. Lawrence, like Coutts was a very frustrated young man at 25. He also states in this paragraph something true of Coutts and the author "I'm tired to death". Not only was the author very tired out, but he was very much obsessed with 'death and dying'. I think this story will also reveal some feelings towards death and dying in the night-time imagery. Someone else pointed out that this story was set at night whereas all the stories we have read so far have been in the day; I believe that is true anyway. This story is shrouded in night and the contrast of light and darkness.

Interesting point that this is set at night. And he makes a point several times throughout to tell us the time of the evening. But I'm afraid I don't see the death allusions in the story. I see the symbolism of the night as female power and mystery.

Those are interesting dark/night images. I think the image of that church tower especially interesting and would almost be like a warning considering his financee was 'churchy' and also the church could symbolise eternity or the forboding idea of eternal darkness/death....I don't know and only surmising here

Actually I see the church as phallic. But what's really interesting to me is how Lawrence is foreshadowing the flaming lamp with the "smoking sunset" and the "swish and "splash" and "the lamps sputtering," and "he sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire."

Twice now, he mentioned he was comfortable here or knew it...."where I am used to the place" - see beginning statements. Of course,
"secretly in his heart" also stands out.

I think these are all conscious rationalizations of internal subconscious desires. You know how I detest Freud, but Lawrence, though he disagreed with Freud on some things, bought into several of his theories, especially when he was a young man.

Any ideas here?

Seems like a direct reference to a man's desires, arousal...this excitement and spark he is actually feeling, perceiving, not just seeing.

Yes, the fire is linked to male desire/libido, and it also functions as foreshadow. Can you see the wonderful craft of this story?

That phrase about the 'monkshood' really interests me. I think this would suggest a monk, actually and he would be referring to his own thwarted sex life. Also, it goes along with the church spire. That could also be a very phallic symbol.

Not sure about that, but I've found that monkshood is also wolfsbane which dovetails with the witchy themes.

In summary, I think the key to this early part of the story is the establishment of the temptation motif and raising the question as to whether Coutts' actions are determinsitic out of subconscious desires or whether they're a free will choice.

[Dark Muse]

In summary, I think the key to this early part of the story is the establishment of the temptation motif and raising the question as to whether Coutts' actions are determinsitic out of subconscious desires or whether they're a free will choice.

Yes I agree with that assessment, I do think that the scene at Laura's house when they begin the discussion about Free Will and Why we do things is an important part to setting up the story and the events that are about to unfold.

[Virgil]

In a way the church is acting as a reminder to his conscience, but it is more or less being overridden, while still a lingering presence.

I have to agree with that, despite what I said as phallic. Perhaps it's a wonderful coupling of two desparate thoughts into one symbol.

I think where it says "the car ran on familarly" touches back to the points you made before about Coutts being comftrable hear, and knowing this place.

I'm not sure what to make of the car, except perhaps in that day cars sputtered frequently. But there is a lot made of various modes of transportation, the tram and train as well as the car. And the story makes a point of Coutts and Wini walking to her home rather than getting on the train. Not sure what to make of that.

[Dark Muse]

I'm not sure what to make of the car, except perhaps in that day cars sputtered frequently. But there is a lot made of various modes of transportation, the tram and train as well as the car. And the story makes a point of Coutts and Wini walking to her home rather than getting on the train. Not sure what to make of that.

This might be a bit of a streach, but perhaps it represents, that in the beginning with the car, he has the desire to arrive swiftly at his destination to return to that in which he feels most comftrable, he does not want to dely or stall.

But when he is with Winiferd, they end up walking together becasue of his desire to prolong his time with her he wants it to last as long as possible, as well it is a more intimate setting walking together while riding in the car could be seen as more infmoral in a way.

It might also relate to the strcture of the story as well. For the real "joruney" of the story, and the moment that leads to the climax, comes from that moment with Winifred.

While the beginning was a way to set up the events that were to come, and place Coutts in the posistion of his encounter with Winifred.

[Quark]

I'd have look more closely at the story to argue this, but perhaps we should look more at Coutts' attitude toward his transportation and not just fixate on the mode. When it says that the train ran on familiarly, the word familiarly might be more important than the fact that he's on a train. I'm curious, are there any other subjective modifiers attached to his means of travel. Does it ever say that he walked on unfamiliarly, or something along those lines? I'll go back and look. I need to reread the story anyway.

[Janine]

Hi Everybody! I am back; but I am not feeling particularly well tonight. I actually have been reading all of your posts. I got back but then had to go out again. Whew, I must be getting old; it is hard to keep up with all of this and so I feel like my head is a bit congested now with mega information which includes so much that I read last night concerning this story, stuff I mulled over today while driving, etc. I will try and answer everyone and keep it all straight; but don't push too far ahead. When I am done answering these post now I will try and post the next part of the story, so you all can muse on that. This story is much more complex than I first imagined; there is much that does not immediately meet the eye and sink in. On underlining word and phrases one can even notice a sort of pattern of dark and omininous images.

Quote by Antiquarian

I have to go out too, soon, Janine, but I'll be back this evening.

I just wanted to say, I do love the way Lawrence begins his story. It makes the reader want to read on, wondering why he's tempting Providence. And the fact that he's aware of his faults, aware of his weaknesses, humanizes him, at least in my eyes.

Antiquarian,

I hope your day was more favorable than mine. I had a car accident. Don't worry, no injuries and basically just a fender bender but still those are upsetting. It was not my fault, since some guy pulled out of a bank parking lot onto a busy road, the one I was traveling on....anyway, long story..thank God it was not worse.

Yes, isn't the story's beginning wonderful? I absolutely agree with this part "he's aware of his faults, aware of his weaknesses, humanizes him,"...to the extend that I could then identify with the character and his longing and his feelings of doing wrong, guilt. I think sometimes things drive a person inwardly and they are caught up in this current and this is especially true when younger. I noticed how the story is like a chain of events that lead him onward in this quest. He is swept up in the beauty of the night, his surroundings (that are familiar to him and he states he loves:

I know it so well," he thought. "And love it," he confessed secretly in his heart.

Also, this strong sexual urge, that is feeding his excitement and may have a possible outlet (on a night like this) for his pent-up desires, drives him forward towards the imminent encounter with Winifred. This night described to me is a very sensual night and one made for temptation and a temptress...is not Winifred the witch/temptress? Michael Black refers to her as a 'druid princess'. Coutts not only 'sees' everything, but just imagine, he feels it and he smells it - the night, the flowers, the breeze, the glow of the lamps - this whole experience would be very alluring and inviting; it would emerse a person in another 'secret' magical/mysterious world...the night would shroud a person in wonder and longing, would it not?

I think the image of the church tower is a bit of foreboding and warning against what is to come. As it is interesting the way in which the church seems to be case into the darkness and is described as being a black bulk. I almost picture this dark silhouette in cast in the shadow of the setting sun. I think it touches back to the line just before it:

"concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted."

Dark Muse, I think that church tower is a 'forboding image', also, the way it is decribed as
"the black bulk of the church tower".
This interests me completely and I am still not quite sure what to make of it, but from other readings, I have heard Lawrence describe similiar images in his travel books on Italy, along with crucifixes and other religious symbols, also in "The Plumed Serpent". Also, the opposite is when I have heard him describe a man as luminous and a 'tower of light' or life. In the reverse this is a sort of 'tower or darkness' or looming death. As Virgil pointed out to my remark of it as a phallic symbol as well, I think this blackened church tower has multiple meanings and hidden symbolism, complex and not easily explained. It is a vey curious image, because if it being described as black, a witch color, the color of death, the color of night....

Yes, that is good, Dark Muse, the idea of a silloutte image and the setting sun. The sun setting might even cast a bit of light on the tower and this would be his "spirit exulted"...or the way it actually is perceived with light fading behind it. This darkness in conjunction to a death image is something I was thinking of in relation to Lawrence's mother's recent death.

Virgil, you asked about my thoughts connecting this story with death. Ok, the church spire and the story may correspond, closer than you realise, to that event, and the idea of death or disintegration. In some way, this would lead us to a sort of 'emotional suicide' for Coutts and the ending could be interpretted as the end of both of his female relationships for Coutts.

SPOILER for "Sons and Lovers" if you have not read it.

I don't want to jump too far ahead, but if this was the case, Virgil, the ending to this story is quite tragic and remininscent of how Paul in "Sons and Lovers" feels at the end of the story.

In a way the church is acting as a reminder to his conscience, but it is more or less being overridden, while still a lingering presence.

I don't understand how it is being over-ridden? Can you explain? Do you mean the image of it as his conscience is over-ridden or overshadowed isn some way and by what?

I think where it says "the car ran on familarly" touches back to the points you made before about Coutts being comftrable hear, and knowing this place.

Yes, even the train is comfortable to him since it has brought him back here many times before and so the familiarity of it is comforting and inviting to him.

to be interesting, and those particular words used, considering what is to happen next within the story. The word fervor in particular sticks out to me. It seems almost to be predicting what is to happen between Coutts and Winifed, as the "spark" between them more or less ends up being rekindled when they reunite.

Yes, the spark is reminescent of the spark that will be ignited between them, in more ways than one. The final spark will actually break the spell for Coutts but I don't want to advance to the ending quite yet. I feel the spark in the begging is more representative of desire.

That is the first thing that came to my mind when I read that line, before I even knew anything of what the story was going to be about. But when I read it for the first time, I instnatly thought of that.

Seriously, Dark Muse? It is an interesting line and thought isn't it?

I think there is one other moment in which he mentiones his state of being "roused" but I cannot recall just where.

I am sure, as we go along, we will find it and other direct references, inferences to a Coutt's desire.

Yes, I had that sense too, to me as well, the image of a monk in his robes, with the hood concealing his features, is alose a bit forboding or ominous in some regards, but perhaps that is just me.

Yikes, we actually agree on a few things here. That is good to see. I do think it helps greatly to take the text slowly and really look at it and consider what it all means and symbolises. The monkshood is fascinating and such an image may also indicate that Coutts feels like a monk in that he is lead on by these woman but is celibate, chaste, very much like a monk. In Coutt's case it would be a forced celibacy and not one of his own choosing. One can't wrong him for having desire and wanting/needing to fully express it, especially when the women in is life are leading him on and then at a point, suddening pushing him away. It is like holding a candy bar in front of a child, and not allowing him to partake of the chocolate. Even with Wini, we get a first hand picture of how she is egging him on, inticing him, seducing him and then pulls back at the moment he begins to express his desires to her. It is a very frustating position to be put into.

Ok, I know I am moving slowly but now I will go onto the next post...

[Dark Muse]

I don't understand how it is being over-ridden? Can you explain? Do you mean the image of it as his conscience is over-ridden or overshadowed isn some way and by what?

The reason I say that it is being overridden, is because the way in which the church is described as being in the darkness, and because, in my opinion Coutts does not ultimately obey his conscious. And so his desire or temptation ends up overtaking the warning of the church.

Seriously, Dark Muse? It is an interesting line and thought isn't it?

hehe yes

In Coutt's case it would be a forced celibacy and not one of his own choosing. One can't wrong him for having desire and wanting/needing to fully express it, especially when the women in is life are leading him on and then at a point, suddening pushing him away. It is like holding a candy bar in front of a child, and not allowing him to partake of the chocolate. Even with Wini, we get a first hand picture of how she is egging him on, inticing him, seducing him and then pulls back at the moment he begins to express his desires to her. It is a very frustating position to be put into.

But the way I see it, Coutts his an adult, and adults are expected more than childern to control themselves and to understand right from wrong. That is part of being an adult. And I think really Coutts is the one in a way that insights it all and starts it. Winni does not start tempting Coutts untill they begin the walk to the house. So at the beginning Winni does not really say or do anything to try and keep Coutts from getting onto the train with the German lady, he could have just rode away than and there, but completely on his own he chooses to stay behind when Winni says she is going to walk. Perhaps she execpted him to follow her, but I do not think she acutally does anything to try and make him do so.

[Quark]

I am sure, as we go along, we will find it and other direct references, inferences to a Coutt's desire.

Have you talked about the Venus statue, yet? That's a pretty direct reference.

[Dark Muse]

We have not got there yet, in our discussion but yes that was quite erotic to say the least