Chekhov Short Story Thread

[Janine]

Introduction out of the way, let's get to the story. Feel free to make any comments you want, but I think I'll start at the beginning. "About Love" starts with Alekhin's description of Pelegea and Nikanor's tempestuous relationship:

Good job, Quark, on the introduction! That was just enough to say and leads us right into the discussion. Maybe, I can dig up some kind of illustration for this story....Russian umbrella and golashes maybe....hahaha

What's the purpose of this story? It leads into Alekhin's argument well, but how similar is it really to Alekhin's love affair? Alekhin avers that we should "individualize" each affection, but clearly there's some connection between the two couples. What is the connection?

Good questions, but already I am lost. I think you should give us your opinion or maybe someone else. I am good at reading the post and listening. Dark Muse, have you an ideas on these questions of Quark's? I guess fatique is making me dumb tonight. Also, wait a minute - how do you spell A's name. You spelled it one way in your post and another in your quoted text. See, I already confused with the names.
Dark Muse, glad you liked the story. I am still undecided to my own sentiments on either of the stories, I have read so far. I thought this one was kind of amusing at times, but then really, really sad, too. I liked 'The Man in the Case', but probably need a re-reading to clearly recall all of that. Yes, I too can see the connections so far.

Alright, I know I've been holding you guys back for the past few days, but now you can post away. It's good you enjoyed the story, though. It is one of my favorites.

Oh, you have - I thought I was the one holding everyone up. I only need now to read 'Gooseberries' to complete this trilogy. I read 'About Love' last night with one eye shut and the other drooping. I almost did not make it to the last page, but whew - I did. I didn't want to swim alone in that cold water trying to catch up to the boat.

Every city has its one weather-oblivious guy. I always wonder what these people are trying to prove. That their nerve endings are damaged? Put on some pants!

Interesting. That was the first older guy I had heard of. He was quite infamous in his neighborhood and neighboring towns - he would wander with those 'beet red' legs miles from wherever he lived.

Yeah, that's the idea. But, the question is why, and what effect does his hiding have on the people around him.

To be honest with you; I have no idea. I am sort of out of it tonight. I felt bad after eating my dinner and tired before...I might just be suffering 'burn-out' right now. Maybe the answer will come to me tomorrow, but right now, Janine is totally blank and blurry-eyed.

Hey, I'm getting something in return, aren't I? Thanks are nice, but I can't put them in my CD player.

Yes, I told you I would send you them; I've two of the discs burned so far.*as the police handcuff me and drag me off for copying CD's*.....

I've got a book like that. I've found that tape works best for book repairs--particularly electrical tape. For aesthetics, try to find tape that's thin and matches in color.

hummm...I don't really like tape...it gets warm out and it melts and then the book gets gummy. I will probaby just put this one in a box and take it out in segments. Someday I will buy another one, if I see one reasonable.

Or, maybe the lesson from that is to eat more. I devour food ravenously yet I've always been thin as a rail. I sometimes wonder what fat even feels like. Is it like wearing a vest?

Oh STOP, don't rub it in! eeeekkkk....you are too much, Quark! I am not that fat yet. It is just a bit uncomforable to me, when jeans become tight; I used to wear a size 3 and then a 5, juniors...I won't mention the size I now wear, but actually I still do shop in the junior's department, so that can't be that bad, for someone my age. I have small bone structure! And by the way, when I was your age, I ate everyone 'under the table', as the say here and didn't gain an oz! Those pounds catch up to you, after 35 and they won't budge. If you gave birth you would see, but men are lucky that way.

[Quark]

Good questions, but already I am lost. I think you should give us your opinion or maybe someone else. I am good at reading the post and listening. Dark Muse, have you an ideas on these questions of Quark's?

Ha, and I was trying to start off with an easy question. Alekhin sees a lot of himself in this couple and he draws many of his conclusion from observing them. First, I think he notices how morality has ruined their relationship. The cook demands that they get married to appease his narrow ideas of how man and woman should love each other. Eventually this results in spousal abuse and Pelegea fleeing away from him during his drunken bouts. Alekhin responds to this because he remember how respectability and morality ruined his love affair. On top of this, I think Alekhin realizes how irrational Pelegea's and the cook's relationship is. They're radically different people, yet they're passionately in love with each other. It defies reason. Alekhin believes that his own attachment to Anna Alekseevna was equally absurd. Both the irrationality and the tragedy of the relationships make them similar in Alekhin's eyes. The details in Alekhin's story to come, however, make us question somewhat how things are seen through Alekhin's eyes.


Achk... I'm running out of time. I'll have to post more tomorrow.

[islandclimber]

Ha, and I was trying to start off with an easy question. Alekhin sees a lot of himself in this couple and he draws many of his conclusion from observing them. First, I think he notices how morality has ruined their relationship. The cook demands that they get married to appease his narrow ideas of how man and woman should love each other. Eventually this results in spousal abuse and Pelegea fleeing away from him during his drunken bouts. Alekhin responds to this because he remember how respectability and morality ruined his love affair. On top of this, I think Alekhin realizes how irrational Pelegea's and the cook's relationship is. They're radically different people, yet they're passionately in love with each other. It defies reason. Alekhin believes that his own attachment to Anna Alekseevna was equally absurd. Both the irrationality and the tragedy of the relationships make them similar in Alekhin's eyes. The details in Alekhin's story to come, however, make us question somewhat how things are seen through Alekhin's eyes.


Achk... I'm running out of time. I'll have to post more tomorrow.

Okay.. have to respond to this as well, before I go to bed.. I agree with you completely about Alekhin here... He tells this story as sort of an intro to his own, a comparison, though maybe on a dumbed down, and peasant scale... morality ruined both relationships, though through quite different aspects of it... He also wonders why she doesn't love someone more of her own sort, which I think contrasts sharply with his story to a degree, as he wonders why Anna is with her husband.. though in this case Anna loves him and not her husband.. the similarity is that both women are with men who are nothing like them, and therefore he sees them as so far below Anna and Pelagea..

I think he sees the concept of the relationships as absurd, his because they never did just throw all to the wind and give it a chance... and Pelagea's because she loves a man who abuses her... he is showing the absurdity of love here... In his case they love each other but won't take the steps to be together because of societal impositions and morality and respectability... Pelagea's because she loves a man who abuses her and makes her feel terrible... love is absurd, we can't always choose who we love, sometimes it just happens, and that is why he fell in love with a married woman... he finds love a complete unknown, totally unpredictable, and popping up in the most unlooked for places...

as well, Quark, being a Russian Lit enthusiast as well.. The Cook Nikanor's description as rather piggish, or so it seemed to me, it reminded me of the Nikanor in "Master and Margarita" by Bulgakov... He was the one turned into a pig at one point ... I wonder if Bulgakov had read this story.. haha...

well that's as far as my road goes for tonight..

oh yeah, janine good thing you don't have to swim in this cold water.. it is pretty darn cold, hypothermia sets in within minutes...

oh and that person in shorts for most of the year... that's me.... I wear surf shorts and sandals all the way down the freezing point.. which is 32 f I guess for americans.. and of course 0 celsius up here... below 0 in the snow, it gets cold....

[Janine]

Ha, and I was trying to start off with an easy question. Alekhin sees a lot of himself in this couple and he draws many of his conclusion from observing them. First, I think he notices how morality has ruined their relationship. The cook demands that they get married to appease his narrow ideas of how man and woman should love each other. Eventually this results in spousal abuse and Pelegea fleeing away from him during his drunken bouts. Alekhin responds to this because he remember how respectability and morality ruined his love affair. On top of this, I think Alekhin realizes how irrational Pelegea's and the cook's relationship is. They're radically different people, yet they're passionately in love with each other. It defies reason. Alekhin believes that his own attachment to Anna Alekseevna was equally absurd. Both the irrationality and the tragedy of the relationships make them similar in Alekhin's eyes. The details in Alekhin's story to come, however, make us question somewhat how things are seen through Alekhin's eyes.

Oh boy, now I am totally lost. Are we now discussing all three of the stories? I did not recall Alekhin having a love affair. I better go back and read that part or the whole story again; but which story is that? We may need the full month for me to get through this(these) storie(s). Well, for now, I have to call it quits. My brain is mush and I am too tired out to post anymore tonight. Maybe tomorrow, I will recover and see the light. I should make a diagram of these three guys and just who is telling which story. I am thoroughly confused now. I can't process all of this tonight. Goodnight, everyone, Quark!

Achk... I'm running out of time. I'll have to post more tomorrow.

Me, too and patience also....mostly patience. My brain waves have given out.

[Dark Muse]

Wow I have a lot to catch up on, but I will do my best to address Quark's question reagaurding the story.

I do think the example of Pelagea's story was a good lead in for Alekhin to begin his story and make his point about love, and the paths that it sometimes take. I think part of the point of the story, is showing that no one can truly account for love, or make sense out of it. You cannot really choose the people whom you love.

Though the way I view it, is that Alekhin was how unlikely the match between Anna and her husband were, much like the match between Pelagea and the cook. Anna was young, intellectual and witty, while her husband was shown to be much older than her, and a bit dull. So he could not see what she might have saw within her husband to make her marry him.

Much the way he wondered why Pelagea did not choose to be someone more of her own temperment. He wondered why Anna would not choose to be with someone more like herself.

I think his views that every case should be individulized fit into his story regaurding his affections and relations to Anna, for those some similarities might be seen between Anna, and her marriage to her husband and Pelagea and the cook, while it seems inspite of everything Pelagea is determined to remain loyal to the cook

But Anna, on the other hand, does begin to develop feelings for Alekhin because they are so like minded. And you can see the way that Anna's relationship to her husband is different that than to Alekhin, though she grows affections for Alekhin, in someways she still remains devoted to her husband and her life with him.

There is also Alekhin's relfections on what his life might be like, where he and Anna to live together, and examines how thier relationship as husband and wife, might not be the same, as thier current relationship. He worries that if they were to admit thier feelings to each other and commit themselves to each other, it would ruin what they have and cause resentment between them.

[Janine]

Ditto, DM I have a lot to catch up on, too! I did not see your post there, islandclimber, as I was posting the same time, and then I came back and saw yours too, Dark Muse. It will all have to wait until tomorrow. You may have to throw me that life raft after all....I am lagging behind now....

[Quark]

He also wonders why she doesn't love someone more of her own sort, which I think contrasts sharply with his story to a degree, as he wonders why Anna is with her husband.. though in this case Anna loves him and not her husband.. the similarity is that both women are with men who are nothing like them, and therefore he sees them as so far below Anna and Pelagea..

We know how Pelegea and the cook differ, but how is Anna incompatible with husband? The husband is painted as somewhat of a rube, but that's in Alekhin's opinion. Do we reliably know anything about the husband that would make an unfit partner for Anna?

I think he sees the concept of the relationships as absurd, his because they never did just throw all to the wind and give it a chance... and Pelagea's because she loves a man who abuses her...

The contrasting personalities of Pelegea and the cook make their love irrational. I agree with that, but what about Anna and Alekhin? The fact that they stay apart actually makes sense to me. In fact, Alekhin considers their separation as the tragedy of following reason in matters of love. That part of their relationship is understandable. What isn't is their love for each other in the first place. Anna is married with kids, after all, and Alekhin wants to pull her away from all that. I think adultery is what Alekhin finds confusing about their love affair.

love is absurd, we can't always choose who we love, sometimes it just happens, and that is why he fell in love with a married woman... he finds love a complete unknown, totally unpredictable, and popping up in the most unlooked for places...

Yeah, this is his argument on the next page. I'll get into that in a minute.

as well, Quark, being a Russian Lit enthusiast as well.. The Cook Nikanor's description as rather piggish, or so it seemed to me, it reminded me of the Nikanor in "Master and Margarita" by Bulgakov... He was the one turned into a pig at one point ... I wonder if Bulgakov had read this story.. haha...

As for Russian Lit enthusiasm, I think you outrank me on that one. You've outread me at least. I was just admitting to Idril, in fact, that I haven't even read Master and Margarita.

oh and that person in shorts for most of the year... that's me....

That doesn't surprise me at all. Somehow I already pictured you as the insanely ill-clad, weather-flaunting nut. It seemed in line with your rock-climbing, adventurous persona. Me, I'm the opposite. I wear jeans all year round and would be terrified to be any more than two feet off the ground.

Are we now discussing all three of the stories?

No I was trying to keep it just to the one. Let's not make this any harder than it has to be. Everyone can make comments on the other stories if they want to, but the one we're discussing this month is "About Love."

I did not recall Alekhin having a love affair. I better go back and read that part or the whole story again; but which story is that?

Are you on the same story?

We may need the full month for me to get through this(these) storie(s).

And if it spills over into May that wouldn't be the end of the world. Take your time Janine. I know you've got a tough task over in the Lawrence thread. Particularly, when people like me want to comment on the ending before we've gotten there.

I think part of the point of the story, is showing that no one can truly account for love, or make sense out of it. You cannot really choose the people whom you love.

Exactly, the story shows how random love is. Alekhin then grabs onto to this for his own personal reasons.

Though the way I view it, is that Alekhin was how unlikely the match between Anna and her husband were

Alekhin does wonder about this later on. There is something odd about it. Once again, though, do we really know that Anna and her husband were a poor couple?

for those some similarities might be seen between Anna, and her marriage to her husband and Pelagea and the cook, while it seems inspite of everything Pelagea is determined to remain loyal to the cook

Yeah, her loyalty is hard to understand. But, at the same time, it is the moral or "right" thing to do. I think that's what Alekhin would get at. He makes the distinction between the moral decision and the irrational desire. I was using words like irrational or understandable, and maybe that's not the best way to talk about it. The real split in Alekhin's mind is in that choice between unexplainable longing and the "right" thing to do. When he talks about Pelegea and the cook I think he has to mean that Pelegea's loyalty is the logical and moral part, and her love for the cook is the unexplainable desire.

There is also Alekhin's relfections on what his life might be like, where he and Anna to live together, and examines how thier relationship as husband and wife, might not be the same, as thier current relationship. He worries that if they were to admit thier feelings to each other and commit themselves to each other, it would ruin what they have and cause resentment between them.

That's an interesting possibility. Alekhin doesn't talk about what a future with Anna would look like. It's possible he might have some apprehension about it.


I'll post another chunk of the story later on tonight. Of course, always feel free to make any point you want. I just post sections of the story to give the conversation some common reference points and topics.

[Dark Muse]

That's an interesting possibility. Alekhin doesn't talk about what a future with Anna would look like. It's possible he might have some apprehension about it.

There is that one scene in which he does speculate on it:

She would go away with me, but where? Where could I take her? It would have been a different matter if had a beautiful, interesting life, if for instance, I had been struggling for the emanncipation of my country, or had been a celebrated man of sicence, an artist or a painter; but as it was it would mean taking her from one everyday humdrum life to another as humdrum or perhaps more so. And how long would our happiness las? What would happen to her in I was ill, in case I died, or if we simply grew cold to one another?

Here he seems to speculate if they were together, than their relationship would become like that of her husband, that he could not offer her anything, once the secrecy and excitement was removed from their relationship as it is now.

[Janine]

Hi Everyone, those life preservers won't help me now. Tonight I have to read this story again and review all the posts; maybe I will print those out so I can make more sense of all of this....I feel I am too far behind at present. I am sorry, but I guess I am not on the 'same page' as everyone else and I am totally lost, at this point...I should not have read all three stories - I knew I would get them mixed up...my mind won't process three and then keep one separate from the others. I might catch up and I might not, but that is ok this month. I am more involved in the Lawrence thread right now. Continue on without me. You are all doing a great job so far. I will promise to read all of your posts even if I can't participate. I feel really overwhelmed. Sorry to disappoint you all but I might catch up eventually.

[Quark]

Here's the next part of the story. Tell me if I'm moving too fast. If anyone still has some points to make about something earlier in the story or if you've got something good to say about anything after this part, go ahead and blurt it out. Oh, and Janine I know you haven't gotten time to post on much yet, but don't feel like you're behind. Post whenever you want, and don't feel like you have to respond to everything. We're all friends here. No one's going to get offended if you skip over something we said. Alright, here's Alekhin speech:

"How far questions of personal happiness are of consequence in love -- all that is known; one can take what view one likes of it. So far only one incontestable truth has been uttered about love: 'This is a great mystery.' Everything else that has been written or said about love is not a conclusion, but only a statement of questions which have remained unanswered. The explanation which would seem to fit one case does not apply in a dozen others, and the very best thing, to my mind, would be to explain every case individually without attempting to generalize. We ought, as the doctors say, to individualize each case."

"Perfectly true," Burkin assented.

"We Russians of the educated class have a partiality for these questions that remain unanswered. Love is usually poeticized, decorated with roses, nightingales; we Russians decorate our loves with these momentous questions, and select the most uninteresting of them, too. In Moscow, when I was a student, I had a friend who shared my life, a charming lady, and every time I took her in my arms she was thinking what I would allow her a month for housekeeping and what was the price of beef a pound. In the same way, when we are in love we are never tired of asking ourselves questions: whether it is honourable or dishonourable, sensible or stupid, what this love is leading up to, and so on. Whether it is a good thing or not I don't know, but that it is in the way, unsatisfactory, and irritating, I do know."

I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but do you agree with Alekhin here? He portrays love as this mysterious, unnameable force. On the other hand, he considers questions of meaning frivolous. When he talks about the Russian penchant for "questions that remain unanswered," we know he's really talking about the urge that people get for idle philosophizing. Later in the story we'll realize that this idle philosophizing is what leads to Alekhin's agonizing moral decision to leave Anna. It's easy to see why he would be telling us of the dangers then of pursuing these questions. But, does anyone really agree with him? Couldn't this speech just be more idle questioning? Alekhin wondering about what could have been with Anna?

There is that one scene in which he does speculate on it:

Here he seems to speculate if they were together, than their relationship would become like that of her husband, that he could not offer her anything, once the secrecy and excitement was removed from their relationship as it is now.

Oh, yeah. I almost forgot about that. It is a moment of forethought for Alekhin, and a particularly revealing one too. His argument is that his love affair is special, but then he realizes that it might not be different at all. Thanks for bringing that part up. It's pretty important.

Continue on without me. You are all doing a great job so far. I will promise to read all of your posts even if I can't participate. I feel really overwhelmed. Sorry to disappoint you all but I might catch up eventually.

Drop in whenever you can.

[Janine]

Quark, Ok, thanks for the pep talk!
Here is where I stand now. I extracted all the posts (since you announced the story) and I pasted them into my Word program...something like I did today, in the L thread. I just was getting too confused in both. Ok, so then I went over them and cut out all the junk - well, just mostly our silly banter, etc. I will read over these past posts offline, after I read the story again - that is my new plan. I am afraid that reading the two stories together messed me up. I told you, I am bad enough with Russian names! I mixed up everything in my feeble little mind. I have to stay 'systematic', or forget it.

Good, now I can see that these excerpts from the story are in the beginning of the text. However, in my text I am following, the paragraph begins like this:

"How love is born," said Alehin, "why Pelagea does not love somebody more like herself in her spiritual and external qualities, and why she fell in love with Nikanor, that ugly snout -- we all call him 'The Snout' -- how far questions of personal happiness are of consequence in love -- all that is known; one can take what view one likes of it.

I hate to be critical, but you started it at "How far and 'How' was not captalized, but part of a longer sentence....." no wonder I could not locate the text.

Ok, now I know where we are and you are right; so far we are not too advanced and I should be able to catch up. This is helpful - thanks!

[Dark Muse]

How far questions of personal happiness are of consequence in love -- all that is known; one can take what view one likes of it. So far only one incontestable truth has been uttered about love: 'This is a great mystery.' Everything else that has been written or said about love is not a conclusion, but only a statement of questions which have remained unanswered.

I really liked this passage, and I think that it is quite true. Not to sound cheesy, but love is eternal as they say, so there never can be a conclusion of it. And I think that there is much mystery in just how it works or why.

The explanation which would seem to fit one case does not apply in a dozen others, and the very best thing, to my mind, would be to explain every case individually without attempting to generalize. We ought, as the doctors say, to individualize each case."

Though we have discussed this idea of "individualizing" love, there was a new thought supporting this idea, which had occurred to me. As not only can love and relationships be different from couple to couple, but one person never has the same relationship twice. It is always a completely new experience when someone engages in a relationship with a different person.

whether it is honourable or dishonourable, sensible or stupid, what this love is leading up to, and so on. Whether it is a good thing or not I don't know, but that it is in the way, unsatisfactory, and irritating, I do know

I think that this is true to some extent, when one is in love, I do think that they often are given to question it, and I think this sets up the argument he presents within his story.

Because he was plagued with these questions Alekhin misses out on the potential happiness he might have had. Because he was worried about the rightness and wrongness of his love, they waited until it was too late to pronounce themselves to each other.

[Janine]

Dark Muse, Good post; even though I am not commenting, at this time, I am reading and absorbing what is said. Everything you are saying here, makes a lot of sense to me and I agree.

[Janine]

Ok, last night I read first 'About Love' again and have that straight in my head now. Then I read the story 'Gooseberries', which I am glad I read, because it gave me a little background, insight into Alekhin, who is telling his story in 'About Love' which is the one we are discussing now. So now I am all caught up; except, I want to review the posts I extracted yesteday, up till this point, and see what has been said by everyone so far. Then I will try and post some text and comments, hopefully something intelligent. hahaha.

Yeah! I am back on-track!

[Dark Muse]

Hehe, glad to here it, look forward to seeing what you have to say. Glad you do not feel so lost now.