March / Ireland Reading: Dubliners by James Joyce

[Janine]

Excellent post, Drkshadow! Good synopsis on each story pointing out some key points. Very illuminating. It is good to see someone take the time to outline each story and comment so thoroughly.
I think the two stories I like best are 'Araby', because, as you put it so accurately, it is so very poetic and I love 'The Dead' because I know that story does directly involve feelings that Joyce himself, had biographically. I saw a film on Joyce and his wife Nora, which explored the telling of the boyfriend's death story by Nora to Joyce, which set off a whole series of events in the, already difficult, relationship the two had. This lent the story a certain allure for me, however the story is superb and stands by itself, as being like nothing else I had read before. The ending line, and images it evokes, is just so unique.

[Drkshadow03]

I saw a film on Joyce and his wife Nora, which explored the telling of the boyfriend's death story by Nora to Joyce, which set off a whole series of events in the, already difficult, relationship the two had.

I don't know all that much about Joyce's biography. Could you share a little bit about that relationship? If you have the inclination.

[Janine]

I don't know all that much about Joyce's biography. Could you share a little bit about that relationship? If you have the inclination.

Drkshadow, Well, I only know what I read online and then from the film I saw called "Nora", which is based on a biography, written by Brenda Maddox. I read her biography on D.H.Lawrence, basically dealing with his difficult-at-times and complex marriage. I found that very informative and since I had read another L bio, it seemed pretty accurate, but then who knows? I only know that Joyce exiled himself and Nora, not long after they meet and fell in love; so to speak they eloped secretly, and she became his common law wife. They moved to Trieste, Italy. There he worked at a university teaching, and also concentrated on his writing. They did move about quite a bit, throughout the years and they had two children - Georgio and Lucia. He was a good father and loved his kids, but he drank heavily. His brother lived with them for a time, but that did not work out well. His brother wrote a book on Joyce called "My Brother's Keeper". I read it - it is interesting. After they had been together for a number of years, Nora told him of the story of her girlhood and how she had been very close to this young man in the area she lived in Ireland, Galway. Her father found out and forbad her to see him and her parents arranged that she go away to a convent for study. One night the boy came to her house and threw stones at her upstairs window and he stood in the rain. He apparently was torn up about the separatation, loved her very intensely, and he was ill at the time. Later she learned he had gone home, then become bedridden with illness/fever and died shortly after. Naturally, she felt responsible and that it had been for the love of her. She ran away from her family and the convent and went to be a maid in Dublin. Shortly after she and Joyce meet on the street, looking in shop windows (something like that) and they began to see each other romantically and fell in-love.
The memory that she harboured all those years, really tore her appart. Joyce seemed understanding at first, but then he asked why she had not told him earlier. It seemed she just could not and then he became jealous when his friends, back in Dublin, told him a lie - that Nora had been intimate with them, as well as with Joyce, that she was a loose girl. That was all Joyce needed to stay away and feed his jealous rage. It was a very bad time of turmoil, but the two finally wrote very erotic letters to each other. According to the film, when Nora told him she was going to have the girl child christened he came back to her. They had quite a relationship of ups and downs and power plays. A big part of it was Joyce's drinking and I think basically, he was an alcholic for a time. Nora put up with a lot. Living with a genius is not easy. Also, he sometimes treated her as though she were inferior in intelligence, or so she felt he did. Eventually, other things happened to drive a wedge in their relationship (complicated); those were the final straws and consequently Nora packed up the kids and went back to Galway and to her parent's house. The parents assumed the two were married, but actually it was never a legal marriage; until much later when indeed they did rejoin, Joyce coming to fetch his wife. They makeup and did legally marry a number of years down the road. Well, that is a quick rendition of their married life. Financially, they lived 'hand to mouth'; sometimes they lived 'high off the hog', so to speak, and sometimes moved around struggling with Joyce trying to get his work published; Nora also saw publishers. Not an easy life back then, and often a huge strain on their relationship. I concluded that they did truly love each other, but the relationship was a very complex/enigmatic one, not easy to explain.
Of course, it would benefit you to explore more of his biography. There are good short ones on Wikipedia and also on this site.

[Drkshadow03]

Thanks! That was very informative.

[Janine]

Thanks! That was very informative.

Glad that helped you, Drkshadow. It was just my own rendition, in my words, of my impressions of what I had read. I kept rambling on. If you get a chance, see the film, "Nora"; it is quite interesting and very fine acting. Joyce is played by Ewan McGregor and Nora by Susan Lynch. My video store rented it, but then when they sold some, I bought a used copy. I have watched it several times now. Beware, it is rated R, I believe, and has some pretty lusty (hot) scenes. No, that is not why I bought the film.
The book, by his brother, also was quite interesting, although he never mentions the marital relationship. My library actually had that book available. I was so shocked. My library usually gets rid of the truly great books. I think they only own two Joyce books, maybe even just one.
I should probably read another biography on Joyce someday. I like prying into the private lives of these authors. I am sort of drawn to reading true stories and biographies.

[Drkshadow03]

"The Dead" was beautiful and does everything fiction is supposed to do. I felt that deep pang of emotion in my chest while reading some of these lines, and the ending is just absolutely stunning in both its emotional impact and the sheer beauty of its prose. In fact, the last half of this novella is gut-wrenchingly powerful.

I strongly disagree with William Powell Jones's assertion that this last story celebrates mature love and provides a sense of hope for the characters alleviating the tension of the all previous stories. This story about Gabriel Conroy and his wife attending a Christmas party at his aunts shows just how pathetic the "mature love" between Gabriel Conroy and his wife, Gretta, happens to be. His own remarks towards the end reveal the long decline in his relationship over the year into a state of emotionless paralysis, which is what makes this sudden burst of emotion for him so exciting.

While he is busy remember all the good times they had in between the dullness, she is busy remembering a long lost lover from her teenage years who died for her out of love sickness. His plans for renewed passion with his wife fizzles out as he learns the truth, and he's left contemplating his paralyzed life, at first envying the dead ex-lover, but soon moving beyond that envying as he stares out the window at the snow covering Ireland where both the living and dead freeze, suggesting both the living and dead are interchangeable.

The entire story is a metaphor for the paralysis of Irish national life. All the sub-themes of the other stories are repeated in what could be called the capstone of the collection, reiterating characters from previous stories, ideas, motifs, and themes. This story isn't a hope from those others, but the final nail in the coffin with what those others were trying to achieve.

Gabriel thinks about the events of the day only to accept how absurd his entire life has been, from the speech he gave, to the narcassistic way he acts around his aunts and people, to the vulgar drunks praising him. All of Miss Ivors accusations about him being a West Briton proved to be true. She as the Irish Nationalist calling him out on his absurd existence is the center of the story that connects the beginning, middle, and end.

At the end, Gabriel finally is able to connect with Ireland, the place he rejected this entire time, only to realize Ireland itself is in trouble and paralyzed. The relationship between Gretta and the dead lover, and Gabriel's subtle turn towards Ireland that moves him closer to Miss Ivor's position is related to each other in that Joyce suggests the past is always more emotionally satisfying than the present. Even more so he connects this to paralysis by the fact that the past is dead, you can't ever go back there. Gretta is literally mourning for a corpse right in front of her husband. Miss Ivors is speaking a dead language (when she leaves the party and drops a Gaelic line) that nobody understands anymore. Joyce, while perhaps admiring Miss Ivors's position as a Irish Nationalist and bemoaning that lost past, also recognizes you cannot base your movement into the future on sentimentalism about the past. In fact, one of the attributes Gabriel criticizes in himself is his own sentimentalism, a very telling moment that shows Miss Ivors's own positions do not escape scrutiny.

So quite literally this story is about death, how the literal death of a person can cause the death of another person's self-image, how the death of the past can cause the death of hope for the future. It's about the death of love, the literal death of a person, the death of Irish history, the death of hope for the future.

[Janine]

Darkshadow, I am truly impressed with your excellent and insightful post. I read every line of it and thought you expressed yourself admirably. I agree with all you said and found new insights into this beautifully written story. I have long loved "The Dead" and think it a masterpiece of short story writing.
Thank you for so thoroughly discussing it and pointing out things, had not previously been aware of, such as Miss Ivor's nationalism and the way in which she interacts with Gabriel.
I don't know what else to say - except to encourage you to post more great posts like this one, because I will definitely be reading them. Maybe you could comment on some of the other stories in the collection.
Very inspiring and very helpful indeed. Keep up the good work! I wondered when someone would post some comments on "Dubliners" and was glad to see it in bold in the listings and once again active.

[Drkshadow03]

Thanks, Janine. I try my best. Unfortunately I don't foresee myself participating in next month's Book Club discussion as much as I'd like to. But next month is going to be busy for me I think.

[Janine]

Thanks, Janine. I try my best. Unfortunately I don't foresee myself participating in next month's Book Club discussion as much as I'd like to. But next month is going to be busy for me I think.

Darkshadow, that is ok, I don't forsee taking part next month either. I want to take a short break. I am in two very active short story threads (asside from this one) so I will basically concentrate on those. One is Chekhov and one is D.H.Lawrence. You might be interested in the future. If so hope, to see you there, with your great commentaries!

[hellsapoppin]

Drkshadow,

You should be working for Cliff Notes or Monarch Notes because of your great insight and your ability to summarize your ideas so neatly!

GREAT job!!

[cral]

I'm going to have to also extol upon your posts here, Drkshadow03. I read this book this month without realising it to be part of the Book Club here, and while I enjoyed "Clay", it isn't till your posts that I realised the 'actual' story. I'm a little disappointed at having already returned the book now. Very interesting posts nonetheless. Thanks a lot!

[Janine]

Drkshadow

I commend you again, on that great post. I will be copying it out to my Word file, so I can indeed, refer to it when I read the stories a second time. It will aid me in my understanding; I am sure of it. Thanks again! It is a great help.

[HerGuardian]

Hi everyone

I'm just half way in the stories, only the last four ones are left. I've had this impression that the stories are symbolizing the weakness of the Dubliners, Irish People, in getting their rights and independence. Major characters in the stories lost their right of choice. Everything happens against their plans and wishes.


That's my reading of the stories. Hope it was right.

[NickAdams]

I liked it very much, but I wouldn't recommend it. Joyce is not for everybody and his innovations have become short story requirements.

I liked some stories more than others, the favor determined by the characters.