D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Quark, I a curious to know where this number 545279 came from that appears in your post next to my name in what you quoted from me. Did you type that in by accident, next to my name? I deleted some cookies tonight and then tried to sign into Lit Net and it would not take my password, so I requested it and then they send me a new set of numbers(not the numbers in your post); I was hoping they would send me my old password, which was half numbers. I want to change back to my old password, but don't know how to go about it. Can anyone help me?

Anyway, I was half-joking with you about the Chekhov thread. Glad you appreciate my 'monster' posts.

I pretty much agree with your post, Quark, but then I disagree with the part of your post that Dark Muse pointed out and therefore I agree with her on those aspects of the story.

[Dark Muse]

I went to re-read over the story, and particularly focus upon the paragraph dealing with the idea of the "throw-back" that Maurice experiences, which me and Quark have been discussing, and after reading the lines, as well as previous paragraph, I have come to understand and interpret the it a bit differently than Quark.

I believe that the "throw-back" is in fact referring to Maurice's sense blood consciousness, and not Isabel's affection, attention or love for him. As the paragraph just before it, talks in detail of Maurice's experiences with blood consciousness, and I think the key lines are at the very end of the paragraph, in helping us what is meant by the following paragraph.

So I will not retype the whole paragraph as I think it has been posted and discussed before, I will just quote those lines I think more important to this discussion.

He did not try to remember; to visualize. He did not want to. The new way of consciousness substituted itself in him.

The next paragraph than begins as:

The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy; reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife

I think Maurice is speaking of this new found blood consciousness and the fact that the experience of it is only heightened further by the new intimacy and passion he shares with his wife now.

The paragraph than says:

But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back

I believe this "flow" that is mentioned, is in fact his blood consciousness, and it is the blood conciseness than that is checked and thrown back. I do not think it was meant to suggest that it was in fact Isabel's love, of affection that was thrown back here, as the following lines, speak of a inner conflict within Maurice, with no indication that Isabel, or any other outside force are the cause of that conflict.

Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea, and he was tortured in the shattered chaos of his own blood. He grew to dread this arrest, this throw-back, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements. How to get some measure of control and surety, this was the question. And when the question rose maddening in him, he would clench his fists as if he would compel the whole universe to submit to him. But it was in vain. He could not even compel himself.

[Virgil]

You think Lawrence can't write Maurice as troubled because he doesn't how he could be? If Lawrence doesn't believe Maurice should be conflicted, why would he bother writing about his problems at all? The terms that Lawrence uses to describe Maurice's problems are ambiguous, but all the terms he uses in this story are equally unclear. It's true we can more easily decipher what Lawrence means in the paragraphs about "blood consciousness",

What disturbs (perhaps that's too strong a word, perhaps confuses is a better word, although I don't like that either) me is that if Muarice is satisfied in his blood consciousness, than why is he troubled? It seems to contradict itself. The resolution I reach is that he is satisfied in his isolation, but the outside world still exists and Maurice is human (not one of the farm animals) and has to come to some accomodation with the rational world. In fact it's interesting that at the climax he is feeling/touching Bertie's head, the seat of rationality.

Yeah, Lawrence says that Isabel gets "a sense of burden" after their periods of close intimacy, and that Maurice suffers from "black misery." The problem seems to be that Maurice wants all of his wife's love and attention and Isabel doesn't believe she can give him everything. The baby is a perfect example of this. Isabel feels even more split between the world and Maurice, and the words "burden" and "black moods" come up again in the paragraph describing the second child. Interestingly, the first child died during WW I when Maurice is away--thus, giving Maurice more of Isabel's attention. I don't think that the baby is, in itself, the problem of their relationship. I just think it exacerbates the problem that was already there.

Interesting, although I have my qualms with it. It seems Maurice is constantly seeking his isolation into the barn rather than insisting on his wife's attention.

Hopefully this gets conversation going again. Where did everyone leave to? I guess we were all busy this month.

Sorry Quark and everyone, I've just been busy and overwhelmed.

[Virgil]

I think I somewhat disagree with you here. I personally do not get the feeling that he is truly disatiisfied with his wife, or the attention she gives to him, I do not feel as if he does beleive that her affections are inadaquate, though at times he might feel left out in momenents when she is with Bertie, and becasue of his blindness he feels there is a part of the world "the seeing" world as has been discussed, that he cannot sare with her, but I do not think his conflict is that he feels his is deficient.

The end of the story seems to suggest that his conflict is with himself, and with his own self-confidence issues, Isabel seems to be very devoted to him, but he fears becasue of his disablity, and his physcialy disfigurment, that he is no longer good enough for her or that he will be a burdon to her, but I do think Isabel has acted in any way to casue him to feel this way.

She had quite completely devoted herself to him, she even cut ties with her best friend Bertie, untill Maurice told Isabel she should invite him over.




Maurice went through a very traumatic exeprince in which he rather suddenly lost a part of himself, being his sight. And though in many ways he seems to fine a certian serenity in his blindness, and says that it is not so bad, and that he has even benefitied from it. A great change was still forced upon him of which he had no choice in, and I think, even if one tries to make the best of a situation, and even if they do find some advantages that they had not known before, there would still be moments of regeret for what was loss, and what they have no control over.

I think the core of thier troubles now, is Maurcie's feelings of low self-esteem becasue of his new found dependency and having to rely so much more upon Isabel and her having to take care of him, instead of him being able to take care of her, particualy knowing in his new condition he may be more of a burdon to her with the coming child, makes him feel in someways less of a man. In addition to his insecuritues over his physcial apperance and his wondering just what his wife sees when she looks at him. He tries to imerse himself in his work around the form and these tasks of labor to try and distract his mind from his worries.

And Isabel suffers from a sense of helplessness. She does not truly know what is going on with Maurice and in his mind, becasue he fears to speak openly to her of his doubts to continue to fullfill her and the fact that he fears she may now find him hideious, so when his despire comes over him, she feels there is nothing she can do and as a loving and devoted wife, she can only stand back and watch him suffer. So she too neds a way to take her mind from such things and where he turns to the work of the farm, she turns to the world she once new, her old friends, and society.

I think I agree with most here. Although I'm not sure about Maurice's self esteem. I would call it insecurity, if you can see a distinction.

[Virgil]

I went to re-read over the story, and particularly focus upon the paragraph dealing with the idea of the "throw-back" that Maurice experiences, which me and Quark have been discussing, and after reading the lines, as well as previous paragraph, I have come to understand and interpret the it a bit differently than Quark.

I believe that the "throw-back" is in fact referring to Maurice's sense blood consciousness, and not Isabel's affection, attention or love for him. As the paragraph just before it, talks in detail of Maurice's experiences with blood consciousness, and I think the key lines are at the very end of the paragraph, in helping us what is meant by the following paragraph.

So I will not retype the whole paragraph as I think it has been posted and discussed before, I will just quote those lines I think more important to this discussion.



The next paragraph than begins as:



I think Maurice is speaking of this new found blood consciousness and the fact that the experience of it is only heightened further by the new intimacy and passion he shares with his wife now.

The paragraph than says:



I believe this "flow" that is mentioned, is in fact his blood consciousness, and it is the blood conciseness than that is checked and thrown back. I do not think it was meant to suggest that it was in fact Isabel's love, of affection that was thrown back here, as the following lines, speak of a inner conflict within Maurice, with no indication that Isabel, or any other outside force are the cause of that conflict.

Wow, good analysis D-M. I agree with that. It substantiates my claim that the difficulties that Maurice experiences are from the outside world checking (or interfereing or intruding) his blood consciousness connection.

I think that brings me up to date.

[Janine]

Hi Everyone, Happy Easter! I have to just check in fast and quickly skim the posts. I read both, but only have time (for now) to comment on this part that you wrote, Virgil:

than why is he troubled? It seems to contradict itself. The resolution I reach is that he is satisfied in his isolation, but the outside world still exists and Maurice is human (not one of the farm animals) and has to come to some accomodation with the rational world.

Even while reading what Dark Muse wrote today, and now these comments of yours, V, I can't help but think this paragraph could apply to Lawrence, himself - talking autobiographical now. I recently read "Kangaroo", which is historically based on Lawrence and Freida's short time in Australia, and there is a passage where Richard Lovat (Lawrence) is actually condemplating this very thing - isolation or getting on with the outside world -he too is totally torn within and conflicted at times, as was Lawrence throughout his life. He also condradicts himself constantly. It seems that Richard's wife, Harriet (Frieda), has told him he must try to get on with others outside his/their contained isolated world, and there is always this conflict within that arises throughout the novel. This novel really explores Lawrence and Freida's married life in this respect and other conflicts, since they had now been married over 10 yrs when he wrote "Kangaroo". I see this very direct link to the ideas in this short story. When I read about Maurice and his feelings I can't help but think that often Lawrence felt this very same way, even though he was not blind. In someway he may have been blind to certain things, or one could say he had the keener sense has that Maurice has in the deeper 'blood consiciousness' way.

How funny, you two got two more posts in while I was labouring over this one!

[Dark Muse]

I think I agree with most here. Although I'm not sure about Maurice's self esteem. I would call it insecurity, if you can see a distinction.

Acutally I agree, and that is what I orignaly ment to say. It was just one of those moments when I totally blanked on a word, and it was right there on the tip of my tounge, but for the life of me I could not bring it to mind.

Wow, good analysis D-M. I agree with that. It substantiates my claim that the difficulties that Maurice experiences are from the outside world checking (or interfereing or intruding) his blood consciousness connection.

Thank you

[Quark]

Quark, I a curious to know where this number 545279 came from that appears in your post next to my name in what you quoted from me. Did you type that in by accident, next to my name?

I saw that after I posted. I think I clipped a bracket from the quote command, and it wrote out the post number which usually stays hidden. No, I wasn't trying to clandestinely communicate something to you, although that would have been cool.

I have come to understand and interpret the it a bit differently than Quark.

I don't think you're interpretation is that different. You're just putting more weight on Virgil's argument that Maurice is the victim of outside meddling which makes him feel insecure. This is certainly there, no doubt. The Bertie episode that follows after the paragraph is a good example of this. Outside of the that, you do also bring up that Maurice is somewhat traumatized by his blindness. There is some evidence of this, too. Yet, there is another dimension of the married couple's trouble that doesn't have anything to do with outside influence or Maurice's trauma. This is the strain Isabel feels because she's torn between duties. She wants to be a wife, but she still wants to be a friend to Bertie and mother to her child. And, as I said earlier, things like the baby are not in themselves the problem, but they do exacerbate the underlying problems. It's particularly exacerbating when Maurice is in one of his "blood consciousness" moods which culminate in a passion for his wife.

I believe that the "throw-back" is in fact referring to Maurice's sense blood consciousness, and not Isabel's affection, attention or love for him. As the paragraph just before it, talks in detail of Maurice's experiences with blood consciousness, and I think the key lines are at the very end of the paragraph, in helping us what is meant by the following paragraph.

Yeah, that paragraph is talking about Maurice's sense of "blood consciousness", but the first sentence is "The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy; reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife." His "blood consciousness" reaches its culmination in "the consumming passion for his wife." So, yes we're talking about "blood consiousness" but we're talking about it when it reaches the point of Maurice desiring his wife. When the next sentence is "But at times the flow would seemed to be checked and thrown back", it means that, yes, Maurice's "blood consciousness" is being thrown back. But, it means more specifically his "blood consciousness" that ends with him desiring his wife is being thrown back.

I think Maurice is speaking of this new found blood consciousness and the fact that the experience of it is only heightened further by the new intimacy and passion he shares with his wife now.

Well, the word Lawrence uses is "culminate" which is a little different. Culminate means it ends in his passion for his wife, whereas heighten would mean that his passion for his wife is just a part of his "blood consciousness." While this probably seems insignificant, it is important for trying to decide what the subject of the next sentence is. With L using culminate, it means that Maurice's passion is what's being checked and not just "blood consciousness."

I believe this "flow" that is mentioned, is in fact his blood consciousness, and it is the blood conciseness than that is checked and thrown back. I do not think it was meant to suggest that it was in fact Isabel's love, of affection that was thrown back here, as the following lines, speak of a inner conflict within Maurice, with no indication that Isabel, or any other outside force are the cause of that conflict.

You're right it's not Isabel's love which is thrown back; it's Maurice's desire which is. In general, yes, Maurice's "blood consciousness" is checked at times in this story, and that does lead to him feeling depressed or anxious. But, in this paragraph, Lawrence specifies something a little more narrow than just "blood consciousness" in general.


Hopefully that makes sense and it didn't bore people too much. I didn't mean to go to such great lengths over one paragraph.

[Dark Muse]

Yet, there is another dimension of the married couple's trouble that doesn't have anything to do with outside influence or Maurice's trauma. This is the strain Isabel feels because she's torn between duties. She wants to be a wife, but she still wants to be a friend to Bertie and mother to her child. And, as I said earlier, things like the baby are not in themselves the problem, but they do exacerbate the underlying problems. It's particularly exacerbating when Maurice is in one of his "blood consciousness" moods which culminate in a passion for his wife.

It seems the underlining problem the two of them are having is Maurice's inabaity to communicate to Isabel the reasons for his sense of depression. He does not know how to talk to her about his doubts and fears he has regaurding his insecurity about his blindness and her sense in helplessness for not understanding what is going on.

Her desire to want to see Bertie, or invite the outside world in, seems to stem from her need to distract her mind from the sense of helplessness she feels about Maurice, just as Maurice tries to distract his mind from his fears, by turning to the work on the farm.

But they both seem happiest when the retreat back into thier solitude with each other. Thier efforts to interact with others always ends up failing in the end.

Well, the word Lawrence uses is "culminate" which is a little different. Culminate means it ends in his passion for his wife, whereas heighten would mean that his passion for his wife is just a part of his "blood consciousness." While this probably seems insignificant, it is important for trying to decide what the subject of the next sentence is. With L using culminate, it means that Maurice's passion is what's being checked and not just "blood consciousness."

You're right it's not Isabel's love which is thrown back; it's Maurice's desire which is. In general, yes, Maurice's "blood consciousness" is checked at times in this story, and that does lead to him feeling depressed or anxious. But, in this paragraph, Lawrence specifies something a little more narrow than just "blood consciousness" in general.

Other than that one example which is left a bit vauge, I do not see any evidence within the story elsewhere that seems to suggest Isabel does anything to check, or throw-back Maurice's passion or thier intimacy together.

And the following lines, state that whatever anxieties Maurice is going through, are coming from within himself. Though it does not acutally seem to indicate such within the story, Maurice might inwardly feel as if his desire is being thrown-back, but he is not given any real reason from his wife to belive this, from what I can see.

[Quark]

It seems the underlining problem the two of them are having is Maurice's inabaity to communicate to Isabel the reasons for his sense of depression. He does not know how to talk to her about his doubts and fears he has regaurding his insecurity about his blindness and her sense in helplessness for not understanding what is going on.

Her desire to want to see Bertie, or invite the outside world in, seems to stem from her need to distract her mind from the sense of helplessness she feels about Maurice, just as Maurice tries to distract his mind from his fears, by turning to the work on the farm.

But they both seem happiest when the retreat back into thier solitude with each other. Thier efforts to interact with others always ends up failing in the end.

Alright, but however you want to frame their problems, it matters very little in that paragraph.

Other than that one example which is left a bit vauge, I do not see any evidence within the story elsewhere that seems to suggest Isabel does anything to check, or throw-back Maurice's passion or thier intimacy together.

I'm not saying that Isabel is intentionally checking Maurice. I was only pointing out that her split attention puts a strain on their relationship which might be some of the reason why Maurice feels like his love and desire is checked sometime. I did quote some stuff about this in my other posts.

And the following lines, state that whatever anxieties Maurice is going through, are coming from within himself. Though it does not acutally seem to indicate such within the story, Maurice might inwardly feel as if his desire is being thrown-back, but he is not given any real reason from his wife to belive this, from what I can see.

Lawrence says, "But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him." It says "then"--meaning that this comes after the check. All the rest of the paragraph explains the aftermath of the check and not the check itself. The rest is about what's going on inside of him, but that doesn't mean the check comes from within.

[Janine]

I have been reading all of your posts; staying in the background is kind of interesting; because you know me, normally I write those 'epic' posts. You two could debate this issue until doomsday I believe, but I think you will come up with only one true explanation, for the conflict between Maurice and Isabel or the comflict within Maurice, the second being more prominent.
The conflict is much as I stated before. I seem to have gotten skimmed over (post #1221). Lawrence and his own wife were not that different than this couple in "The Blind Man" in this way - that Lawrence and Frieda, as man and wife, had a great passion between them, what Lawrence would term the 'blood consciousness'; however, at times this was 'thrown back' for Lawrence, and many conflicts would arise 'within' Lawrence, and there would also be direct 'confrontations' with Freida. When I read this part of this story, it very much reminded me of parts of L's novels, where Lawrence has his protagonist(representing L's thoughts) condemplating this very thing in a relationship and never truly arriving at a final, or practical, solution to this aspect of married life. I think that Lawrence was very much a idealist and had a 'great intensity' at times, that he himself felt difficult to deal with on a daily basis. I was reading about another artist with TB and it was said, this actually was a sign/sumptom of the illness - this intensity and over-sensitivity. I feel that when Lawrence wrote this story, he very closely could identify with his character of Maurice. Like Maurice, Lawrence also was damaged and did not always feel comfortable in the 'social' world; and from that damage he became 'overly sensitive'; this is what makes L such a great novelist and an artist. Consider this: that this damage was both pychological (his mother/family influences) and physical (his lifelong battle with his lungs). Many times in L's stories these deeper thoughts are manifest in his work; they surface in the form of other characters, who were imagined/formed by Lawrence, and convey his ideas. These inner thoughts were of a kind of deep human confusion and I am not sure they can ever be totally understood by one, who does not experience what Lawrence felt. We can only imagine at the way that Maurice and Isabel feel. Human relationships are very complex. I don't know if we can reliably state in words, just what is going on in the passages about these feelings that both are experiencing. I think that we can sense this as Maurice senses things, but to actually resolve this issue is beyond our total comprehension.
I hope all that makes some sense. I think I need more coffee.

Hope everyone had a nice Easter or spring day!

[Virgil]

Good post Janine. The only objection i would have is that isabel does not strike me as Frieda. But you would know better. But Lawrence was an idealist (except for the contradictions which I think he includes to infuse realism into the work) and Maurice seems to be created as a character molded with Lawrence's ideal of blood consciousness.

[Janine]

Virgil, thanks for that compliment and reading my posts; glad you understood what I was getting at. No, I did not think Isabel like Freida, even though I was drawing the comparisons of the married couples. No, I only felt that the feelings that Maurice was having, about being sociable and about his confusions in the love of his wife, were very much like Lawrence's own thoughts and struggles, at times. I will try and post an excerpt from "Kangaroo" and you will see what I am driving at. That book in one chapter especially, really explored this complex and confusing state that Richard (Lawrence) was experiencing internally, at the time. I found this one chapter extremely interesting and revealing of Lawrence's ideas and thoughts on marriage and the social aspects of life outside his marriage.

For now, I can't post because I am so busy and have to go out again today. This week might be a busy one for me, because on Sunday we are planning the baby shower for my daughter-in-law and son. Therefore I may be in and out of this thread sporadically. I think basically we have commented on the entire story rather thoroughly. What do you think everyone?

[Dark Muse]

I would have to agree, I think we have very throughly gone over all the points within the story, and covered it quite well.

[Virgil]

I would like tocover the climax before we end it. I'll do so when i get home tonight. And hopefully find my book. I can't seem to find where I placed it.