March / Ireland Reading: Dubliners by James Joyce

[ben.!]

I guess Dubliners requires a re-reading.

Can someone explain the significance of The Dead?

I personally found a lot of it was un-needed, and could have been cut into maybe two to three different stories.

[Drkshadow03]

As for your question, ''it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.'' My answer: I am not sure, either! We see that the deceased priest lived a dissolute life --- did Joyce mean that he should have set a better example? As you just read in Jones, Joyce ''makes a comment on the moral history of mankind without moralizing''. So what, then, was he doing? I honestly do not know.

That is why I brought up the issue. Since I don't know the answer, what do you think he was driving at?

Ah, a true philosophical question. It's always interesting when the person raising the question isn't sure.

I'll put the question a different way: Can Joyce be a Catholic drawing on Catholic symbolism, but also be critical of the institutions and people's interpretations of Catholicism?

That's how I would read the questions you raise, particularly in light of the Trinity symbols you mentioned. They are almost always incomplete trinities. It seems to me someone caught up in their Catholicism might be very critical of priests and fellow Catholics who fall short of their standards, but for the purpose of getting at a purer religion perhaps.

This is tricky because I don't know enough about Joyces' biography and particular beliefs. Yet I would definitely say he depicts many of his priests in less than flattering light.

The obvious example you mentioned from "The Sisters," but also in stories like "Ivy Day in the Committee Room" where the priest himself is depicted as more concerned with business and money than traditional priestly duties (see my earlier post about that story to think about how this fits in with the larger theme). Seriously, he can't sit with his flock for a few minutes before rushing off? "Grace" itself is meant as comical and ironic filled with misinformation about the church doctrine and history. Not to mention the end has a shallow sermonizing that compares spirituality with a divine accounting.

Many of the stories, the more religious ones (the ones mentioned above) and the artistic ones ("Little Clouds" and "A Mother"), all seem to point to Joyce stating that art, religion, political participation has transformed into a business transaction, and that this is an extremely bad development in these three centers of human existence (the aesthetic, the spiritual, the political).

If you don't have art, politics, or religion/sprituality to be passionate about, then what do you have?

[Janine]

I specifically addressed DrkShadow and responded by saying ''as for your question''.

Hope this clarifies it.

Suit yourself but it makes your posts difficult to read when you only use quotation marks to indicate the person you are quoting. That is why we have a quoting format here - it makes the passages stand out and one can see the comments by the current poster separately. I for one find your posts take longer to comprehend.

I would have to fully agree with darkshadow on his last post about the religious corruption or shady business aspects that are revealed, in the Joyce's short stories, in relation to the church. There is not only political corruption going on in his stories, but also church corruption.

ben.! I think a second reading of 'The Dead' might give you a better perspective of just how the various characters and the evening together and the internal thoughts of Gabriel, lead up to the ending of the story. There is a definite progression to the time that Greta and he will be left alone. You are missing much, if you think the other elements are not needed to tell this story well. For one thing there is a sense of 'forshadowing' throughout the story and the 'snow' acts as another character. The bonding or the isolation of the various characters; bonding, such as the old aunts and the family/friend themes run through the story and make the ending more poignant and meaningful. The last lines of the story are truly amazing and I recall on my first reading, just sitting there with the book remaining open to the last page and not wanting to close it. I knew at that moment I had just read something quite unusual and special and lasting.

[hellsapoppin]

Drkshadow - I like the way you phrased it when you said ''philosophical question'' in your excellent post. There are no right or wrong answers in interpreting what the author was driving at. Indeed, the freedom and flexibility to interpret along with our varying views is what makes it art.

[Janine]

Drkshadow - I like the way you phrased it when you said ''philosophical question'' in your excellent post. There are no right or wrong answers in interpreting what the author was driving at. Indeed, the freedom and flexibility to interpret along with our varying views is what makes it art.

I agree with that. Indeed all individuals will interpret the stories to suit themselves and that is 'art.' The only way we could truly be sure of what Joyce means by the stories and their meanings is if the author stood before us and explained himself. I don't think that is going to happen so we have to come up with our own conclusions or take from the stories our own deeper meanings. For one, personal experience always plays a role, in how we see a story. We are all tainted with our own prejudices/likes and dislike, and so we bring those into play as we read and discuss a story or novel. I, for one, think this is what makes us read and connect with certain stories and authors, and reject others. We can't completely depend on a commentary or critic to tell us the author's intentions or correct interpretations; we can only use those as tools, to further stimulate our own unique minds, and help us to think in various directions and present us with various new ideas on the texts; that is why we are here to exchange those ideas in open discussion groups. I often quote commentators myself, but I try and also discuss, what they are saying or ask for feedback from other posters, to see if their ideas are feasible. It is good to draw on a deep well of information that is available to us, about any author or any writing. But, like histories that are written by men, we can only take those ideas and consider them as accurate or reject them as not. In the end, it has to be left to individual choice, as to what we take away from the story/novel/book. This is what makes discussion so vital and such a fine learning experience.

[hellsapoppin]

Janine,

Another excellent comment! That's what makes this forum so special.

[Janine]

hellsapoppin, thank you so much for your kind compliment.

Good news just came to me. My library's online audiobook download has a copy available of "Dubliners" audiobook. I am thrilled. I can review the book by listening to a narration. At least I can check the book out for 14 days time, but no copies are alowed on this book. There are others they do alow copying to MP3 players or CD's. Well, one cannot have everything, right? I am quite fortunate and I am sure the narrator will lend a certain new perspective to the stories.

[Drkshadow03]

The only way we could truly be sure of what Joyce means by the stories and their meanings is if the author stood before us and explained himself.

Perhaps not even then as various literary theories like the Intentional Fallacy, The Death of the Author, and deconstructionism have attempted to show.

[Janine]

Perhaps not even then as various literary theories like the Intentional Fallacy, The Death of the Author, and deconstructionism have attempted to show.

Perhaps but I think, unfortunately, that the presense of the author would be the only way we would all truly know his intentions. We can merely surmise what they are, but that is half the fun of discussing, isn't it? So cheer up and don't cry Drkshadow. Maybe we will all meet somewhere in an 'alternate universe' after death. It could be a fun party, with noteworthy individuals. Have you visited the "bring them back from the dead" thread? It is emensely entertaining.

[ben.!]

ben.! I think a second reading of 'The Dead' might give you a better perspective of just how the various characters and the evening together and the internal thoughts of Gabriel, lead up to the ending of the story. There is a definite progression to the time that Greta and he will be left alone. You are missing much, if you think the other elements are not needed to tell this story well. For one thing there is a sense of 'forshadowing' throughout the story and the 'snow' acts as another character. The bonding or the isolation of the various characters; bonding, such as the old aunts and the family/friend themes run through the story and make the ending more poignant and meaningful. The last lines of the story are truly amazing and I recall on my first reading, just sitting there with the book remaining open to the last page and not wanting to close it. I knew at that moment I had just read something quite unusual and special and lasting.

Yeah, I see what your saying. I think my problem is this. I read Dubliners and when I read it in the back of my mind was where I had read a few articles about its hazardous publishing history. Joyce was rejected by nearly all the publishing houses in 1907 on grounds that Dubliners' stories were seen as too raunchy for the public. So I read The Dead and my mind kept searching for all these so-called 'naughty' bits. I couldn't find any all throughout Dubliners.

However, in The Dead, whenever it would say something like 'Gabriel went to entertain the two young ladies in the next room', I would automatically think 'Oooh, they're makin' love!'. It was quite a funny experience. Especially when things like 'He could hear the floorboards creak on the floor above while in the pantry'.

But I couldn't find anything remotely raunchy in The Dead or Dubliners, bar my own imagined goings-on. The only thing I found was in a reference note that stated that the title 'Eveline' Joyce might have used as a joke to make fun of the publishing press, as 'Eveline' is meant to be a word for prostitute or something...

So yeah, I kind of skimmed over all the symbolism in my search for Joyce's sexual allusions. Of which there were none, so I failed in my search on that account.

So if anyone could tell me if they find any sexual allusions OR hidden symbolism, I would much like to know about it!

PS. I myself did not get the feeling the old man was masturbating in An Encounter. Maybe I missed that too!

[Janine]

ben.! well we now know where your mind is. Maybe you should read some D.H. Lawrence instead; "Lady Chatterly's Lover" might be to your liking. It was banned, as well; but I can guarentee it is a lot more sexual than "Dubliners"; for that matter so is "Sons and Lovers" and many of his other early novels.

Now in 'The Encounter' the only thing I could detect was that the guy was a pedifile(sp?) - child molestor, and the boys were probaby in some danger, but unharmed, since they retreated quickly. I can imagine in Joyce's day, how that story would go over...not well! Society was stuffy about these things.

[hellsapoppin]

So if anyone could tell me if they find any sexual allusions OR hidden symbolism, I would much like to know about it!



a few symbols come to mind:

"totties" in 'An Encounter'

"The Madam" in 'The Boarding House'

"cocottes" and "the secrets of religious houses on the Continent" in 'A Little Cloud'

All symbolize sexual misconduct.

[hellsapoppin]

A wonderful St Patrick's Day one + all!



http://www.alighthouse.com/lepclovertop.jpg

[superunknown]

I'm going to Dublin tomorrow! I'll take my book along with me but I don't think I'll have time for much reading or observing how Joyce's portrait of Dublin relates to the modern day city, what with all the Guinness!

[Drkshadow03]

Many have pointed out that Joyces’ work is extremely political. At times he criticizes class conditions (like in “After the Race” when he writes “ . . . sightseers had gathered in clumps to watch the cars careering homeward and through this channel of poverty and inaction the Continent sped its wealth and industry. Now and again the clumps of people raised the cheer of the gratefully oppressed”), he criticizes the limitations imposed upon women through gender, and through these critiques makes a case for Irish nationalism (though, he criticizes the state of Irish politics concretely as well). It would be a mistake to suggest that is only what is going on within these stories; it amazes one how the themes also transcend political commentary. I think by pondering these issues, however, we can consider the more interesting issue as to why a Catholic born writer from Ireland has so many references to the Jews in his work. His work does not entirely escape anti-Semitic stereotypes often depicting Jews as rich and greedy (among other undesirable qualities), but I think he may be getting at a more intimate political connection; the Jews and Irish are symbolically linked through the desire of a Jewish state circulating at the time and the desire for Irish home rule. The Jews figure as a symbolic presence in the texts that always reminds the readers of the Irish’s own plight of oppression and lack of self-rule. It also hammers home how international in scale many of his seemingly local themes happen to be.

“An Encounter” has to be one of my favorite stories in the collection. This story about two boys playing hooky from school perfectly captures the voice of a pervert pedophile who the boys encounter said to be based off a real life experience Joyce had at their age. The language is so subtle, yet powerful when the old man speaks of wanting to give the boys a whipping, a “nice warm whipping” at that (who would possibly think to put those adjectives together?). Earlier the boys watch the man masturbate out in the woods, which is never directly described, but through the boys’ reactions you somehow know what he is doing. It leaves one amazed at Joyce’s writing ability to capture this sort of perverted freak without any coarse bluntness that I could picture a lot of modern writers resorting to, including myself.

“Araby” is the story I never gave a chance and found myself loving this time around for its beautiful language. This story about youthful love and coming-of-age to realize the illusions of that love hits home on a theme I find particularly appealing in my fiction (Philip Roth’s “Goodbye, Columbus” one of my favorite books plays on similar themes). This is perhaps the most poetic of Joyce’s stories.

“After the Race” presents us with a young man racing with his richer French “buddies,” hoping to make his future by including some of his father’s hard-earned money into a business project only to lose that money by gambling with them. The irony of the story is that the only reason they were his friends was because of his money that he was going to invest in their business, now he no longer has money to invest in the business and he has defeated himself through his own irresponsibility.

“The Boardinghouse” is perhaps the one story in the collection that I would not describe as leading to paralysis as the female characters manage to move up in the social ladder. It’s a strange anomaly in the collection.

“A Little Cloud” is a story about a failed artist who meets with his journalist friend who has made it on the continent. He tries to imagine the art he would be capable of writing, which leads him to think about how his wife’s feelings have changed for him after the birth of their baby. At some point he comes to realize his whole life is lie, that his wife’s feelings for him have been transferred to the baby, but there are subtle hints I think that his wife never really cared all that deeply for him.

“Counterparts” is a nasty little story about a drunk whose alcoholism leads him to tell off his boss at work probably to jeapordize his job. He goes off to the bars with his friends, bragging about his daring at the office. Only as the night progresses he gets slighted by a passing girl in one of the pubs and at his friend’s hands in an arm-wrestling match. He comes home to take out his humiliation and frustration on his son. This is the most self-destructive of Joyce’s stories I think.

“Clay” is a story about spinster who attends a holiday part with the family of one of the boys she helped raised. This story plays on the narration. It is filled with ironic gestures of people making fun of her old age like when a store clerk asks if she will be purchasing a wedding cake (poking fun at her age and the likelihood that she will never get married) or when an old man on the bus basically hits on her and she thinks of him as a colonel, except he is most likely just riffraff from the street (she blinds herself to the truth because she wants to think of herself as young and beautiful still). These satirical moments lead to a more serious moment when she plays a holiday game and grabs a piece of clay symbolizing death (her likely future). The family redo her turn after a stunned silence, saying a mistake was made, and she instead gets a bible symbolizing she will soon enter a convent as a nun.

“A Painful Case” is about a lonely man who lives his life in isolation only to engage in a platonic liaison with an equally lonely married woman, but when the woman wants to transform their relationship into a romance it disintegrates, eventually leading to the woman committing suicide. Joyce again plays with the narrator’s viewpoint. The woman kills herself many years after the relationship ends, suggesting there were other events in her life during the intervening time that might have led to her suicide. The narrator ends up blaming himself, which only further underscores his own loneliness, but also reveals his intense narcissim. There is fruter subtext that suggests the narrator may be homosexual, hence why he rejects the woman (because he doesn't have interest in her sexually) and leads a lonely life (because the historical period and Catholic/Protestant climate of Ireland didn't allow for him to engage in his desires). The story also notes that an aesthetic life devoid of people misses the entire point of art, which is about human connections and self-reflection for the eventual purpose of human connection.


“A Mother” is about a typical stage mom, an all too familiar figure as my own life has seen me involved with quite a few theater companies when I was younger. A story about a woman living the life she always wanted through her daughter. A story about the art spoiled by crass consumerism.

“Grace” is a story that begins with a symbolic fall from drunkenness. It is a spoof on religion meant as comical and ironic filled with the characters spouting misinformation about church doctrine and history. It ends with shallow sermonizing that compares spirituality with a divine accounting, entirely confusing actual church doctrine (quoth the Jew).