Chekhov Short Story Thread

[Quark]

Janine and islandclimber, part of my response to your posts is in my previous post on the other page.

Here's a good chunk of text describing the passengers:

Iona looks as his fare and moves his lips. . . . Apparently he means to say something, but nothing comes but a sniff.

"What?" inquires the officer.

Iona gives a wry smile, and straining his throat, brings out huskily: "My son . . . er . . . my son died this week, sir."

"H'm! What did he die of?"

Iona turns his whole body round to his fare, and says:

"Who can tell! It must have been from fever. . . . He lay three days in the hospital and then he died. . . . God's will."

"Turn round, you devil!" comes out of the darkness. "Have you gone cracked, you old dog? Look where you are going!"

"Drive on! drive on! . . ." says the officer. "We shan't get there till to-morrow going on like this. Hurry up!"

The sledge-driver cranes his neck again, rises in his seat, and with heavy grace swings his whip. Several times he looks round at the officer, but the latter keeps his eyes shut and is apparently disinclined to listen. Putting his fare down at Vyborgskaya, Iona stops by a restaurant, and again sits huddled up on the box. . . . Again the wet snow paints him and his horse white. One hour passes, and then another. . . .

Three young men, two tall and thin, one short and hunchbacked, come up, railing at each other and loudly stamping on the pavement with their goloshes.

"Cabby, to the Police Bridge!" the hunchback cries in a cracked voice. "The three of us, . . . twenty kopecks!"

Iona tugs at the reins and clicks to his horse. Twenty kopecks is not a fair price, but he has no thoughts for that. Whether it is a rouble or whether it is five kopecks does not matter to him now so long as he has a fare. . . . The three young men, shoving each other and using bad language, go up to the sledge, and all three try to sit down at once. The question remains to be settled: Which are to sit down and which one is to stand? After a long altercation, ill-temper, and abuse, they come to the conclusion that the hunchback must stand because he is the shortest.

"Well, drive on," says the hunchback in his cracked voice, settling himself and breathing down Iona's neck. "Cut along! What a cap you've got, my friend! You wouldn't find a worse one in all Petersburg. . . ."

"He-he! . . . he-he! . . ." laughs Iona. "It's nothing to boast of!"

"Well, then, nothing to boast of, drive on! Are you going to drive like this all the way? Eh? Shall I give you one in the neck?"

"My head aches," says one of the tall ones. "At the Dukmasovs' yesterday Vaska and I drank four bottles of brandy between us."

"I can't make out why you talk such stuff," says the other tall one angrily. "You lie like a brute."

"Strike me dead, it's the truth! . . ."

"It's about as true as that a louse coughs."

"He-he!" grins Iona. "Me-er-ry gentlemen!"

For all the insults and abuse Iona takes, Iona is grateful just have people around. Yet, even with all the chances he has to unburden himself, he's never successful. Part of the problem lies in the fact that his audience is simply insensitive. They push, insult, and even abuse one other. This isn't limited to Iona, either. One of the passengers complains of a headache and the hunchback responds, "You lie like a brute...It's about as true as that a louse [Iona] cough." Iona, however, has a particularly poor time interacting with the other characters. He's the target of most of the insults, and the other characters shut themselves up against anything he says. The difference between Iona and the others is shown most visibly in their movements. At this point, Iona is slow and graceful, whereas the passengers move violently and are constantly hurrying Iona. Later in the story the roles will change and Iona will be the kinetic one and his company will by falling asleep. But, at every point there's always a visible difference in manner between Iona and the other characters. This another of Chekhov's devices which show the social distance between Iona and the world.

[Janine]

That's an interesting point. He is separated from humanity in the same way the dead are. I'll look for the line that makes this comparison, too.

Oh, glad you liked the idea. It just miraculously came to me. Thanks. I hope you can find a passage to support it.

"the Trousseau" is an okay story, but like I said it's kind of obvious. It's pretty easy to see where it's going, and when you get there you're sort of underwhelmed. The details in between seem more like repetition than they do like development. Sorry, I don't mean to be a two-year-old. I just think there are better Chekhov stories out there.

Oh...alright then, if you say so....You can be 'the leader', since I am usually 'the leader' in the Lawrence thread. I just thought that story would be interesting to discuss; maybe it is more a feminine view and so it does not appeal to guys. I think 'Misery' was pretty predictable, too. I like 'The Trousseau', because of the way it took place out of doors and then inside the house. I also liked those small curious details and the mother of pearl fan hanging from the belt of the young woman. That made me even more curious. I guess I like stories with little objects and clues and I liked the contrast of the outside of the house to the dingy/stuffy inside. It really made me wonder about these people who lived there.

If you want to run out and get a Chekhov book there are a few I could suggest.

Quark, thanks, but I found one at my library tonight. I can keep it two weeks, renew it and then there still is a grace period of 5 days or so. I can take it back and still get it out again a few days later. It is a huge thick book so I would imagine it contains most of his stories or all of them. I still think I may have a volume of Chekhov around her in my father's old books; it might prove to only be his plays though. I must go on a search and find it soon.

I'll talk a little bit more about the passengers activeness vs. Iona's gentleness in my next post.

OK - you are the Chekhov SS leader, so lead us onto that passage soon. I am patient and can wait.

I believe it's called "Kashtanka."

Oh good. I will see if this library book contains that story; if so and it is not too long I will read it.

Glad you're back islandclimber. Feel free to comment on anything we've said so far.

Yeah, definitely...jump in anytime islandclimber. Glad you are back. I was talking to someone today who might also join in. It would be nice to recruit some more participants for this thread.

That's a good observation. Although, it's probably true that Dostoevsky's characters were self-tormented and the horse's contemplation is caused by something external. It's the change from "familiar gray landscapes" to a city "full of monstrous lights, of unceasing uproar and hurrying people" that makes the horse thoughtful, and not something within its own personality.

Can't comment - I haven't read any Dostoevsky. I might be one of the rare people on this site who has not yet explored his works. Oh well.... so many great books, so little time.

Later in the story, we'll find that this change mirrors Iona's change from happy father to isolated sledge-driver. Also, it foreshadows the rude and abusive passengers we'll meet later.

Interesting observation, Quark.

I actually haven't read Gorky, but maybe I'll have to take a look.

Not familiar with him either, sorry. Sounds interesting though.

You're right. I'm trying to remember a happy story being set in St. Petersburg and I'm drawing a blank. Weather, czars, poverty--it probably wasn't a tourist trap in the nineteenth century.

Yes, it is hard to think of a Russian author who does not use the snow image and the isolation. I guess if we had to endure those winters it would come out strongly in our writings. The snow and cold would make for a chilly mood and one of dismal poverty compounds that mood.

Action and passivity play important roles in the story. I'll post something a little more explanatory in my next post.

Definitely - like I said before 'inertia' as the first image of Iona in the sledge with his 'inert' mare companion. I read your next post, Quark, and found what you said good and interesting. I will try and comment on that tomorrow. Thanks for posting those passages. I, in particular, found that scene so annoying with those bruts being so insulting to poor Iona and yet he seemed to snicker and giggle at what they said - he seemed to be taken temporarily away from his own grief which acted as a sort of release for him. The text says that much. I will post more on this idea tomorrow.

Do you mean the dream where the driver lashes his horse to death? Ugh, that was a gruesome episode.

Ugh, that sounds just awful. islandclimber will have to answer this one. I realise the last few posts were directed to him. I just jumped into add a few comments. Hope you don't mind.

[islandclimber]

yes i meant the dream where the man lashes the horse to death as it can't pull the absurd number of people the drunk has put on it, and the complete indifference most onlookers show.... that is one of the saddest scenes in literature, the descriptions are so vivid and appalling...

and then this story the relationship between horse and driver is so, maybe, pure and beautiful.... it shows the beauty and love chekhov often put into stories, the redemption, however dark and sad they are.... Dostoevsky's redemption was in religion, and what i love about Chekhov is that he finds it in the everyday things in life, the friendship of a horse and a man, a particular movement of nature, etc... for some reason i'm drawing blanks on specific examples, but i am pretty sure many of the chekhov stories i have read have this redemption in simple everyday things, beauty in simplicity and small things.... and this story is a perfect example for the relationship between driver and horse is beautiful...

I agree with both of you, the inertia of the beginning was just suffering for Iona and the mare likewise or so it implies somewhat that they share the same feelings... and interaction is a saving grace for him, however terribly he is treated he is desperate for it, as it deadens the pain, so he doesn't mind being treated abysmally as long as he is not left alone, and I think that is one of the explanations for the coversation and unburdening himself to his mare in the end... he was grateful to interact with people, but was treated so poorly and no one would let him tell his story, let out his sadness, but his mare will, and that is beautiful...

try listening to Mozart's "requiem" while reading this story, it is so beautiful and sad as well, the two together work well...

[Janine]

yes i meant the dream where the man lashes the horse to death as it can't pull the absurd number of people the drunk has put on it, and the complete indifference most onlookers show.... that is one of the saddest scenes in literature, the descriptions are so vivid and appalling...

and then this story the relationship between horse and driver is so, maybe, pure and beautiful.... it shows the beauty and love chekhov often put into stories, the redemption, however dark and sad they are.... Dostoevsky's redemption was in religion, and what i love about Chekhov is that he finds it in the everyday things in life, the friendship of a horse and a man, a particular movement of nature, etc... for some reason i'm drawing blanks on specific examples, but i am pretty sure many of the chekhov stories i have read have this redemption in simple everyday things, beauty in simplicity and small things.... and this story is a perfect example for the relationship between driver and horse is beautiful...

I agree with both of you, the inertia of the beginning was just suffering for Iona and the mare likewise or so it implies somewhat that they share the same feelings... and interaction is a saving grace for him, however terribly he is treated he is desperate for it, as it deadens the pain, so he doesn't mind being treated abysmally as long as he is not left alone, and I think that is one of the explanations for the coversation and unburdening himself to his mare in the end... he was grateful to interact with people, but was treated so poorly and no one would let him tell his story, let out his sadness, but his mare will, and that is beautiful...

try listening to Mozart's "requiem" while reading this story, it is so beautiful and sad as well, the two together work well...

Hi islandclimber, you put that so well. It is indeed a sad story, but quite lovely, isn't it? The ending is 'pure and beautiful' with the image of man and beast concuring, or man speaking and beast listening intently. Asside from the deep sadness it is a sweet story.

How funny - now we even have music - a soundtrack. We also have the visuals. What else do we need, maybe a little snow?

I like having background music for my stories while I read also. Some work so well with certain texts. There is actually a thread started recently on here asking if one reads with or without music.

It is a busy Friday here so I don't think I can get back to your last post, Quark, until much later. Hang in there. I will be back soon.

[Janine]

Janine and islandclimber, part of my response to your posts is in my previous post on the other page.

Here's a good chunk of text describing the passengers:

Quark,Thanks for posting that part. I didn't repeat it here - everyone can check back to your post. At first when I was reading it I thought - gee, why doesn't poor Iona get upset with these abusive guys. They sure seem to be totally rude and annoying. Then, as I read or listened to it several times, I realised the point was the fact that he was distracted from his grief. I got the idea and why he seemed to welcome their company, even though they were abusive to him. I guess when you don't have anyone to speak to even these bruts would be better than nothing. By concentrating on them he could forget his own all consuming sorrow. I feel this was the entire point that Chekhov was making in this passage and showing us just how emense Iona's sadness was that he would prefer the company of these rude men to his own sorrow. I felt so badly for him in that scene but actually he was worse when left entirely alone. The contrast was quite stark. So below you have expounded on all of this and I agree whole-heartedly. You expressed it well, Quark.

For all the insults and abuse Iona takes, Iona is grateful just have people around. Yet, even with all the chances he has to unburden himself, he's never successful. Part of the problem lies in the fact that his audience is simply insensitive. They push, insult, and even abuse one other. This isn't limited to Iona, either. One of the passengers complains of a headache and the hunchback responds, "You lie like a brute...It's about as true as that a louse [Iona] cough." Iona, however, has a particularly poor time interacting with the other characters. He's the target of most of the insults, and the other characters shut themselves up against anything he says. The difference between Iona and the others is shown most visibly in their movements. At this point, Iona is slow and graceful, whereas the passengers move violently and are constantly hurrying Iona. Later in the story the roles will change and Iona will be the kinetic one and his company will by falling asleep. But, at every point there's always a visible difference in manner between Iona and the other characters. This another of Chekhov's devices which show the social distance between Iona and the world.

Interesting device - in that he does not directly show the all consuming quality of Iona's grief by rather sets up a contrast when Iona takes abuse in order to come out of the grief and find some relief, no matter how short lived or small it be.

[Quark]

Oh...alright then, if you say so....You can be 'the leader', since I am usually 'the leader' in the Lawrence thread.

Leader? Sounds a bit martial, doesn't it? God, I hope that's not the way people look at me. If anyone is looking for direction from me, I think they're going to end up lost. I was just trying to point out that there are some better Chekhov stories you should consider before you get set on one you just read last night. Here are a few good ones: "The Student", "About Love", "Sleepy", "A Doctor's Visit". All of these stories are often anthologized and represent some of the more popular reads. They're also the subject of a lot of serious criticism due to the stories' complex structure, symbols, and ambiguity. I can PM you with more if you want to talk about next month's story.

maybe it is more a feminine view and so it does not appeal to guys.

Were you saying that "The Trousseau" is more feminine? Or, were you saying that picking stories based on opportunities for discussion is a more feminine approach?

Yeah, definitely...jump in anytime islandclimber. Glad you are back. I was talking to someone today who might also join in. It would be nice to recruit some more participants for this thread.

Speaking of that, I sent out some PMs advertising the thread, but I never got any responses. I'm wondering whether my messages got deleted as spam, or something, since I used some of the same text in all of them. Maybe people were just tacitly informing me that they don't care for Chekhov, too. Who knows? It's good to hear that you're having some success, though. These short story threads are fun to do, and I like it when we can get a lot of opinions.

Can't comment - I haven't read any Dostoevsky. I might be one of the rare people on this site who has not yet explored his works. Oh well.... so many great books, so little time.

Gasp. Wow, never? None? Not even a short story? I read Dosdoevsky the way diabetics take insulin, and I think it has similarly life-rejuvenating effects. If you want to experiment, go find Notes from the Underground. Although, maybe you wouldn't like that one. Another story to consider might be Netochka Nezvanova. Either way, they're good books. Wow, no Dosdoevsky.

Definitely - like I said before 'inertia' as the first image of Iona in the sledge with his 'inert' mare companion.

Inertia is a good word for Iona. Like the horse, he's been forced into a situation unnatural for him. Remember he says that his son should be driving and not him. This unusual situation makes him slow to react, and he becomes victimized by the more cheerful and dynamic characters.

yes i meant the dream where the man lashes the horse to death as it can't pull the absurd number of people the drunk has put on it, and the complete indifference most onlookers show.... that is one of the saddest scenes in literature, the descriptions are so vivid and appalling...

I thought the onlookers were sort of sickened by the display. My memory could be off, but I thought one of them even tried to stop the driver. That episode I thought had a lot to do with exposing man's inner-maliciousness, whereas this one is simply about callousness. I think the horse-man relationships in both stories could be an interesting foil for one another, though. One is insanely hurtful and the other is sympathetic and caring.

and then this story the relationship between horse and driver is so, maybe, pure and beautiful.... it shows the beauty and love chekhov often put into stories, the redemption, however dark and sad they are.... Dostoevsky's redemption was in religion, and what i love about Chekhov is that he finds it in the everyday things in life, the friendship of a horse and a man, a particular movement of nature, etc... for some reason i'm drawing blanks on specific examples, but i am pretty sure many of the chekhov stories i have read have this redemption in simple everyday things, beauty in simplicity and small things.... and this story is a perfect example for the relationship between driver and horse is beautiful...

Iona does take comfort in his conversation with the horse, but we're left wondering how satisfying it really is. This is more of the Chekhov ambiguity. We're never really sure whether the conversation Iona is capable of at the end is going to help Iona in any way. It may just be something that temporarily dulls the pain of his loneliness without bring him any closer to real friendship and interaction. I'm not necessarily saying that Iona isn't getting anything out of the conversation at the end, but it's left to wonder what the true value of his talk is. The more pessimistic reading would argue that his talking to the horse is meant to indicate just how low Iona has sunk. The optimistic reading that I'm glad you pointed out reads the ending as a desire-satisfying, happy ending.

Chekhov does this a lot, as you pointed out. He creates these small everyday things which give people pleasure or relief from the low mood that predominates in the sadder stories. Once again, though, there's confusion as to the helpfulness of these things. "Gooseberries" is the story that approaches this topic most. There, we have to wonder whether the country life and the berries are actually generators of happiness, or just opiates that dull peoples senses to the overwhelming sadness around them. I'm not sure whether there's a right answer. It's just a question I think you have to consider when talking about either of the readings.

try listening to Mozart's "requiem" while reading this story, it is so beautiful and sad as well, the two together work well...

That's funny. You're trying to make this more depressing?

[Pensive]

Uptil now I have read four short stories by Chekhov and even though I liked all of them I wouldn't hesitate even for a moment on choosing Misery as my favourite of them all! A brilliant story about the helplessness of a person not being able to gather even the least bit of sympathy he is looking for from fellow human-beings and eventually finding it in the palms of an animal, his mare. Someone who even if can't speak his way, at least is listening to him.

These are my favourite parts from the story:

. Anyone who has been torn away from the plough, from the familiar gray landscapes, and cast into this slough, full of monstrous lights, of unceasing uproar and hurrying people, is bound to think.

So true.

A coachman driving a carriage swears at him; a pedestrian crossing the road and brushing the horse's nose with his shoulder looks at him angrily and shakes the snow off his sleeve. Iona fidgets on the box as though he were sitting on thorns, jerks his elbows, and turns his eyes about like one possessed as though he did not know where he was or why he was there.

Just so beautifully described poor miserable condition of Iona. I really wish I knew Russian. The story looks so well-written in the translation, it must be even better in its original shape.

"Are you munching?" Iona asks his mare, seeing her shining eyes. "There, munch away, munch away. . . . Since we have not earned enough for oats, we will eat hay. . . . Yes, . . . I have grown too old to drive. . . . My son ought to be driving, not I. . . . He was a real cabman. . . . He ought to have lived. . . ."

Iona is silent for a while, and then he goes on:

"That's how it is, old girl. . . . Kuzma Ionitch is gone. . . . He said good-by to me. . . . He went and died for no reason. . . . Now, suppose you had a little colt, and you were own mother to that little colt. . . . And all at once that same little colt went and died. . . . You'd be sorry, wouldn't you? . . ."

The little mare munches, listens, and breathes on her master's hands. Iona is carried away and tells her all about it.

And now the end was obviously very sad. The stammering describing Iona's condition pretty well.

I love as well how chekhov uses the snow to signify oppression and so passively, for the man would not even shake it off if a regular snowdrift fell on him... it is almost a jibe, or something as such, a remonstration with the poor oppressed class, saying they will never stand up for themselves no matter how badly they are treated... same with the horse, and I think that is one of the ways Chekhov likens the man to the horse in this story... that neither will do anything to get out of oppression, he is suggesting somewhat that the poor and oppressed are like subservient animals and will put up with anything and not really care, take it all calmly, with silent depression..

Now you put it very well! The symbolism in this story makes one think really.

[islandclimber]

Welcome to the discussion Pensive.

A coachman driving a carriage swears at him; a pedestrian crossing the road and brushing the horse's nose with his shoulder looks at him angrily and shakes the snow off his sleeve. Iona fidgets on the box as though he were sitting on thorns, jerks his elbows, and turns his eyes about like one possessed as though he did not know where he was or why he was there.

Just so beautifully described poor miserable condition of Iona. I really wish I knew Russian. The story looks so well-written in the translation, it must be even better in its original shape.

"Are you munching?" Iona asks his mare, seeing her shining eyes. "There, munch away, munch away. . . . Since we have not earned enough for oats, we will eat hay. . . . Yes, . . . I have grown too old to drive. . . . My son ought to be driving, not I. . . . He was a real cabman. . . . He ought to have lived. . . ."

Iona is silent for a while, and then he goes on:

"That's how it is, old girl. . . . Kuzma Ionitch is gone. . . . He said good-by to me. . . . He went and died for no reason. . . . Now, suppose you had a little colt, and you were own mother to that little colt. . . . And all at once that same little colt went and died. . . . You'd be sorry, wouldn't you? . . ."

The little mare munches, listens, and breathes on her master's hands. Iona is carried away and tells her all about it.

And now the end was obviously very sad. The stammering describing Iona's condition pretty well.

the very end is quite sad... I agree Pensive... I love the part about Iona "fidgeting on the box as though he were sitting on thorns" as well... it is such a vivid portrayal of the agony and restlessness grief can inspire... (I would love to learn russian as well and read the original language of so many of the country's writers)...

but the ending again, it is quite beautiful, and so sad... but as I mentioned above, Chekhov uses something very simple, very small to kind of show a silver lining one might say (for lack of better term lol)... the mare breathing on Iona's hands as she munches hay and listens... it provides a sense of comfort right in the closing of the story, the warm breath of the mare seems to inspire a degree of warm feeling in me... it seems to say that, though the sadness can't be overcome, it can be beautiful, it can have moments full of compassion, and companionship alongside... and warmth in the heart just not in the mind...

and I agree with you Quark, about the optimistic or pessimistic outlook on the ending, though there is the aforementioned redemption in the compassion between man and horse, one does wonder what good it does if at all... as Chekhov says Iona becomes carried away and tells her all about it... but I still think it does him good, for even without complete understanding, man and animal have a bond, in my opinion, that allows emotion and feeling to pass through... and most of all Iona needed someone, something, to understand what he is feeling... but as Chekhov still points out this doesn't end sadness, maybe not even lessen it, it just allows Iona to not feel as though he is entirely alone in his sadness, that he can share it with someone, and that someone ends up being his mare... sadness alone is desolate and cold and cruel maybe, but sadness when it can be shared I think is quite beautiful and that is why I love the ending of this story..

I thnk "gooseberries" is a great story as well for looking at the question of whether these simple things provide happiness that is real, or just dull the senses to suffering and sadness that is reality... it is a very eastern kind of philosophical question, kind of buddhistic, I wonder what kind of exposure Chekhov had to Buddhism? does anyone know? for Buddhism also says one of the universal facts of existence is suffering or dukka... yet this can be overcome by not grasping at self, but by seeing that even the simplist things are beautiful... until recently, with the new obsession with nounless abstraction in poetry (religious or not), Buddhist poetry was full of the beauties of simple nature... seems kind of like Chekhov... *smile*


same with the pairing of Mozart's "Requiem" with this story, it's that shared sadness... though I do sometimes wonder if bringing music that inspires tears into a story that inspires tears is such a good idea lol...

But, at every point there's always a visible difference in manner between Iona and the other characters. This another of Chekhov's devices which show the social distance between Iona and the world.

Quark i know why Chekhov wants to do this to a degree, but why do you think he wants to make the gulf between Iona and the rest of the world so immense... the people ignore him, are always so different from him in action and word and movement as you said, and this creates a gulf between them, one that Chekhov makes appear endless and uncrossable... same with the weather won't comfort him, the lights seem to almost make a mockery of his sadness with the brightness and life they breathe into Petersburg, so in opposition to his sadness and the death of his son, they almost try to make him feel more and more alone in his misery... I know the whole point of the story is his misery, but why do you all think Chekhov wants to make his isolation from all humanity and almost all things in the world so complete, so immense?

I find it interesting as welll that Iona finds humanity and compassion in his mare, not in humans...

Janine, please do try something by Dostoevsky, "Notes from the Underground" is perfect, though if you want something a little shorter I always found myself particularly inclined to "Dream of a Ridiculous Man"... Dostoevsky is a wonderful writer, though many have strong opinions for and against him.. I find you either love him or you hate him, there is no in between, just take a look at Nabokov's polemic against him! lol... As Nietszche said Dostoevsky is the only psychologist I ever learned anything from... Chekhov uses the simpleness and the sadness and the beauty of the world and what's in it to create a story interwoven with feelings and ideas... Dostoevsky gets inside the minds of the characters he writes like almost no other writer ever...it is fascinating...

[Janine]

Leader? Sounds a bit martial, doesn't it? God, I hope that's not the way people look at me. If anyone is looking for direction from me, I think they're going to end up lost.

Wowy - so many new posts. I will try my hardest to catch up with everyone. Give me a little time. I am starting with Quark's and then will go onto Pensive and islandclimber.

Hahaha - I did not mean it to sound martial. Actually, in these threads in order for them to continue successfully it is actually a good thing to have a sort of leader. For a time the young people in Lawrence thread were calling me their 'fearless leader'. I really had to laugh. I certainly don't profess to know it all, but it helps to provide some sort of guidance, I do believe. I told you before this is a 'pet peeve' of mine in the general discussion on the forum; mostly I am referring to the monthly book discussions. Right now if, you go into the Dubliners discussion, you will see it is floundering - sorry to say that, but it is, unless it has picked up today; I have not checked it yet. I can't understand how that discussion does not have any sense of direction or structure; but don't let me go on and on about this. I finally decided to just read a few of the stories in the collection and post a few comments in that thread. How can one discuss all of the stories in "Dubliners" in just one short month? We do much better in here taking one story for each month or in Chekhov with 2 shorter stories a month. Quark, I meant it when I said - you can be the Chekhov leader. It is a responsible job, but someone's got to do it!

I was just trying to point out that there are some better Chekhov stories you should consider before you get set on one you just read last night. Here are a few good ones: "The Student", "About Love", "Sleepy", "A Doctor's Visit". All of these stories are often anthologized and represent some of the more popular reads. They're also the subject of a lot of serious criticism due to the stories' complex structure, symbols, and ambiguity. I can PM you with more if you want to talk about next month's story.

Quark, you are so quirky sometimes! Yeah, yeah, yeah...and most likely the ones you like, are not in my audiobook collection...nope they aren't! Ok, so now I will checking my library (very thick) book, which contains VII volumes of C's tales and I can only find one of these stories; that is, if the name is altered to "Sleephead", there might be one. Is that the same story, by any chance? I see "The Doctor", "The Assistent" but not "The Student; and I also see "Passion", but not "About Love"...could something be lost here in the translations? I feel a bit frustrated now. Maybe you should send me a list in a PM, so we can figure this all out. You would think in 7 volumes of C's short stories, some of those stories you mention, would appear. *grrr...frustrated again! grrrr*

Were you saying that "The Trousseau" is more feminine? Or, were you saying that picking stories based on opportunities for discussion is a more feminine approach?

Yes, the story since it involved a young lady hopeful for marriage. You guys seem to like the more guy type stories. I like the feminine ones better. Could be a battle of the sexes here in story choices.

Speaking of that, I sent out some PMs advertising the thread, but I never got any responses. I'm wondering whether my messages got deleted as spam, or something, since I used some of the same text in all of them. Maybe people were just tacitly informing me that they don't care for Chekhov, too. Who knows? It's good to hear that you're having some success, though. These short story threads are fun to do, and I like it when we can get a lot of opinions.

Well, I have done that but I have had more success announcing it on other threads. Odd that they did not respond to you at all. Maybe they thought you were a terrorist! I don't honestly think Chekhov has a huge following. To be quite honest with you, I had to really give him a chance. I was not too sure I really liked his stories at first. I think the Branagh CD's won me over. I liked the way he read and presented them. Also the more I participate in this thread I see more that I did not notice on first readings. I really wanted to support you thread so I am truly trying to love Chekhov but L will still be number one with me. I like other Russian short story authors emensely such as Tolstoy, Turgenev. I have collections from each.

Gasp. Wow, never? None? Not even a short story? I read Dosdoevsky the way diabetics take insulin, and I think it has similarly life-rejuvenating effects. If you want to experiment, go find Notes from the Underground. Although, maybe you wouldn't like that one. Another story to consider might be Netochka Nezvanova. Either way, they're good books. Wow, no Dosdoevsky.

Well, you have to understand that Dosdoevsky is definitely on my 'to be read' list, but I tend to concentrate for awhile - sometimes years - on one author at a time. I know someday, I will get around to Dosdoevsky's writings. I read mainly classics, you know. I don't waste my time on junk at all. I know I would like the physcological aspects of his writings. I have particular ones I wish to start with. For one, Lawrence wrote commentary on several Dostevesky novels, so I thought I would explore those first. But once I do start reading him, I will get into his 'mindset' and want to absorb all he wrote; I know it. I function like that. I get like this from time to time. A few years ago, I read most of what Thomas Hardy wrote and much about the actual man/author. There are a number of authors, I have read extensively, in this way. I guess in this way, I find I delve way further below the surface of what those authors are thinking and getting at in their writings. This fascinates me. No doubt, I may have read one or two Dosevesky short stories in my time....somewhere along my travels in life. You know I am not a young girl anymore. And there is always the old adage - so many books, so little time. We all have to make choices you know....priorities. Well, Quark, cut me a break. I have read a ton of very fine authors in my day. I probably have read some you have not touched yet.

Inertia is a good word for Iona. Like the horse, he's been forced into a situation unnatural for him. Remember he says that his son should be driving and not him. This unusual situation makes him slow to react, and he becomes victimized by the more cheerful and dynamic characters.

Yes, and it is always so unnatural to a parent to think their child dies before they do. I recall in Lawrence's "Sons and Lovers" that the death of the oldest son had a huge impact on the family and the story's outcome. One always feels that it is unfair when the young die young and preceed the parent. The parent has a sense of guilt that they should have been the ones that death came to summon to the grave, so this indeed compounds the feelings that Iona is having continually in this story. He mentions this fact several times in the text.

I thought the onlookers were sort of sickened by the display. My memory could be off, but I thought one of them even tried to stop the driver. That episode I thought had a lot to do with exposing man's inner-maliciousness, whereas this one is simply about callousness. I think the horse-man relationships in both stories could be an interesting foil for one another, though. One is insanely hurtful and the other is sympathetic and caring.

Again, I did not read that but it reminds me of a book by Lawrence, "The Plumed Serpent" in which he very explicitly writes of the violence towards animals taking place during a bull-fight. Ugh - it was truly horrid the way in which Lawrence described the animal abuse. I could hardly read the passage, because it was so appalling. I guess he got his idea across, in a very graphic way. I would imagine this horse scene was very similiar. Lawrence also displayed a scene, in "Women in Love", in which Gerald beats his mare at a railway crossing when a train is going by. The brutality is horrendous and shows that man is exerting his power over the horse. It also shows the 'maliciousness of man', so I can relate to this episode, even though I have not read it. The two stories do seem to be a foil for each other - two ends of the spectrum - repect for animals and disrespect and power over them...opposite ideas and poles.

Iona does take comfort in his conversation with the horse, but we're left wondering how satisfying it really is. This is more of the Chekhov ambiguity. We're never really sure whether the conversation Iona is capable of at the end is going to help Iona in any way. It may just be something that temporarily dulls the pain of his loneliness without bring him any closer to real friendship and interaction. I'm not necessarily saying that Iona isn't getting anything out of the conversation at the end, but it's left to wonder what the true value of his talk is. The more pessimistic reading would argue that his talking to the horse is meant to indicate just how low Iona has sunk. The optimistic reading that I'm glad you pointed out reads the ending as a desire-satisfying, happy ending.

I am left feeling two ways - sort of ambivalent. I feel sad and yet, I feel it is a tender moment between man and animal. I am usually a optimist, but the ending is bitter-sweet, and I don't think there is hope that Iona will be satisfied, having not connected to a human being about the death of his son. Therefore, when the story ends, I still feel very sad for him. The contrast of resorting to having to tell his animal, also says a lot, because no human in his world will pay him any mind. I feel in the end, that this story is about 'human isolation' and that is a sad thing indeed.

Chekhov does this a lot, as you pointed out. He creates these small everyday things which give people pleasure or relief from the low mood that predominates in the sadder stories. Once again, though, there's confusion as to the helpfulness of these things. "Gooseberries" is the story that approaches this topic most. There, we have to wonder whether the country life and the berries are actually generators of happiness, or just opiates that dull peoples senses to the overwhelming sadness around them. I'm not sure whether there's a right answer. It's just a question I think you have to consider when talking about either of the readings.

I do like the fine details. Now that I have been exposed to the idea, I look for them right away. I like these tiny clues to make us wonder about the deeper questions and the personalities of the characters. The rest of what you wrote in interesting to me. I will have to take the time to read 'Gooseberries' again - it has been years since I read that story. How odd, I can't even find 'Gooseberries' in this library book, but I do think I have another anthology that includes it.

That's funny. You're trying to make this more depressing?

I usually do the same thing. I like to be synchronised, when I read, so I put on music that matches the overall mood. I own a lot of soundtrack recordings, so often I choose one of those - especially for Shakespeare.

[Quark]

Welcome to the thread Pensive. I'm glad you liked the story; and, if you think the symbolism and language was good in this story, wait until we read "The Student." One of my favorite lines from that story: "'The past,' he thought, 'is linked with the present by an unbroken chain of events flowing one out of another.' And it seemed to him that he had just seen both ends of that chain; that when he touched one end the other quivered." Stay with us Pensive. We're just getting started here. And, by the way, which stories did you read before? Anything good?

Janine and island, I'm running out of time to respond to your posts which were pretty involved and multi-part. Some interesting ideas, though: Eastern philosophy, ambivalence (borrowing a word from the Dickens discussion), and all the other topics we've brought up. I'll have to write a long post tomorrow.

[islandclimber]

Quark I just looked back at C&P and you are right... many of the onlookers eventually do become sickened by the display... I think I was remembering the beginning when they all pile on, and he boasts that his horse will pull them or else... and people think it is funny at this point... and then the ambivalence of all as they may be sickened by what happens, but do nothing about it... indifference can be a bitter pill to swallow, and I think Iona finds that as well in this story...

[Janine]

Hi Pensive and glad you joined this group! I thought you would like these stories and they are short, too.
I told everyone in the Lawrence thread why I was absent last night. We had a power failure about 5 PM that lasted for 16 hours - needless to say it was a very cold and windy night - brrrr, also a very dark one. We managed to scare up candles and flashlights and waited for the rooms to get frigid and then we bundled for bed. Unfortunately, sleeping in the cold has caused me to have slight relapse I think with my cold, and if it keeps up, I am definitely going to the doctors tomorrow. I can't take another few weeks of this. The power failure was caused by excessive rain and windstorms. Even today there could be another one - I hope not - but it is still quite windy and the power companies are working overtime to restore all areas. The Eastern US was apparently hard hit with downed trees, etc.

I am glad I am back. I know you have been through this, Pensive, being cut off from computers, electric, heat, etc. Now I can fully appreciate what you go through.

So let me now continue and answer your post.

Quote by Pensive:

Uptil now I have read four short stories by Chekhov and even though I liked all of them I wouldn't hesitate even for a moment on choosing Misery as my favourite of them all! A brilliant story about the helplessness of a person not being able to gather even the least bit of sympathy he is looking for from fellow human-beings and eventually finding it in the palms of an animal, his mare. Someone who even if can't speak his way, at least is listening to him.

Nice way of paraphrasing the story. I fully agree that it is a great story. Since I only had access to my diskman (uses batteries) last night I listened again to the story being narrated and liked it even better second or it might be my third time around. The ending is superb. You pointed out the breath of the animal on the hands of Iona. I just love that image. When listening to the story again I noticed somethings I really liked - images I had not noticed before - that really made the story seem so real - like when Iona and the horse shake off the snow when they get a customer. I can just picture that scene the way Chekhov describes it.

These are my favourite parts from the story:

Many of those were my favorite parts, also. Thanks for taking the time to post them. Oddly enough, this line:

Iona fidgets on the box as though he were sitting on thorns

I noticed that Chekhov used in the 'sitting on thorns', or 'fidgeting on thorns,' part in another of his short stories. I will check it out and see which one. I found it curious that he would use that expression twice, but maybe that was a popular expression in his day (?)

So true.

Yes.

Just so beautifully described poor miserable condition of Iona. I really wish I knew Russian. The story looks so well-written in the translation, it must be even better in its original shape.

It must be something to read in the actual language of Russian.

And now the end was obviously very sad. The stammering describing Iona's condition pretty well.

Yes, the stammering was an important thing I believe. In my audiobook this is quite well done and rather implies to me the shyness and the quiet gentle way of Iona; also it may portray his being in such a sad, inert state of mind. I like the fact that Chekhov used this device to tell us something about Iona. It separates him from the others we meet in the story, as well. It keeps him isolated in his own quiet contained world. He seems to me to be a meek man and sweet.

Now you put it very well! The symbolism in this story makes one think really.

It does; I agree.

For now, islandclimber, I will only answer your last part of your post that you directed at me. I did read your entire post and think it is very well expressed and I agree with all you pointed out. Good post! I will let Quark and Pensive answer the rest today, or whenever they can.

Quote by islandclimber:

Janine, please do try something by Dostoevsky, "Notes from the Underground" is perfect, though if you want something a little shorter I always found myself particularly inclined to "Dream of a Ridiculous Man"... Dostoevsky is a wonderful writer, though many have strong opinions for and against him.. I find you either love him or you hate him, there is no in between, just take a look at Nabokov's polemic against him! lol... As Nietszche said Dostoevsky is the only psychologist I ever learned anything from... Chekhov uses the simpleness and the sadness and the beauty of the world and what's in it to create a story interwoven with feelings and ideas... Dostoevsky gets inside the minds of the characters he writes like almost no other writer ever...it is fascinating...

Thanks for all the suggestions. Someday, no doubt, I will read many of his works, but I was going to start with "The Brothers K" and then probably read "Crime and Punishment" and "The Idiot". At least that was my loosely layed plan for the future. I will consider the books you have suggested though. I guess once I get started reading his works, I will be busy for a couple of years or so. This is how I function with authors you see (I wrote a comment in my post several back). Currently, most of my concentration is on D.H.Lawrence and I am nearly at the end of reading most of what he wrote - but.... then there is the re-reading (which I love to do), discussion groups on two of his main novels, which we are planning spring into summer on this site, and of course, the 8 volumes of Lawrence's letters, some commentary books, and another full biography (opps, actually 2)....can you get the picture?

BUT, you are probably right. One of these days, I should just try to squeeze in one Dostevesky book in order to get my interest going on the author. Perhaps even some short stories would spark my interest. Which ones of those would you recommend, islandclimber?

[islandclimber]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Someday, no doubt, I will read many of his works, but I was going to start with "The Brothers K" and then probably read "Crime and Punishment" and "The Idiot". At least that was my loosely layed plan for the future. I will consider the books you have suggested though. I guess once I get started reading his works, I will be busy for a couple of years or so. This is how I function with authors you see (I wrote a comment in my post several back). Currently, most of my concentration is on D.H.Lawrence and I am nearly at the end of reading most of what he wrote - but.... then there is the re-reading (which I love to do), discussion groups on two of his main novels, which we are planning spring into summer on this site, and of course, the 8 volumes of Lawrence's letters, some commentary books, and another full biography (opps, actually 2)....can you get the picture?

BUT, you are probably right. One of these days, I should just try to squeeze in one Dostevesky book in order to get my interest going on the author. Perhaps even some short stories would spark my interest. Which ones of those would you recommend, islandclimber?

Well, "The Idiot" is my favourite novel of his... both C&P and TBK have better parts, at least philosophically and pyschologically, but "The Idiot" is just such a beautiful story, I love it...

"Notes from the Underground" though is a great start.. it is only a hundred pages or so, and is just a fascinating look into Dostoevsky's world... It is a great intro before you go into the bigger novels, as it introduces you to the pyschology and philosophy that is so prevalent behind them... and it is a wonderful read...

but for something alot shorter, i think in the 30 page range, "Dream of a Ridiculous Man" is quite the story as well, it is much brighter than most Dostoevsky and just incredibly fascinating... If you are interested you could try picking up "Great Short Works of Fyodor Dostoevsky"... I know places like amazon and most books stores have it.. his short works are a great start, though they are all 30 pages plus, up to 150 pages... so nothing super short... just amazing though...

I know what you mean about time though... there are so many authors I want to read but I never get started with for I am always in the midst of something else... I keep meaning to read more modern authors, but except for the occasional flirtation lol, i never have the time, or I forget...

as you said, so many books, so little time...

cheers

[Quark]

A brilliant story about the helplessness of a person not being able to gather even the least bit of sympathy he is looking for from fellow human-beings and eventually finding it in the palms of an animal, his mare. Someone who even if can't speak his way, at least is listening to him.

it just allows Iona to not feel as though he is entirely alone in his sadness, that he can share it with someone, and that someone ends up being his mare... sadness alone is desolate and cold and cruel maybe, but sadness when it can be shared I think is quite beautiful and that is why I love the ending of this story..

I am left feeling two ways - sort of ambivalent. I feel sad and yet I feel it is a tender moment between man and animal. I feel in the end, that this story is about human isolation and that is a sad thing indeed.

Yeah, the misery of this story isn't the grief the father feels for the loss of his son. That's there certainly. But, what's more depressing is the lack of compassion that people feel for Iona. It's his loneliness that is saddening.

it is a very eastern kind of philosophical question, kind of buddhistic, I wonder what kind of exposure Chekhov had to Buddhism?

Well, I can't say for sure whether Chekhov had any contact with Buddhism. I myself have had very little so I really can't comment on the similarity, either. Chekhov lived in western Russia which was typically European in its thinking, though. The gentility spoke French, and many of the styles were German. The Russians had a problematic relationship with their Asian neighbors during the nineteenth century, and I guess a certain resistance to their ideas may have formed.

Much of Chekhov skepticism toward pleasure may have come from his views on industrialism and class. Industrialism created a glut of new goods and made transportation and communication easier; but, it also lead to horrible working conditions and a massive division between rich and poor. The pleasurable results for some were purchased at the expense of others. This weighed heavily on Chekhov, and it effected his writing. Class was another source of Chekhov's doubts about happiness. He believed that the way people work is so degrading that only a middle class which is insulated from it could be happy. For more on this, read "A Doctor's Visit." On top of this there were probably other personal and philosophical reasons for Chekhov's opinion on pleasure. His opinions about society around him may just be symptoms of something deeper, after all.

I know the whole point of the story is his misery, but why do you all think Chekhov wants to make his isolation from all humanity and almost all things in the world so complete, so immense?

It's for effect. The story is meant to be a tear-jerker. Why do you suppose Shakespeare has Richard III kill off so many people? After two you would think the audience would get the idea, but the play just becomes a bloodbath. Shakespeare's adding victim after victim for the same reason Chekhov makes Iona more and more isolated: to heighten the effects of the story and make them last longer for the reader.

Actually, in these threads in oder for them to continue successfully it is actually a good thing to have a sort of leader.

Yeah, that's probably true. But, as far as the story selection goes, we should probably do that democratically.

For a time the young people in Lawrence thread were calling me their 'fearless leader'. I really had to laugh. I certainly don't profess to know it all, but it helps to provide some sort of guidance, I do believe.

They may have been calling you that for your determination as well as your knowledge. You've really taken that discussion through thick and thin.

I told you before this is a 'pet peeve' of mine in the general discussion on the forum; mostly I am referring to the monthly book discussions. Right now if, you go into the Dubliners discussion, you will see it is floundering

There's no good way to do a discussion on Dubliners. Everyone wants to talk about a different story. Literally, people are on the wrong page.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...and most likely the ones you like, are not in my audiobook collection...nope they aren't!

I could send you a book, if you want. Or, you could pick up a used one off of Amazon. $4.49 for a complete short stories last time I checked.

Yes, the story since it involved a young lady hopeful for marriage. You guys seem to like the more guy type stories. I like the feminine ones better. Could be a battle of the sexes here in story choices.

Hmm, "Sleepy" is about a girl taking care of a child. Babysitting, is that a feminine topic? I'm not good at this. Help me out.

I don't honestly think Chekhov has a huge following. To be quite honest with you, I had to really give him a chance. I was not too sure I really liked his stories at first. I think the Branagh CD's won me over. I liked the way he read and presented them. Also the more I participate in this thread I see more that I did not notice on first readings. I really wanted to support you thread so I am truly trying to love Chekhov but L will still be number one with me.

Oh, I can't scoff enough at this. The reason I started the thread is because I thought Chekhov is a popular, approachable author. I can understand how the Lawrence-centric reader may be slow to warm up to Chekhov--they're very different writers, after all--but that doesn't mean Chekhov isn't popular.

Yes, and it is always so unnatural to a parent to think their child dies before they do. I recall in Lawrence's "Sons and Lovers" that the death of the oldest son had a huge impact on the family and the story's outcome. One always feels that it is unfair when the young die young and preceed the parent. The parent has a sense of guilt that they should have been the ones that death came to summon to the grave, so this indeed compounds the feelings that Iona is having continually in this story. He mentions this fact several times in the text.

That's another good parallel. The sons death in that story has similar effects.

Again, I did not read that but it reminds me of a book by Lawrence and a scene in that book of a bull-fight. Ugh - it was truly horrid the way in which Lawrence described the animal abuse. I could hardly read the passage because it was so appalling

Lawrence can be pretty gross when he wants to be. Even when he's not, though, some of his images are a little weird. He finds a way to make it work somehow. It sort of adds to the mysteriousness in his stories.

I do like the fine details. Now that I have been exposed to the idea I look for them right away. I like these tiny clues to make us wonder about the deeper questions and the personalities of the characters.

With writers who are as stingy with the details as Chekhov, you really have to put a lot of scrutiny on anything that might at first appear as extraneous.

[Janine]

Yeah, the misery of this story isn't the grief the father feels for the loss of his son. That's there certainly. But, what's more depressing is the lack of compassion that people feel for Iona. It's his loneliness that is saddening.

I did notice these lines near the end, when I listened to the story again last night:

Again he is alone and again there is silence for him. . . . The misery which has been for a brief space eased comes back again and tears his heart more cruelly than ever. With a look of anxiety and suffering Iona's eyes stray restlessly among the crowds moving to and fro on both sides of the street: can he not find among those thousands someone who will listen to him? But the crowds flit by heedless of him and his misery. . . . His misery is immense, beyond all bounds. If Iona's heart were to burst and his misery to flow out, it would flood the whole world, it seems, but yet it is not seen. It has found a hiding-place in such an insignificant shell that one would not have found it with a candle by daylight. . . .

I find this passage so interesting as though Chekhov is viewing Iona's misery as though it were his companion, like another character in the story. Of course 'misery' is hardly something one wants to be one with and yet is is like this 'misery' is hidden within Iona and until realised and talked about with another human being, he cannot rid himself of it, or rather accept it and heal and move on from it. He cannot rid himself of it's dire effect upon him. I almost think of the 'misery', Iona's 'misery' as a personification, in this instance. It is an 'evil' thing that hides away inside of the 'insignificant shell' which is Iona, eating away at his fragile life and being. No one seeks it out, or heeds his wanting to tell his story and reveal it. The text goes onto indicate, that if anyone could seek for it, it they would know that it can't be found out, 'as with a candle in daylight' - a beautiful phrase, so meaningful. This last statement I find curious, as well. If Iona were to be able to reveal this secret misery, why would no one be able to seek it out? or does this mean it is too emense for anyone to truly comprehend?

Well, I can't say for sure whether Chekhov had any contact with Buddhism. I myself have had very little so I really can't comment on the similarity, either. Chekhov lived in western Russia which was typically European in its thinking, though. The gentility spoke French, and many of the styles were German. The Russians had a problematic relationship with their Asian neighbors during the nineteenth century, and I guess a certain resistance to their ideas may have formed.

islandclimber, I am also ignornant to this idea and yet it does sound like an interesting theroy. I wonder how exposed Chekhov would have been to Buddhist ideas though. It seems like a long-shot, but I guess all authors can be influenced by all ideas they become exposed to, no matter how remote they may be to us.

Much of Chekhov skepticism toward pleasure may have come from his views on industrialism and class. Industrialism created a glut of new goods and made transportation and communication easier; but, it also lead to horrible working conditions and a massive division between rich and poor. The pleasurable results for some were purchased at the expense of others. This weighed heavily on Chekhov, and it effected his writing. Class was another source of Chekhov's doubts about happiness. He believed that the way people work is so degrading that only a middle class which is insulated from it could be happy. For more on this, read "A Doctor's Visit." On top of this there were probably other personal and philosophical reasons for Chekhov's opinion on pleasure. His opinions about society around him may just be symptoms of something deeper, after all.

This is interesting, Quark, I do wonder where his skepticism and his cynisism at times comes from? I was thinking I should read more about him biographically. I think many of the Russian authors I find difficult because I have not been fully exposed to their history and so I can't always see where the ideas were formed. What you have layed out in this paragraph makes a lot of sense to me. I find this part helpful and intersting.

It's for effect. The story is meant to be a tear-jerker. Why do you suppose Shakespeare has Richard III kill off so many people? After two you would think the audience would get the idea, but the play just becomes a bloodbath. Shakespeare's adding victim after victim for the same reason Chekhov makes Iona more and more isolated: to heighten the effects of the story and make them last longer for the reader.

Wow, someone mentions one of my favoritie of the Shakespeare plays - Richard III; I am nearly as fascinated with Richard III as I am with Hamlet. Interesting play and character. It is not nearly the blood-bath that is in Titus or in MacBeth, in my opinion, but it is excessive and yet Richard never commits one of the murders - he has his henchmen do it all and he works totally by manipulating people. Actually, Hamlet kills more people than Richard ever does, technically speaking, within the bounds of the play. But, like Shakespeare and also like Lawrence, the 'repetition' is used to drive home the point and to take the reader through various stages towards the ending. If you notice in Chekhov, as in Lawrence short stories, there are often 3 parts to the story, sometimes more. There are definite divisions and each part may have some forms of repetition, but altered in someway, to progress to the last part. It is quite brilliant writing and nothing all that new to authors perhaps but it is so well done with C and L, in my opinion, and it helps to build up the story and catches the readers attention as it progresses.

Last night I listened to the entire story, which is longer, much longer, of "In the Ravine". I noticed this story also, was divided up into sections or chapters, as a small novel would be. I liked the story very much, Quark, but I suppose it is too long to discuss on this thread (?). I found it contained more imagery and objects of importance, than many of the shorter short stories and these details intersted me emensely. The story had some defining moments, when one felt a sense of awe and I really was quite impressed. The reading was stellar and kept my interest throughout, and I did not nod off at all; but, that was maybe because I was sleeping in a room with no heat . I really wanted to stay for the duration and know the ending. The 'suspense' of the story built up very adeptly over time.

Yeah, that's probably true. But, as far as the story selection goes, we should probably do that democratically.

How? We don't have a poll voting section here. Usually, in Lawrence thread, it is either Virgil or I who do the choosing, since we are the only ones who know the stories. Virgil was busy this month, but I did confer with him on which one to pick out of a choice, since I had spend an evening reading about 6 of them, trying to come up with a good one this time 'round. I am not sure it can be done democratically speaking but we could suggest perhaps and then give opinions. As far as I am concerned you can pick them but it would be nice to concure on them and see if everyone has assess to that particular story. The two you recently mentioned sound quite good and if I have to I will print them from online, provided I can find the text. You might research where to find it and post in this thread. We do that often in the Lawrence thread.

They may have been calling you that for your determination as well as your knowledge. You've really taken that discussion through thick and thin.

Thanks for recognising that, Quark. It does take a lot of work and I am really dedicated to it. I'm very determined to keep that thread running and so far it has payed off. I am proud we have kept it going so long and with so many posts - wow, over 1000 is impressive in under a year's time. I was so happy you noted this fact that day in your post. That was nice.

There's no good way to do a discussion on Dubliners. Everyone wants to talk about a different story. Literally, people are on the wrong page.

There isn't a way, the way in which it is being done in that thread, because one needs a month for each story or possibly 2 stories in one month, no more. It needs it's own continuing thread. The Joyce stories are complex.
Already, I can see people are totally overwhelmed. Oh well, I will post when I can and probably only concentrate on a few of the stories; that is if I find the time this month. Whew, I am too busy!

I could send you a book, if you want. Or, you could pick up a used one off of Amazon. $4.49 for a complete short stories last time I checked.

That is nice of you. Maybe we could make an exchange with the audio CD set copies. Do you have two of the same book or something? or an older one you don't use? Last I looked on Amazon (yesterday) the Chekhov books were through the roof; are you kidding? Some were as high as 35 dollar for a used paperback; I was shocked. Chekhov must have a huge following, just not on this site. But when I saw the prices I said 'forget it'. Maybe I can get one at Barnes and Noble cheaper. Thing is - which collection to buy - there are so many listed on Amazon, you know.

Hmm, "Sleepy" is about a girl taking care of a child. Babysitting, is that a feminine topic? I'm not good at this. Help me out.

So 'Sleephead' is not the same story as 'Sleepy'? I thought like with Lapdog the titles might vary with the translation. I listened to a story last night called 'The Beggar' and it spoke of him saying he claimed to be a student so I wondered if this was also called 'The Student'. I will have to do some online research into this today. Yes, babysitting sounds kind of feminine.

Oh, I can't scoff enough at this. The reason I started the thread is because I thought Chekhov is a popular, approachable author. I can understand how the Lawrence-centric reader may be slow to warm up to Chekhov--they're very different writers, after all--but that doesn't mean Chekhov isn't popular.

Oh sorry, sorry...I didn't mean for you to take it personally....I was only giving my own opinion and actually my first impressions on the author. I said I have become a convert recently and warmed to the author, yet I don't see too many others here in the thread or Chekhov's name mentioned much in the list of Lit Net participant's favorite authors. I really was talking through my hat, I guess. I don't know what kind of following the man has, but if it is a large one, we need to recruit others for this thread, Quark.
You pegged me right, 'the Lawrence-centric reader ' and yes, they are quite different in tone, concept and other aspects, I believe. I think that Chekhov has an 'edge' that Lawrence does not have. I feel with Chekhov he is more critical of the life about him and less sympathetic to the general public. Is this incorrect, do you think. or is this accurate? I think there is more 'anger' evident in Chekhov stories. At first, this really turned me off to the author, but now I am trying to understand it, and see his point of view. I don't find Chekhov an enjoyable author to read, personally; I find his stories just so sad and so tonally sad, throughout the story. Some stories don't have a spark of light or happiness about them. I usually do find reading them a bit of a downer, and yet I do like the stories. Again, this is just my feeble opinion and why I have shied away for so long from reading his works. Certainly, Lawrence does not always end on a bright note either, but I find more of nature and things to find joy in in Lawrence's work many times over. I just don't feel this with Chekhov. Perhaps one has to dig deeper and see the tiny little things - like Pensive said - the warm breath of the mare on the hands of Iona.

That's another good parallel. The sons death in that story has similar effects.

Another parellel would be in "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenev, when Bazarov dies and the parents visit their son's grave. They feel this guilt that they should have been the ones to die first. In the natural order of things he should not have be taken by death before they were. It is all wrong for them as it was with Mrs. Morel. The effect in all these cases is a dire one.

Lawrence can be pretty gross when he wants to be. Even when he's not, though, some of his images are a little weird. He finds a way to make it work somehow. It sort of adds to the mysteriousness in his stories.

Absolutely and hard to understand just why sometimes. He is not always too sympathetic to animals either. The image in "The Plumed Serpent" of this horse being gouged to death is appalling - no other word for it, accept maybe obscene. If I had not been determined to continue with the novel, it would be a sure turn-off to completing it, and it came at the very first section of the book - quite shocking. As you just pointed out, somehow Lawrence made it work, even though it was one of the weirdest things I ever read before.

With writers who are as stingy with the details as Chekhov, you really have to put a lot of scrutiny on anything that might at first appear as extraneous.

Exactly. I agree and that is why they become so important.