D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Why Cornwall? It does look very beautiful in these pictures. I did not find many references to this story in his letters but hope you do.

Thanks - this site is wonderful. I love this part of England. The photos are so beautiful and evoke the feeling I get from some of Lawrence's writings by the seaside.


Hira, this may answer your question. I found this online today.

When Lawrence, with his wife Freida, moved to Cornwall in1916 he saw it as a first step toward emigrating to America and away from a war he did not support..
Any plans Lawrence and his German wife Freida might have had to move from London to Cornwall, and then to Ireland and eventually America, where they planned to settle, were quickly scuppered by the new British Military Service Act of 1916, which forbad foreign travel by civilians, and put Lawrence in danger of being called-up for military service himself. Lawrence felt trapped.

And it wasn't only the new travel restrictions that made him feel trapped ( to be honest he felt trapped wherever he lived), no, this time it was also because of the suppression, due to the so called 'obscene' content of his recently published novel The Rainbow. As a result Lawrence was getting close to a nervous breakdown. The couple decided to move to Cornwall anyway.

You can find the rest of the article here: http://literaryculture.suite101.com/..._cornwall_1916
It is quite interesting and revealing.

Quote by Hira:

Loved it! Yep, I'll look him up.

Fabulous work! Such romantic and interesting work he did.


Quote by Hira:

I love what Katherine Mansfield says about the story

Glad you found that helpful. I really liked what she said also. It was interesting to me. I liked several of the things she pointed out. This story is really sensual - about the senses and feeling things from a different level...like the taste of the apple, the red berries on the tray, the feel of the sea air, the smell of the roses, and the sense of the man being not as he had once been. I will re-read this story, although I read it twice so far and pick out other references that make this story so alive.

I think I agree with you both Janine and Dark Muse, I really do not like her treatment of her husband but I do agree with what you say Janine about the possible misunderstanding between the two. And perhaps her behaviour is merely instigated by the trauma she has just suffered. But perhaps as you say we are not really required to judge her.

Yes, exactly. There are many stories of Lawrence's where we don't necessarily like the characters. I think we always feel the need to try and explain them or understand what motivates them. I think, the fact they interact with each other is a vitally important factor. None are as 'islands unto themselves' - they act on impulse and they react also, on impulse or are inclined to react in the moment. It is not a planned reaction. They don't always act logically, this being common behavior of normal human beings. I think Lawrence captures this perfectly. We all have flaws and weaknesses and we don't always act so nice but we all have to realise that we can try and understand why the person reacts as they do.


I was reading a commentary book last night on "Tale of Two Cities" and this study quide actually gave me good ideas on how to study any work. First off, it is good to look at the characters, then themes and then symbols. I was thinking how the roses are a fleeting symbol of beauty and might represent the lose of the woman's first love. The sea also is a very changable element in the story.

I love this paragraph; note all the key words I have underlined:

Slowly she went down one path, lingering, like one who has gone back into the past. Suddenly she was touching some heavy crimson roses that were soft as velvet, touching them thoughtfully, without knowing, as a mother sometimes fondles the hand of her child. She leaned slightly forward to catch the scent. Then she wandered on in abstraction. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested. She stood gazing at it as if she could not understand it. Again the same softness of intimacy came over her, as she stood before a tumbling heap of pink petals. Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses. They seemed to fill the place, a sunny, gay throng. She was shy of them, they were so many and so bright. They seemed to be conversing and laughing. She felt herself in a strange crowd. It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself. She flushed with excitement. The air was pure scent.

I wonder, firstly, about the meaning of the various roses as she encounters them. At the end I ponder this reference to a 'strange crowd'; also the meaning of 'conversing and laughing'. The phrase "It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself" seems to indicate she is not acting as she normally would act.
I particularly love the line refering to the fondling of a child's hand. That is lovely and so heartfelt an image, one that does indeed transport a person back to their past and their own childhood.


Quote by Hira

I don't really have anything worthwhile to add at the moment. Didn't do a second reading or anything!

That is fine. Take your time. I am going to try for a third reading myself, now that we brought up some good points. I will notice more on this repeat reading because I will know what to look for. Interesting how that works, isn't it? I will also continue my research and hope to find something more in the letters.

[Dark Muse]

I wonder, firstly, about the meaning of the various roses as she encounters them. At the end I ponder this reference to a 'strange crowd'; also the meaning of 'conversing and laughing'. The phrase "It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself" seems to indicate she is not acting as she normally would act.

Yes I found that imagery to be interesting, the way in which the roses are descirbed making her almost seem a stanger at a party. It could perhaps be becasue she is likely not the same person she was when she first lived there, as a place always seems strange when a person returns after being away, as they would usually be older and have had difference exeprinces in thier life sense thier first parting of the place.

And it does state later on that "She was not herself"

I particularly love the line refering to the fondling of a child's hand. That is lovely and so heartfelt an image, one that does indeed transport a person back to their past and their own childhood.

I found this an odd use of imagery for this story, but interesting, and it does seem that Lawerence uses somewhat contradictory images within this story. As within the story, the woman does not really appear to be very maternal, nor does she have kids of her own, and we know nothing of what her relationship with her own family was like.

And as I mentioned early at the beginign of the poem when speaking of the husband, these lines had stuck out to me:

His jacket however, did not look dejected. It was new, and had a smarl and self-confident air, sitting upon a confident body

This to me seemed a bit contridictory, considering the uncertaintiy of his situation and the fact that he did not seem confidant in his marraige or his wife's feelings for him, as several times he refers to his concerns that she was unaware of him or ignoring him.

[Janine]

Yes I found that imagery to be interesting, the way in which the roses are descirbed making her almost seem a stanger at a party. It could perhaps be becasue she is likely not the same person she was when she first lived there, as a place always seems strange when a person returns after being away, as they would usually be older and have had difference exeprinces in thier life sense thier first parting of the place.

DM, I like that "almost seem a stranger at a party". Yes, the roses in the one part seem to overwhelm her as a crowd would, or a crowd at a party, where one does not know anyone and feels to be an outsider. I think it is a good observation that she indeed, is not the same person she once was. Apparently, when she was intimate with the soldier they both were younger, although she still does not seem to be quite middle-aged or old. I think this in indicated by the description we now get of the soldier and the slight changes in his appearance and the mention of "growing slightly stout".

He was a young man, military in appearance, growing slightly stout. His black hair was brushed smooth and bright, his moustache was waxed.

And it does state later on that "She was not herself"

Exactly.

I found this an odd use of imagery for this story, but interesting, and it does seem that Lawerence uses somewhat contradictory images within this story.

Yes, and this is very typical of Lawrence's writing. He often sets up contrasts in his descriptions, even within just one sentence, suggesting a kind of questioning and dicotomy, like seeing two sides of the coin.

As within the story, the woman does not really appear to be very maternal, nor does she have kids of her own, and we know nothing of what her relationship with her own family was like.

True but one cannot really tell. She may have been more maternal, than you think. We don't know anything about her really - family or otherwise. We just don't have enough information about her in this short story. The story is only a brief impression of a day in her life. How different we can all be on different days of the year and under different circumstances. Also, we are usually much different away from our families than when we are within the family unit. People and their personalities fluctuate with the interaction with various other people also and in the environments we occupy. All of life fluctuates and chances from moment to moment; we change as well.

And as I mentioned early at the beginign of the poem when speaking of the husband, these lines had stuck out to me:

Again the physical impression of the husband has an element of contrast to it. Nothing in this story is black and white. We all live with contridictions and this makes life interesting actually. We might be strong in character but not in appearance. Complexity again is evident and this seems to make the characters come alive to me. Things are not always as they appear to be on the surface.

This to me seemed a bit contridictory, considering the uncertaintiy of his situation and the fact that he did not seem confidant in his marraige or his wife's feelings for him, as several times he refers to his concerns that she was unaware of him or ignoring him.

I think it does appear contradictory but that is ok. Life is contradictory and ironic at times. Maybe he was trying hard to get her attention by the way he dressed and carried himself or maybe this was just his natural manerism. I don't see anything really odd about that part. It seemed lifelike enough. People can look a certain way but actually feel rejected. People hide feelings well.

[Dark Muse]

Apparently, when she was intimate with the soldier they both were younger, although she still does not seem to be quite middle-aged or old.

Though we do not know how old she was when she was with the solider, we do know it has been around 10 years sense they have been together, as she said he was 26 when she knew him, and would now be 32

Also there is the one descirption of her which states:

She was a good-looking woman who seemed older then he

True but one cannot really tell. She may have been more maternal, than you think. We don't know anything about her really - family or otherwise. We just don't have enough information about her in this short story. The story is only a brief impression of a day in her life. How different we can all be on different days of the year and under different circumstances. Also, we are usually much different away from our families than when we are within the family unit. People and their personalities fluctuate with the interaction with various other people also and in the environments we occupy. All of life fluctuates and chances from moment to moment; we change as well.

Yes that is true, but within the story, to me she appears to be too much in a child-state herself to really appear to be or have the ablity to be very matronly.

Again the physical impression of the husband has an element of contrast to it. Nothing in this story is black and white. We all live with contridictions and this makes life interesting actually. We might be strong in character but not in appearance. Complexity again is evident and this seems to make the characters come alive to me. Things are not always as they appear to be on the surface.

I also find it intresting that the story seems to make a point, of pointing out how attractive and physicaly good looking both the woman and the husband are.

[Janine]

Though we do not know how old she was when she was with the solider, we do know it has been around 10 years sense they have been together, as she said he was 26 when she knew him, and would now be 32

Also there is the one descirption of her which states:

"She was a good-looking woman who seemed older then he"

Thanks, DM I did not recall the first part when I posted. Now I vaguely think I remember reading that. Glad you pointed that out. You would think by 2 1/2 readings I would have remembered that. So 10 years has elapsed - interesting. I did note that she was older than he. This interested me, because Lawrence was 7 yrs younger than his wife, Frieda. The woman's description reminds me of Frieda except, I think, it said this woman had reddish hair. Frieda was light haired with blue eyes. Frieda had had previous lovers before, she met Lawrence so maybe in this story he musing on the fact, of how it would be if his wife were to meet an ex-lover, after 10 yrs of their marriage. I wish I could find more references to this story. I will keep looking, just to find out where he got the story idea or seeds of this idea from. Lawrence wrote tons of letters so it is bound to show up in one of them. I just have to search my reference books.

Yes that is true, but within the story, to me she appears to be too much in a child-state herself to really appear to be or have the ablity to be very matronly.

I don't know. How old does one have to be to be matronly? I think there are young mothers who feel greatly for their children. I don't know if Lawrence used the child reference to her as more to something that would strike us all and pull us back to our pasts.

I also find it intresting that the story seems to make a point, of pointing out how attractive and physicaly good looking both the woman and the husband are.

Yes, it certainly did do that. I wonder why, also. I don't really have an answer to why I think Lawrence made them both physically good looking.

[Dark Muse]

"Thanks, DM I did not recall the first part when I posted. Now I vaguely think I remember reading that. Glad you pointed that out. You would think by 2 1/2 readings I would have remembered that. So 10 years has elapsed - interesting. I did note that she was older than he. This interested me, because Lawrence was 7 yrs younger than his wife, Frieda. The woman's description reminds me of Frieda except, I think, it said this woman had reddish hair. Frieda was light haired with blue eyes. Frieda had had previous lovers before, she met Lawrence so maybe in this story he musing on the fact, of how it would be if his wife were to meet an ex-lover, after 10 yrs of their marriage. I wish I could find more references to this story. I will keep looking, just to find out where he got the story idea or seeds of this idea from. Lawrence wrote tons of letters so it is bound to show up in one of them. I just have to search my reference books.

That is very interesting to know about Lawrence and his wife. And yes in the story the woman is said to have aubron hair.

" don't know. How old does one have to be to be matronly? I think there are young mothers who feel greatly for their children. I don't know if Lawrence used the child reference to her as more to something that would strike us all and pull us back to our pasts.

I was not speaking of her physical age, but the way I precieived her in reading the story, she seemed to have the mentality of a child, she seemed immature herself. And instead of trying to advance forward with her life, it seems she is trying to move backward through it.

Yes, it certainly did do that. I wonder why, also. I don't really have an answer to why I think Lawrence made them both physically good looking.

Perhaps it has to do with the way things are not always how they appear. To look at them they are both physcial attractive, and yet, they have inward blemishies that cannot be seen. It seems to be a theme with the story, the idea of outward beauty, as with the mention of the scentless roses. They are nice to look at, but do not hold anything inside of them.

[Virgil]

I'm not sure if you guys realize it, but the story is available electronically here on lit net: http://www.online-literature.com/dh_...ian-officer/7/.

[Janine]

That is very interesting to know about Lawrence and his wife. And yes in the story the woman is said to have aubron hair.

Well, his wife was the model for 'Ursula' in "The Rainbow" and "Women in Love", so I thought maybe there was some connection in this story, as well, or even to his mother, who loved roses and kept a rose garden.

I found this online in E-Notes, I believe; if you notice there are different stages of development in Lawrence's short stories. The last story we discussed was quite different, since it belonged to the last stage of short stories; but according to this online criticism, this story "Shadow in the Rose Garden" belongs to his second stage of short stories (still early); I underlined that reference:

Major Works of Short Fiction
Many critics consider Lawrence's short stories his most artistically accomplished writings and have attributed much of their success to the constraints of the form that forced Lawrence to deny himself the elaborations, diversions, and repetitions that characterize his longer works. In comparison with his novels, Lawrence's short fiction is economical in style and structure. His early stories are written in the manner of Robert Louis Stevenson and Rudyard Kipling, whose anecdotes and tales of adventure epitomized the traditional nineteenth-century English short story. Most critics concur that “Odour of Chrysanthemums” marked the emergence of a second stage in the development of Lawrence's short fiction. Composed in 1911 and published in The Prussian Officer, and Other Stories (1914), this piece incorporates the heightened realism of Henry James, Joseph Conrad, and Leo Tolstoy, and like most of Lawrence's stories from the years 1909 to 1912, focuses on the familiar events and problems of twentieth-century industrial society, while displaying concern for the lives of ordinary men and women. The title story from The Prussian Officer is regarded by many as Lawrence's first completely visionary work. This piece signaled another change in the direction of Lawrence's writing and, to some critics, in the art of short fiction at large. Written in 1913, “The Prussian Officer” combines accurate social setting with penetrating psychological analysis, exhibiting Lawrence's eagerness to explore areas beneath the surface of human behavior. Characterized by intense observation, this and other works of the period before 1925 imply the depth and complexity of ordinary experience and retain Lawrence's sharp observation of character and place.

I was not speaking of her physical age, but the way I precieived her in reading the story, she seemed to have the mentality of a child, she seemed immature herself. And instead of trying to advance forward with her life, it seems she is trying to move backward through it.

I think we just differ on this opinion of the woman and that is fine. We all maintain our own interpretation and impression. This is what makes the world an interesting place. I don't feel she is mentally like a child. I feel the woman is acting out her sincere shock at the man she has seen. I think she needs time to think about it and deal with it. I think, by the ending lines of this story, the husband and wife have a good chance now of working through this. It is better sometimes to have things out in the open and stated honestly. She did not deceive her husband in my opinion. Many husbands and wives do not reveal all they have experienced in their pasts to their spouses. I think this is a common thing. I don't believe the woman ever expected to encounter the supposedly dead ex-lover. Just seeing him would be a shock - even if he had merely been a friend - to see him now alive but not truly alive. How sad that would make one feel.
Lawrence and his wife Frieda had there periods of disagreement and strife. I think Lawrence had insight into being a husband and how it sometimes changed between husband and wife. I wish Virgil could comment now since he is married and would lend his perspective on this point of view. Hopefully he will read the story and be here to comment soon. I know he is tied up with personal matters more pressing than this story for now. We have a whole month so I am sure he will comment eventually on this whole point.

Perhaps it has to do with the way things are not always how they appear. To look at them they are both physcial attractive, and yet, they have inward blemishies that cannot be seen. It seems to be a theme with the story, the idea of outward beauty, as with the mention of the scentless roses. They are nice to look at, but do not hold anything inside of them.

Don't we all have inward blemishes? Yes, I thought the scentless roses quite significant. It seems the ex-lover also has some outward attractiveness or beauty but he is hollow within and witless (scentless) like that particular rose. I think the roses act as metaphors for the characters. Also, if you think of it the beauty of a rose quickly fades and the petals fall eventually and a bare bush is left behind. The rose metaphors in this story are really brilliant, I think.

[Quark]

Perhaps it has to do with the way things are not always how they appear. To look at them they are both physcial attractive, and yet, they have inward blemishies that cannot be seen. It seems to be a theme with the story, the idea of outward beauty, as with the mention of the scentless roses. They are nice to look at, but do not hold anything inside of them.

You're suspicious of the roses? They seemed like they made her genuinely happy, though they do destabilize her marriage. I think they're more representative of her past relationship than her present one, too. She has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover, and her entrance into this flower-strewn garden reads like a fond reminiscence of a time of when her romantic desires weren't blocked by a mediocre husband. The actual appearance of the former lover ruins it, though: just a little too real for her. This leads me to think her thoughts in the garden are half memory and half fantasy. The tension between the two pushed her toward that divided sensation she feels towards the end of the episode. ("It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think and feel"). You could say that the flowers are part of her problem, but I don't know if you could claim they're hollow and not real. They seem pretty genuine.

[Dark Muse]

I found this online in E-Notes, I believe; if you notice there are different stages of development in Lawrence's short stories. The last story we discussed was quite different, since it belonged to the last stage of short stories; but according to this online criticism, this story "Shadow in the Rose Garden" belongs to his second stage of short stories (still early); I underlined that reference:

I will not repost what you quoted, but it was very interesting informaiton.

I think we just differ on this opinion of the woman and that is fine. We all maintain our own interpretation and impression. This is what makes the world an interesting place.

Yes that is true, she just rubbed me the wrong way, and I do not think my opinon of her will soften.

She did not deceive her husband in my opinion. Many husbands and wives do not reveal all they have experienced in their pasts to their spouses. I think this is a common thing. I don't believe the woman ever expected to encounter the supposedly dead ex-lover.

I think there was some deciption in the begining, she did not just accidently return to the place where she had been with her first love, but it seemed untill she was forced to tell her husband the truth, becasue of the encounter she had, she had no real intention of doing so, but remained vauged about why she wanted to go back to that spot. And it seemed she was trying to keep her husband from knowing the truth by insisting he said nothing of who she was or of her having lived there before.

Just seeing him would be a shock - even if he had merely been a friend - to see him now alive but not truly alive. How sad that would make one feel.Lawrence and his wife Frieda had there periods of disagreement and strife. I think Lawrence had insight into being a husband and how it sometimes changed between husband and wife. I wish Virgil could comment now since he is married and would lend his perspective on this point of view. Hopefully he will read the story and be here to comment soon. I know he is tied up with personal matters more pressing than this story for now. We have a whole month so I am sure he will comment eventually on this whole point.

I might feel differently if I beleived she had any affection for her husband whatsoever, but it seems she is showing no concern for his own feelings. It seems that he truly loved her and she led him to beleive that she would return those feelings by agreeing to marry him, but then she is horribly mean to him and shows no love for him. I think the fact that her heart still seems to be with her old lover, even when she thought him dead, she clearly had not gotten over him, is in a way being unfaithful to the man she married.

[Dark Muse]

You're suspicious of the roses? They seemed like they made her genuinely happy, though they do destabilize her marriage. I think they're more representative of her past relationship than her present one, too. She has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover, and her entrance into this flower-strewn garden reads like a fond reminiscence of a time of when her romantic desires weren't blocked by a mediocre husband. The actual appearance of the former lover ruins it, though: just a little too real for her. This leads me to think her thoughts in the garden are half memory and half fantasy. The tension between the two pushed her toward that divided sensation she feels towards the end of the episode. ("It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think and feel"). You could say that the flowers are part of her problem, but I don't know if you could claim they're hollow and not real. They seem pretty genuine.

Well my opinion of the woman being what it is, the way I interpted the roses, were reflecting her own shallowness. Not to say the roses were not real, but they are an expression of the fact that her beuaty is only extneral. For she did not to me appear to have much attraction behind her apperance. As the roses are only pretty to look at and to veiw them might bring one joy, but other than that they do not offer much more.

[Quark]

Well my opinion of the woman being what it is, the way I interpted the roses, were reflecting her own shallowness. Not to say the roses were not real, but they are an expression of the fact that her beuaty is only extneral. For she did not to me appear to have much attraction behind her apperance. As the roses are only pretty to look at and to veiw them might bring one joy, but other than that they do not offer much more.

I'm going to have to go back and read some more of your posts. I actually thought she was a likable character. I found the self-absorbed husband to be more shallow. I'll go back and look at the earlier post and see if I still feel that way.

[Janine]

You're suspicious of the roses? They seemed like they made her genuinely happy, though they do destabilize her marriage. I think they're more representative of her past relationship than her present one, too. She has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover, and her entrance into this flower-strewn garden reads like a fond reminiscence of a time of when her romantic desires weren't blocked by a mediocre husband. The actual appearance of the former lover ruins it, though: just a little too real for her. This leads me to think her thoughts in the garden are half memory and half fantasy. The tension between the two pushed her toward that divided sensation she feels towards the end of the episode. ("It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think and feel"). You could say that the flowers are part of her problem, but I don't know if you could claim they're hollow and not real. They seem pretty genuine.

Quark, you are finally here; glad you didn't forget us. I agree with your observations and interpretation. I agree with what you say "she has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover" - well it has been 10 yrs since she last layed eyes on him, so her memory would be faded somewhat, and I think we do tend to 'idealise' those who pass from us, especially those who die. I think this is a totally realistic depiction of what would happen, if a woman were to encounter the man, she had been intimate with and loved and believed deceased. It is an interesting scenerio. I agree that her walk through the garden is 'half memory and half fantasy.' I find that sentence you quoted, particularly revealing of her state of mind at this time " It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think or feel". Therefore I don't think we can hold her totally responsible for not being able at this time to coherently communicate with her husband. We don't know what has transpired between husband and wife in the last 10 yrs either. Have they been happily married or at loose ends with each other. I don't think we have enough information to pass judgement on either one of them. The story has few characters and basically no one else who knows the couple, so any information is internal to each of them - the husband and the wife, until they comfront each other with this situation.

Here too one can see how discheveled her mind is at this point - how much shock she is experiencing:

She was mute and helpless. He was scrupulously dressed in dark clothes and a linen coat. She could not move. Seeing his hands, with the ring she knew so well upon the little finger, she felt as if she were going dazed. The whole world was deranged. She sat unavailing. For his hands, her symbols of passionate love, filled her with horror as they rested now on his strong thighs.

I wondered if the ring had been her engagement ring since it now was on his little finger. He might have taken it away with him to the war as a token of her love. Quite blantantly the author says "The whole world was deranged."

[Dark Muse]

I'm going to have to go back and read some more of your posts. I actually thought she was a likable character. I found the self-absorbed husband to be more shallow. I'll go back and look at the earlier post and see if I still feel that way.

That is funny how people can read so differently into the same thing. As my view is the exzact oppoiste of your own. I felt sympahty for the husband while I was turned off by the woman.

[Janine]

I identified more with the woman and the idea of returning to a place that had been special to you and full of memories of love. I have done this myself, but of course never again encountered the person. I can imagine the shock if I had.
I didn't think badly of either characters, throughout this story. I merely tried to understand them and their relationship and the way they reacted to each other at this particular time. One doesn't know how they act or react to each other on a daily basis. Lawrence usually writes in this manner with some questions at the end of a story, open for our own interpretation, so I did not think it any different of this, than other stories he had written. I can't see that Lawrence would judge either person harshly. In "Sons and Lovers" his father could be a true brut at times, and yet he found times in the book to show his side and lend sympathy to the very human qualities of his character and what made him as he was. I always see this balance in Lawrence's writing, so I could not feel any different about these two very 'human' characters, who I know little about, on a personal level.