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Thread: What if there was no god?

  1. #226
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    I would not shed a tear; my half-joking last line of the previous post aside, really, nothing would change in my life if somebody proved to me G-d did not exist. I am not even sure if I could declare myself as atheist, probably not - that would imply I solved the question for myself, saying G-d did not exist. But I did not solve that question for myself, sometime in my life I simply decided it was not in the sphere of my interests, so I left it open, and moved on. Perhaps I shall return to that question sometime later in life, who knows, and perhaps not, I cannot tell.

    There is time for everything, and as I am still in the spring of my life, I certainly do not think it is weird that I approach life differently and deal with the "Big Secret of Life" by some other means at this age, nor that I emphasise living rather than reflecting on life in this stage of my life. Maybe once I will desire to adopt religion as an explanatory system from which to view the world - and maybe not. Now I just want to sense it rather than have it explained and rather than defining it for myself.

    In my opinion, I am way too young to adopt any definite views or to define my world - and as my world is still unshaped and undefined, it cannot crush down upon hearing G-d did not exist. One cannot miss something one never had. I would go on with my life.
    It would still not have sense. And that would be even good, because any potential sense would come from within, not from the outside source, i.e. G-d. (Call me an existentialist, you probably shall not be far from truth in this aspect, even though I do not like to define myself neither in terms of philosophy nor any schools of thought.)

    ... For some reason, I still think that, if G-d exists, he appreciates my need to grow up first before deciding He was my path, which I will decide eventually if in some stage of my life I come to conclusion there is G-d, as it will be unbearable to have strong belief in Him and not to follow Him at the same time.
    And if I do not come to that conclusion, then well, for me there is no G-d, so what? Does it mean I shall quit my life or cease to enjoy it? Hell not.

    The question resembles the one our philosophy professor asked us once, what would we do had we been certain that we were Putnam's brains in a vat. Honestly, we would do nothing. Let us assume we are brains in a vat. Does the fact that we are change anything? No. Can we stop the game? No, since even if we believe ourselves dead, it would still be the result of the computer controlling us. Can we anyhow do anything in that case? Well... no. You can go desperate and overdose yourself at home, or you can go out with your lover and enjoy that "unexistant" life. I don't know about you, but I am too much of a hedonist not to prefer the latter option.

    Same with this.
    Only, with this, people go emotional and attack each other and that is tollerated because, hey, we are speaking of religion, as in, organised (more or less) and institutionalised (more or less) belief in something. But the base remains the same - your life from the point of view in relation to a Sense-Root, or lack thereof. You can approach your life from the explanatory system that bases itself in relation to it, or not; you can choose to adopt some sense, or you can give your own sense to life, or you can choose to live in a senseless world.

    For some reason, though, people are often having trouble accepting if somebody chooses the latter. Let us not forget what it leads to - putting people on the trial for not having cried on their mothers' funerals, in spite of them having killed somebody. But that is not what upsets you nearly as much as that he refused the idea of G-d, and that he did not cry on his mother's funeral.
    But I am off-topic, losing my train of thought, too much under the influence of certain substances (I swear they are legal ), and should go to bed before the bed comes to me, so good night to you all. I shall dream my music, and you can dream your G-d. After all, they are both essentially the same thing, different packing.

  2. #227
    Registered User Etienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    You are not speaking logically.

    The mode, the word, belief, is not equivalient to saying "I believe that 2+2=5"
    The whole point in logic is a mathematization of the language. 2+2=5 becomes simply an analogy to the more complex forms logic statements can take.

    A better analogy to a belief would perhaps be, x+y=5 with x and y (or one of them at least) being undefined.
    Last edited by Etienne; 01-26-2008 at 08:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Etienne View Post
    The whole point in logic is a mathematization of the language. 2+2=5 becomes simply an analogy to the more complex forms logic statements can take.

    A better analogy to a belief would perhaps be, x+y=5 with x and y (or one of them at least) being undefined.
    Yes, we're in agreement. Nothing however in my belief of God is not logical, nor is not mathematical. Reason and faith are not the same thing. This does not mean they are contrasts or opposites. Do you understand me? The mind-boggling logic of saying they are contrasts is almost disturbing to me-- what is your take on this issue, which it takes so much effort to bring Lote to face?

  4. #229
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metanoia View Post
    What if you found out with absolute certainty, that there was no god? No god, and no heaven or hell. (really think about this!) Would the knowledge that there was nothing after this life awaiting us, change the way you lived your life?
    In fact what is important is not the belief but the way one should live with. Whether or God exists cannot be realized through worldly perspectives and cannot be worded herein sentences.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  5. #230
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazefest456 View Post
    my answer would seem awful, but I'd commit suicide...really, because I'd feel nihilistic towards everything I lived for, so far. I'm not trying to say that life sux or anything; I mean that everything would lose it's value, it's Real-ness.
    How can you be sure that God exists and we have another life that makes you so much optimistic?

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  6. #231
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    It is a little presumtious to assume that just becasue God and Heaven and Hell are proven not to exisist that there would be nothing as there are many other relgions out there. For example even if there was no God or Heaven and Hell, the Buddist path could still prove to be true, as there are many many forms of Buddism, the first and early Buddisim did not worship a god figure to begin with, it was later Buddisim forms that turned Budda into a deity.

    Nor is there any heaven or hell in Buddisim
    You are right. The Buddha did not say about God, heaven and hell at all. It is indeed his followers made deviations from the original path.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  7. #232
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    faith is trust and it is logical to put your trust in God

    Allah! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave? He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.
    Last edited by iorix; 01-26-2008 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_raven View Post

    The pop-culture view of Buddhism states this, but Siddhartha's words state otherwise.
    There is no physical place like Heaven and Hell. It is sheer a state of mind and we can make heaven out of hell and hell out of heaven.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewing53 View Post
    if there was no God it would be a very dark place
    Why has it to do with the existence of God that we feel secured? Has he helped us? If in what ways?

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  10. #235
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewing53 View Post
    if there was no God it would be a very dark place
    If He really exists we cannot define or confine him in our linguistic terms at all. We can not see Him with our external eyes or understand him through sensory perceptions for he is immaterial or formless if He exists at all.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickAdams View Post
    I'm pretty certain of it now and I don't believe in an after-life. I was once more ambitious. Wanting to create a legacy, but I don't believe the earth will last forever, so it all seems futile. With one life, I want to enjoy it as much as I can. Not in the hedo sense, but I want to pursue my dreams. That's why in2008, I will paint, play music, direct film, write, write and write.
    Interesting, and I like your ideas and if you add a little charity work life will be really livable and beautiful.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  12. #237
    Registered User Etienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    Yes, we're in agreement. Nothing however in my belief of God is not logical, nor is not mathematical. Reason and faith are not the same thing. This does not mean they are contrasts or opposites. Do you understand me? The mind-boggling logic of saying they are contrasts is almost disturbing to me-- what is your take on this issue, which it takes so much effort to bring Lote to face?
    It can be logic and mathematical, but it all depends on what you take as premise. In the case of a belief in God, you have to take it's existence as a premise and follow logical development. However, the main point is that one (including myself) say that "The existence of God" is not self-evident, nor it is empirical, and will at best be doubtful and very debatable induction, but is usually bad logic, or complete lack of logic, like in the following example:

    faith is trust and it is logical to put your trust in God
    Premise 1: Faith is trust
    Premise 2: [Existence of God???]
    Conclusion: It is logical to put your trust in God...

    The conclusion, as you can see is absolutely non sequitur - it does not follow. Also Iorix, I'm not sure why you are preaching, perhaps you can make a topic about Islam preaching and Allah w... and leave this one alone?

    Therefore it is indeed possible to say that belief can and does exist without logic. Belief would be attributable to a conclusion while logic is the method, however the main point of distention here is that belief refers to an irrational belief, as in "faith" (there might be many semantic imprecision in the discussion) which Lote says does not use logic, or uses it incorrectly, which from history and experience is quite right, in my opinion.

    This is partly why I prefer a Tertullian in it's raw honesty to a Anselm of Canterbury or Descartes and their twisted logic and sophisms, which I don't believe they were not apt to see and realize themselves, but were perhaps "blinded by faith"? Even though I don't contest their respective value as philosophers and still enjoy reading them.
    Last edited by Etienne; 01-26-2008 at 09:22 PM.

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    i dont doubt the existence of God, it is not an issue for me. i put my trust in God simply to guide me through this life and in the hereafter

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    Well, I do not necessarily say that their versions of God are correct. I agree that it's wrong to take God as a premise, and I don't-- nor do you have to take its existence as a premise. I did not follow the scientific method in my entire search for God, nor can I describe all of the progression of thoughts scientifically, etc., yet I am aware of the importance of correct thinking.

    It's pure garbage to say that belief is necessarily irrational. I believe in the meta-network of numbers, and then of algebra, and geometry, and is this irrational? Let's not say that every thing anyone thinks, ever, is irrational, although that's not any different from saying belief is necessarily irrational. If belief is confined to the irrational, then there is nothing in existence which is not irrational...etc...

    Anyway if you look to my opinions about God, written further up on this page, you will see that they are not the intellectually dishonest tripings about saying it's empirical, or saying that God exists outside the dentist office because otherwise there'd be no point. I've read many philosophers and I have an exceptional mind, and I value very highly my opinion-- don't think I think about this all the time, I am just saying. And I do enjoy Descartes, too, he turned me on to philosophy.

    In my post a few ones back, I described God in several different ways. Pascal's definition of God as infinity is a good one to discuss, so if you wish to discuss it with someone who will give you reasonable arguments, then let's have an honest discussion about it. Pascal's description of God is that it is a point, a single point, traveling through the universe at infinite velocity, which connects all points virtually simultaneously. I believe Pascal came to this definition through an attempt to explain mathematically and physically the god of his scriptures. This is the problem, and I will be honest in that I don't know how to proceed from here, in examining the problem. I guess I'll leave it to the next poster to build on this. Let me assure you, I am not presuming this to exist, this infinity. I am merely describing it. This was not the premise I ever started out with, I was a little atheist kid who didn't believe my mom when she told me about God-- but it's what I believe is true now, at 19 years, after a whole life of honest searching. Of course, we come to the problem of believing the person who is telling you to trust them, but you will hopefully see at least that I wish to discuss this rationally and calmly, philosophically, nor am I here to get emotional about anything.

    That was one of Pascal's ideas. I will also say that if infinity exists, then it is connected to being. If infinity is real, then it is more real than finite being. Of course these are merely words and do not capture the essence of the objects which we discuss, but I do believe we can discuss rationally these ideas. I did not arrive at my ideas by accepting the irrational instead of the rational. I think that blindness is metaphorically or symbolically connected with darkness, I mean, and this attracts itself. We're all interconnected, and this is why I think there's darkness in us all.

  15. #240
    ahh...fairytales happyeverafter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    There is no physical place like Heaven and Hell. It is sheer a state of mind and we can make heaven out of hell and hell out of heaven.
    Blazeofglory: i'm curious...why do you believe there is no heaven and no hell?
    HaPpYeVeRaFtEr

    ~~reality is what you make it,not what it makes you~~

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