How Come Good Literature Has to be Ruined by Bad Sex

[Shea]

I'm sorry, I'm a prude. I just don't want sex scenes in my books or movies at all.

[stlukesguild]

As an artist... albeit a visual artist... I have often joked with artist friends over the notion that virtually all great art centers upon one of three topics: sex, death... and oh well, what's the third? This is not too far from the truth with art. Personally I have no problem with graphic sexual scenes in art or literature... only with graphic sexual scenes that are totally gratuitous... or graphic sexual scenes that are poorly written... or part of a book that as a whole is poorly written. I don't buy the notion that art (or literature) that is intended to arouse sensuality and not thoughtful critical responses is "not art" or even automatically substandard art. First of all I question just how well we can be certain of the artist's "intentions" in any work. Second I would note that a great deal of the masterpieces of painting and sculpture from throughout history are clearly erotic... and it would seem that arousing a feeling of sensuality is far more central to many of these than inspiring "thoughtful critical responses". At the same time... I might note that sexuality... even rather explicit at times... is not some new development in art. One might think immediately of Chaucer's Miller's Tale, a good number of Boccaccio's tales from the Decameron, the Lysistrata, the poetry of the Earl of Rochester, Baudelaire, Apollinaire, etc... Again... in judging it as art... it comes down to how good it is a art. There was a writer, I can't remember who offhand, who stated something to the effect that eroticism in art consists not so much of explicit descriptions and graphic displays of anatomical details... but rather of the sense of the artist having made love well through his or her chosen materials. In other words... the paint is caressed and cajoled... or the very choice of words evoke a sensuality of language. When it comes to sexuality in literature I immediately think of Verlaine. Verlaine composed some of the most delicate... limpid... sensual poems that evoke a romance and an eroticism like the most exquisite melody by Bach or Mozart or a marvelous nude by Watteau. He also wrote some grossly explicit erotic poems. The key word here is "gross". Most of these lack any real sensuality... any sense of fantasy... any romance. They lack everything that Verlaine is best at. The painter Lucian Freud, on the other hand, is a master at creating some of the most powerful nudes today. In many cases these are "in your face" nudes with no idealizations and no avoidance of the sexual realities of the human body (not surprising for Sigmund's grandson). Again... I find that I am not one to ever suggest what an artist SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do. What produces great art for one may lead to garbage by another. Blatant sexuality... graphic violence... death... rape... injustice... these are all themes that have produced masterpieces of art. I would never suggest that virtually any theme is taboo. I only concern myself to whether it was explored in a manner that was successful artistically... and if a given theme disturbed me... I would simply avoid those works of art and literature that dealt with it.

[Idril]

I have finally admitted to myself after reading Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer that I'm a literary prude. I don't consider myself to be a prude in everyday life or in personal conversation but when I'm reading, I don't want to read graphic sex scenes. I don't mind sex, I just don't like the really graphic descriptions of it or really course, rude language. It seems like it's just appealing to the lowest common denominator, like it's an easy way to shock without having to put any real thought into it. It's almost as if the language and subject matter are doing the evoking, not ideas or real emotion...but then again, I'm just a literary prude and not the edgy, modern, hip girl I like to think myself as.

[Nightshade]

I'm glad that sex isn't such a Taboo now- imagine how much better Tennyson's Arthurian stuff would have been with a few raunchy scenes.

Ummm sorry what?! Good literature shouldnt need the bells and whistles of graphic sex scenes to be great!

[Kent Edwins]

No, but literature that is centered around lust, temptation, and most of all tragic adultery usually is helped by a sex scene or two. Kinda hard to describe an adulterous without actually showing any of the things involved in causing her to succumb.

[*Classic*Charm*]

This is an interesting topic, because we spent alot of time talking about it in my writers' craft class last year. Whether or not you enjoy reading a sex scene, or care at all, authors often put them there for a reason. How do you feel about novels that are banned from schools for sex scenes? An example is Snow Falling on Cedars, which was banned in my school board because of two sex scenes, particular the one between minors. The scene, however, is crucial to the plot, which is otherwise of a reasonable content to be taught in a school.

I suppose the question becomes whether or not reading such a scene is acceptable for high school students.

Thoughts?

[Kent Edwins]

An example is Snow Falling on Cedars, which was banned in my school board because of two sex scenes, particular the one between minors. The scene, however, is crucial to the plot, which is otherwise of a reasonable content to be taught in a school.

I think this scene would be crucial for minors because ::shock:: minors have sex with each other all the time. Go figure the logic of the school system. Let's ban something that for content that is otherwise important, because if minors read the content they will begin to do something they are already doing.

[Dori]

No, but literature that is centered around lust, temptation, and most of all tragic adultery usually is helped by a sex scene or two. Kinda hard to describe an adulterous without actually showing any of the things involved in causing her to succumb.

I don't remember any sex scenes in The Scarlet Letter....


Not too long ago I read two books set in the Italien Renaissance: The Birth of Venus by Sarah Dunant and The Agony and the Ecstasy by Irving Stone. Both included one if not multiple sex scenes. In The Birth of Venus, the sex scene(s) were extremely graphic episodes that spanned over several pages. Alternatively, the sex scene(s) in The Agony and the Ecstasy were very subtle and brief, taking up a single paragraph. Guess which one I preferred? The Agony and the Ecstasy. Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, but it is still makes you wonder whether such graphic sex scenes are necessary. I believe they are only there to appeal.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, but it is still makes you wonder whether such graphic sex scenes are necessary. I believe they are only there to appeal.

That appeal might have been the author's intention, though! Every author wants to invoke a specific response in the reader. That's the point of writing. I your first example, perhaps the author thought that the feelings invoked by reading the scene are crucial to a deeper understanding of the text. Your second example with the shorter sex scene may have been shorter because the author did not feel it was necessary for the reader to have an intimate knowledge of the scene for the text to mean as much.

[Dori]

That appeal might have been the author's intention, though! Every author wants to invoke a specific response in the reader. That's the point of writing. I your first example, perhaps the author thought that the feelings invoked by reading the scene are crucial to a deeper understanding of the text. Your second example with the shorter sex scene may have been shorter because the author did not feel it was necessary for the reader to have an intimate knowledge of the scene for the text to mean as much.

Perhaps, but I think some things are better left unsaid.

Personally, what I found interesting was that the sex scenes were much less graphic in The Agony and the Ecstasy and that book was from a male's perspective while The Birth of Venus, which included very graphic sex scenes, was from a female's perspective. This makes me wonder; are graphic sex scenes crucial in a biographical novel of a female and not so crucial in that of a male (mind you, both novels were set in the same period of time and included many of the same characters)? This might be absurd, but it is still interesting nonetheless.

[Idril]

I don't remember any sex scenes in The Scarlet Letter....


Not too long ago I read two books set in the Italien Renaissance: The Birth of Venus by Sarah Dunant and The Agony and the Ecstasy by Irving Stone. Both included one if not multiple sex scenes. In The Birth of Venus, the sex scene(s) were extremely graphic episodes that spanned over several pages. Alternatively, the sex scene(s) in The Agony and the Ecstasy were very subtle and brief, taking up a single paragraph. Guess which one I preferred? The Agony and the Ecstasy.

I prefer the much more subtle sex scenes as well. I have a very active imagination, I don't need people to describe it in graphic detail in order to figure out what's going on. For me, the graphic detail actually takes away from the emotional impact but then again, that's just me. And that's the case in all aspects of my life, I always choose to muddle through and piece things together on my own instead of sitting there, passive while someone explains it to me.

But then, there are Diana Gabaldon sex scenes that are both graphic and vague at the same time. I don't know how she does it but she has a way of writing these scenes where you know something really dirty is going on but you can't quite work out the logistics. I would find myself often thinking, "Hey, wait a minute, if her leg is there and his hands are there, how the heck is her head there?!". ....but that's neither here nor there, sorry.

[applepie]

I can't say that I've any issue with graphic sex scenes in anything that I read, but it needs to further the plot. Sex in a story just for the sake of being there is a waste of energy to read, and I'm certain it may have been so for the author to write. I'm not sure why the fixation, but I think it has something to do with an attemp to update the view on reading. To my regret, modern books are far more likely to be read than some of the older classics. Perhaps this is publishers way of shocking people into reading more since many people (Americans at least) do not read for pleasure.

[Igetanotion]

Some sex scenes are vital to the plot of the book. And I get what some of you are saying about simply being suggestive. But, as a writer, if I am trying to get a point across, being suggestive just might not cut it. You could always say "If you were good enough, it would cut it" but maybe that isn't the case. Maybe the writer is trying to shock you, or to make you feel uncomfortable in order to convey a message that they want to within the work. For example, if a book has something like a taboo sex scene in it, the writer knows that you will be uncomfortable reading it (say something terrible like rape for example) it is a way to reach out and grab someone and make them feel the lust, or discomfort, or any other feelings that go along with sex. If it is gratuitous then that is unnecessary, but it would be a shame not to have it in a story where it belongs, it would leave so much intimacy or discomfort out.

[stlukesguild]

I find myself wondering... is this "prudery" or dislike of graphic sex limited solely to sexuality... or does it apply to graphic violence as well? If so, what do you make of The Iliad and The Odyssey, The Aeneid... or more recently... Cormac McCarthy?

[Shea]

I find myself wondering... is this "prudery" or dislike of graphic sex limited solely to sexuality... or does it apply to graphic violence as well? If so, what do you make of The Iliad and The Odyssey, The Aeneid... or more recently... Cormac McCarthy?

Hmm, that's a good question. I didn't have a problem with the Aeneid. But now, I'm trying to think of other violent books that I've read because I've never read Cormac McCarthy. I've read a bit of Dean Koontz, and I guess it depends on how the violence is portrayed. I didn't like The Corner of His Eye because you saw too much of the bad guy's perspective. But I loved By the Light of the Moon, though it did have it's share of violence.