D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Help! Virgil, I can't catch up..... I just posted another long post (that you can't read do you need glasses, or something?) and now I see about 4 more posts. I never thought I could not keep up on here. This is great though...good posts!

Wow, I'm gone a few hours and I can't believe how much was posted. I'm afraid I didn't quite read it all. I will eventually. I definitely agree with (I think it was Janine who brought it up first, but I could be wrong) the comment that Cathcart is searching for paradise. So many Lawrence stories deal with this search, that search for a perfect way of life.

I was thinking the same thing and posted it above. It is a recurring theme for Lawrence. Also, in the last story we did "Sun". That also took place on an island, didn't it? So quickly my memory fails me...

For those that have participated before on these Lawrence stories, you may have heard me say that Lawrence's ideal heavenly life is that of a flower. A flower just lives, basks in the glory of godly sunlight, is completely in tune with nature, and, more important of all. has no will, that is a desire for things and an expresson of self, which Lawrence calls ego. A flower just is. That is the pre-lapsarian condition fro Lawrence, the condition before Adam and Eve lapsed in the Garden of Eden and had to then live in the physical world. What we see in this story is contrasts between flowers and humans and other mammals. Notice the woman he marries is named Flora. Notice that all the humans on the variuos islands express their will, and even the mammals do too. Notice that the sheep that he hates in that last island bleats and causes his irritation. That bleat is an expression of its will. Cathcart cannot find hapiness because real people have wills and express it. People expressing wills have conflicts with each other. At least that is the problem of the first two islands. On the third island the problem is his humanity in conflict with the overwhelming natural elements. He cannot escape his humanity because he is not in paradise, but in a lapsed state of flesh and blood humanity. I think that is why Lawrence also contrasts him with the ghosts and spirits. He is flesh and blood human and must survive in society and against the elements. The spirits have transcended humanity; Cathcart has not. At last not until he dies.

That is interesting about the flower and the reference to the woman's name. I had not thought of that before. Also the island owner studied the flowers and plants assigning the Latin names to them. He did this on the first island only, I believe.
Also of interest to me is what you pointed out here about the 'will', even as far as the sheep exerting a will towards the man by their bleeting.
I like the way you described the three islands pointing out their shortcomings or problems, as perceived by the Master.
Finally, good observation and thought about the contrast of the man of 'flesh and blood' to that of the 'ghosts and spirits'. I think this relates back to that statement about asleep or awake. The ghosts also would be in a state of not being asleep or awake - or dead or alive. I think of Hamlet's famous speech and all the sleep references in Shakespeare where sleep represents or means death. Exactly, the man cannot achieve, even the transendence that the ghosts embody, until he is dead.

DM, thanks for that information on the Hesperides. Interesting that apples again are contained in this myth as in the Garden of Eden. Also the idea of forbidden fruit and the loss of a paradise.

Hira Wow, you all post such excellent posts! Wonderful ways to help see. Things start to unjumble. I haven't read or digested all of it at the moment though.

Hira, glad all this is helping you to understand. There are so many ways to look at this story and see it. It has so many layers and so much symbolism and meaning. As we go along more will become 'unjumbled' for you and all of us. It is a lot to digest so review the posts and I think I, for one, will take a break soon. I am getting rather exhausted.

Virgil, didn't he achieve that state of desirelessness on the second island? But then Flora's will came in the way I suppose? And wasn't there his will on the third island too, his will to be alone and shun any other company?

Good point about his own 'will'. I hope Virgil can add to this since you directed this question to him. Sorry I jumped in here.

I was searching these letters of D.H.Lawrence, most of the parts are not available online I think and I don't have the book. I came across this in his letter to E.M.Forster

Quote:
"In my Island, I wanted people to come without class or money, sacrificing nothing, but each coming with all his desires, yet knowing that his life is but a tiny section of the Whole: so that he shall fulfill his life in relation to the whole. I wanted a real community, not built out of abstinence or equality, but out of many fulfilled individualities seeking greater fulfillment.
But I can’t find anybody. Each man is so bent on his own private fulfillment – either he wants the love of a woman, and can’t get it complete or he wants to influence his fellow men (for their good, of course), or he wants to satisfy his own soul with regard to his position in eternity. And they make me tired, these friends of mine. They seem so childish and greedy, always the immediate desire, always the particular outlook, no conception of the whole horizon wheeling around."

I wonder if thats relevant.

Very significant. However, you have to understand that Lawrence wrote reams of letters - I think there are about 8 full volumes of them. I have "The Selected Letters" which does not include them all. I wish I had the time to read them all - they are fascinating.
To understand also is the fact that Lawrence often wavered from his original ideas or concepts. He was never quite 100% sure of what he really wanted his utopia or community to be. He had ideas, as stated above, but as he also stated he could not find anyone to go along with them. There were a few who were interested and the closest he came was his ranch and home in New Mexico, but that soon soured on him, much like the man in the island story became dissatisfied. Things went wrong for Lawrence too, and he had to live realistically in the real world, not one of his making. This is why I said several posts back, this story may have been fashioned after this man Lawrence knew, who owned an island, but if the truth were known, it is more about Lawrence himself, in my own opinion.

DM, I read your post and I won't requote it. I agree with all you just said in your post. Thanks for answering mine. Good point also about the cat and the sheep and how these were like the world encrouching on the islander.

Whew, I think I caught up now!

[Nossa]

Wow! I got a lot of reading to do today..

I have a few comments on some of the mentioned points.

First, I agree with you Janine that Lawrence might not be pro living in the world, and that he was, for the most part, disgusted by it. But I also believe that he wasn't pro being alone, on a stranded island, away from any human contact. One of the things I loved about this story, is the idea of balance. I think Lawrence didn't want people to be too absorbed in their everyday world, nor too abosorbed in thier own solitude. There has to be a mixture of both. I think it's very evident from the chronicle of the islander's life that being alone doesn't work eventually, and it leads to being stipped of the simple basic things in life, like sanity, human feelings and even ambition (how he gave up writing the book). I also think that, in comparison with Robinson Crusoe, they both passed through the same phase of being so alone that they were afraid of any human existence, or even the possibility of one. In Crusoe's case, he was terrified when he found a footprint on the island, becasue human being reprsented a source of threat to him after being alone for so long. The islander was in a state of disgust and contempt by the idea of anything human, and anything alive. While Crusoe managed to conquer his fears and restore himself to humanity, and eventually succeed in building his own true world, the islander went crazy.

Another point is that of the ghosts. I agree that the ghosts are an embodiment of his own inner fears and confusions. They only exsited when he was alone on the island, it's like little children when they're left alone in the darkness, they tend to see things that aren't already there. But once he had people with him, nothing was mentioned about the ghosts.

I still have to re-read the posts. I might come back with a few comments still

[Virgil]

Virgil, didn't he achieve that state of desirelessness on the second island? But then Flora's will came in the way I suppose? And wasn't there his will on the third island too, his will to be alone and shun any other company?

Yes he tried and perhaps achieved it for a little while. I think at some point he's successful on all three islands, but just momentary. And that's important too. Time moves and real life doesn't stands still.

I was searching these letters of D.H.Lawrence, most of the parts are not available online I think and I don't have the book. I came across this in his letter to E.M.Forster

Quote:
In my Island, I wanted people to come without class or money, sacrificing nothing, but each coming with all his desires, yet knowing that his life is but a tiny section of the Whole: so that he shall fulfill his life in relation to the whole. I wanted a real community, not built out of abstinence or equality, but out of many fulfilled individualities seeking greater fulfillment.
But I can’t find anybody. Each man is so bent on his own private fulfillment – either he wants the love of a woman, and can’t get it complete or he wants to influence his fellow men (for their good, of course), or he wants to satisfy his own soul with regard to his position in eternity. And they make me tired, these friends of mine. They seem so childish and greedy, always the immediate desire, always the particular outlook, no conception of the whole horizon wheeling around.

I wonder if thats relevant.

Also what are the isles of Hesperides? Some sort of paradisal islands? Does anyone know? Will look it up.

Goodness, that is very relevant. Great discovery! It seems Lawrence has these ideals in his personal life, but when it comes to writing fiction he is so much more realistic. For instance, in that letter, what does the word "fulfillment" really mean? It's very vague, and in fiction his examples are usually flowers. Flowers live in a state of fulfillment. But humans because they have ego (using Lawrence's language) can't. Hira, does that letter have a date? I would be curious.

[Virgil]

Hi Virgil, back again. I think that last post of mine might have been my alltime longest and my record. It took forever to write and to post it...but thank God it did go through ok. Amazing turnout here and it took me sometime to catch up; had to catch my breathe, too.

This is a great group, isn't it?

I was trying to locate the exact passage when the woman began to call the island owner “Cathcart”…I thought the wording was curious and almost like she was the one who made up the name. I will hunt through for it. Was that in part 2? I don’t see it in part 1, which I copied off from that internet site with the online text.

It's way past the midpoint of the story. It's shortly after the 2nd island, about the second page in from when that starts.

Last night I looked up when this story was written and I found these references in the book:

“D.H.Lawrence A Calender of His Works”.

There are several references of the story.

September 1920 At Villa Canovaia, San Gervasio, Florence, until about 28, then Venice.

Sept. 12. To Compton Mackensie: What is this I hear about Channel Isles? The Lord of the Isles. I shall write a skit on your one day [Mackenzie190]. When, six years later, Lawrence wrote ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’, Mackenzie threatened legal action.


June 1926 At the Villa Mirenda, Scandicci, Florance.

June 14. I have an invitation up to Scotland also – two invitations, Compton Mackenzie wants me to go to an isle off Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides [Moore 918]/ Lawrence must have begun his story based on Compton Mackenzie –‘’The Man
Who Loved Islands’ – at about this time.

June 27. Lawrence told Nancy Pearn he had a story nearly done. He send her a story 10 July, and 19 July asked her if she had received the islands story.

May 1027 At the Villa Mirenda.

5 May. Lawrence send The Escaped **** to Nancy Pearn.
6 May Lawrence send the corrected proofs of ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’ to Nancy Pearn


April 1928 At the Villa Mirenda.

17 April To Harry Crosby: Send you complete book of poems, and I’ll write a little introduction for it….And I’ll snd yo the MSS –‘The Man Who Loved Islands’ – and ‘Sun’ [Moore 1057].

This is interesting because, Lawrence wrote ‘Sun’ apparently, around the same time as he wrote this story. We just discussed ‘Sun’, as you know, so I included this reference. I don’t see the published date in this book of ‘MWLS’, but I will look it up online.

How interesting about "Sun" being written at this same time. And lucky for us it was our previous story. For those interested, you can go back a few pages in this thread and look up our discussion on the story "Sun." What I find interesting is that "Sun" is the converse of "The Man Who Loved Islands." They are almost opposites, except that julia in "Sun" doesn't quite achieve fulfillment either at the end. She too has people enter her world, but she is much more happy than Cathcart.

[Virgil]

The Hesperides are nymphs who live in a beautiful garden, situated in the Arcadian Mountains (Greece) or, alternatively, at the western extreme of the Mediterranean, near Mt. Atlas (hence they are sometimes considered daughters of Atlas). In this garden grows the tree with the golden apples which Gaia had given as a present to Hera on her wedding to Zeus. This garden is guarded by Ladon, a dragon with a hundred heads. The only one who succeeded in obtaining some of the apples was Heracles, who tricked Atlas to get them for him. Thus Heracles completed the eleventh of his Twelve Labors.

Very good that you bring up the mythic Heserides. I think there is significance in that too. But I believe they are a real set of islands off of Scotland, very far north. So it has a real significance and a mythic significance to the story.

[Dark Muse]

Wow! I got a lot of reading to do today..

I have a few comments on some of the mentioned points.

First, I agree with you Janine that Lawrence might not be pro living in the world, and that he was, for the most part, disgusted by it. But I also believe that he wasn't pro being alone, on a stranded island, away from any human contact. One of the things I loved about this story, is the idea of balance. I think Lawrence didn't want people to be too absorbed in their everyday world, nor too abosorbed in thier own solitude. There has to be a mixture of both. I think it's very evident from the chronicle of the islander's life that being alone doesn't work eventually, and it leads to being stipped of the simple basic things in life, like sanity, human feelings and even ambition (how he gave up writing the book).

That is a very good point.

Virgil

Very good that you bring up the mythic Heserides. I think there is significance in that too. But I believe they are a real set of islands off of Scotland, very far north. So it has a real significance and a mythic significance to the story.

I was not aware that they were indeed an acutal real place as well, thanks for sharing that.

And as Janine said, I aslo found it intresting how in the myth of Heserides we have those darn apples again.

[Janine]

Virgil, I just looked up the first time the islander was referred to as Cathcart. I wondered about this wording. Doesn't it sound as though the widow and the daughter made the name up? See bolded type below:

The widow and her quiet, rather delicate daughter of thirty-three worked for the Master, because they loved looking after him, and they were infinitely grateful for the haven he provided them. But they didn't call him "the Master". They gave him his name: "Mr Cathcart, Sir!" softly, and reverently. And he spoke back to them also softly, gently, like people far from the world, afraid to make a noise.

Could the name be significant? Is 'Cathcart' a name from history? I will try looking that up, and see if there is some reason he was named that. As you pointed out, the name 'Flora' is significant to the story; this had me pondering his name, as well.

Quote by Dark Muse

I was not aware that they were indeed an acutal real place as well, thanks for sharing that.

Dark Muse, Yes, there is an actual 'real' series of islands off the coast on Scotland. I just researched it and came up with this information:

About Compton Mackenzie

Sir Edward Montague Compton Mackenzie, (January 17, 1883, West Hartlepool, England; November 30, 1972 in Edinburgh, Scotland), was an English-born Scottish novelist and nationalist. He was educated at St Paul's School and Magdalen College, Oxford where he obtained a degree in Modern History.
He served with British Intelligence in the Eastern Mediterranean during World War I, later publishing four books on his experiences. He was Tenant of Herm and Jethou from 1920–1923 and he shares many similarities to the central character in D. H. Lawrence's short story "The Man Who Loved Islands", despite Lawrence saying "the man is no more he than I am." Mackenzie at first asked Secker, who published both authors, not to print the story and it was left out of one collection.
A co-founder of the Scottish National Party, Mackenzie built a house on the Isle of Barra in Scotland in the 1930s, just one of the islands in Europe where he established a temporary residence. It was on Barra that he gained much inspiration and creative solitude, and where he befriended a great number of people in the community he described as "the aristocrats of democracy". One such friend was John MacPherson, known as "The Coddy". MacPherson's son, Neil, recalled Mackenzie as a man of huge imagination, generosity and talent.

Read more about Compton Mackenzie by clicking on this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_Mackenzie

Link to Barra, the island inhabited by Compton Mackenzie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barra


About Barra

Barra
The Isle of Barra or Barraigh/Eilean Bharraigh (in Scottish Gaelic) is a predominantly Gaelic-speaking island, and apart from the adjacent island of Vatersay is the southernmost inhabited island of the Outer Hebrides (Na h-Eileanan Siar) in Scotland.
At the 2001 census the resident population was 1,078, and mostly Roman Catholic. The area of Barra is 35 square miles, the main village being Castlebay (Bàgh a' Chaisteil). Barra is now linked by a man-made causeway to the neighbouring island of Vatersay (Eilean Bhatarsaigh).
The west of the island has white sandy beaches backed by shell-sand machair and the east has numerous rocky inlets. Barra is abundant with stunning scenery, rare flowers and wildlife, which can be appreciated by coastal or hill walks, drives or cycle rides along the various small roads. Car and bicycle hire are available locally.
The Isle of Barra or Barraigh/Eilean Bharraigh (in Scottish Gaelic) is a predominantly Gaelic-speaking island, and apart from the adjacent island of Vatersay is the southernmost inhabited island of the Outer Hebrides (Na h-Eileanan Siar) in Scotland.

About The Outer Hebrides Islands

The Outer Hebrides, (officially known by the Gaelic name, Na h-Eileanan Siar) comprise an island chain off the west coast of Scotland.
They form part of the Hebrides, separated from the Scottish mainland and from the Inner Hebrides by the stormy waters of the Minch, the Little Minch and the Sea of the Hebrides. Formerly the dominant language of the Islands, Scottish Gaelic remains widely spoken even though it has now been largely supplanted by English in some parts.
The name for the UK Parliament constituency covering this area is Na h-Eileanan an Iar, whilst the Scottish Parliament constituency for the area continues to be officially known as Western Isles although it is almost always written as Western Isles (Eilean Siar). The islands were known as Suðreyjar ("Southern Islands"; cf. Suðrland) under Norwegian rule for about 200 years until sovereignty was transferred to Scotland in the Treaty of Perth in 1266, which followed the Battle of Largs three years earlier. Colloquially, they are sometimes referred to collectively as An t-Eilean Fada or "The Long Island"; Na h-Eileanan a-Muigh (the Outer Isles) is also heard occasionally in Scottish Gaelic.
Islands
The main islands form an archipelago. With their smaller surrounding islands these are sometimes known poetically as the Long Isle. The major islands include Lewis and Harris, North Uist, Benbecula, South Uist, and Barra. Much of the western coastline of the islands is machair, a fertile low-lying dune pastureland.[1]

If you click on this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Hebrides

you will see tons of islands off the northern coast of Scotland and Britian….interesting, isn't it?

[Nossa]

Goodness, that is very relevant. Great discovery! It seems Lawrence has these ideals in his personal life, but when it comes to writing fiction he is so much more realistic. For instance, in that letter, what does the word "fulfillment" really mean? It's very vague, and in fiction his examples are usually flowers. Flowers live in a state of fulfillment. But humans because they have ego (using Lawrence's language) can't. Hira, does that letter have a date? I would be curious.

That is a VERY true statement indeed. I'd love to get my hands on these letters!!!

In my Island, I wanted people to come without class or money, sacrificing nothing, but each coming with all his desires, yet knowing that his life is but a tiny section of the Whole: so that he shall fulfill his life in relation to the whole. I wanted a real community, not built out of abstinence or equality, but out of many fulfilled individualities seeking greater fulfillment.
But I can’t find anybody. Each man is so bent on his own private fulfillment – either he wants the love of a woman, and can’t get it complete or he wants to influence his fellow men (for their good, of course), or he wants to satisfy his own soul with regard to his position in eternity. And they make me tired, these friends of mine. They seem so childish and greedy, always the immediate desire, always the particular outlook, no conception of the whole horizon wheeling around.

This part is so significant in the story. How the islander always sought 'his' comfort and pleasure, and when it didn't suit him any more, he just sells the place and moves on.

I still got a lot of reading to do...but thank you all again for the amazing discussion

[Janine]

That is a VERY true statement indeed. I'd love to get my hands on these letters!!!

Hi Nossa, The letters can be easily obtained by buying a book of Lawrence letters; I have the "Selected Letters of D.H.Lawrence"; I bought it on Amazon online. I know they are still in-print. I started to read some of the letters about 6 months or so ago (it was hard to put them down), but I had to put them asside, to get involved in some of the book discussions on this site. I can't wait to get back to them and two new Cambridge series of biographies of the author, I recently purchased; I can't seem to get enough biological* information about Lawrence (I am quite addicted!) and I can tell you that the letters are truly fascinating and very intimate; you learn much about the author reading them. If you really want another very 'intimate' portrait of Lawrence, I suggest the 3 travel books: Twilight in Italy, Sea and Sardinia, Etruscan Places. They can be bought in one volume. I also purchased these online. You feel as though you make the journey, with him, to each place he visits. I was really taken with these fascinating books.

*Revision note: I meant to type 'biographical' not 'biological' - must have been 'subconsicous' on my part. Hahaha!

This part is so significant in the story. How the islander always sought 'his' comfort and pleasure, and when it didn't suit him any more, he just sells the place and moves on.

I still got a lot of reading to do...but thank you all again for the amazing discussion

It is significant, but I just found something that Lawrence said in a letter later in life, that sort of says something new and a little bit opposed to this quote. I must type out this and some more information, from the last book of the Cambridge biography series, called "The Dying Game". There are exerpts online and some specific commentary about this short story. I will look this up later and type it, to post on this thread. Lawrence changed his mind quite frequently or modified what he had said. This is another reason his letters are truly fascinating. One can see a kind of development or progression.

[Virgil]

I can't seem to get enough biological information about Lawrence (I am quite addicted!) and I can tell you that the letters are truly fascinating and very intimate; you learn much about the author reading them. If you really want another very 'intimate' portrait of Lawrence,

Biological? You must really want to get intimate with him. What kind of initimate portrait of Lawrence are you after, a pornographic one?

I'm sorry. That had me laughing. I bet you must mean biographical.

[Dark Muse]

LOL ok that was just too funny

[Janine]

Haaaaaaaa hhhaaaaaaaaa !!!!!

[Janine]

See below - two went through by accident....

[Janine]

Wow, everyone must need a break. I thought for sure I would be left in the dust again when I came back, and have to catch up again; I have been out all evening. I think I need a short break, as well.

'Biology' should have read 'Biography' in my former post to Nossa....well, glad I could add some humor to the thread - I did not want things to get dull on here!

Virgil, thanks for pointing that fact out and for your funny comments...I was too hysterical laughing before, to post these comment back to you.

[Hira]

Lolol

The letter is dated 28th January, 1915. I found it over here.

As an aside, I loved this painting of the Hesperides