D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Nossa]

The other allusion is to Robinson Crusoe. In a way Lawrence's story is the opposite of Crusoe. Whereas Crusoe is forced by circumstance to live on an island away from society, Cathcart chooses to live on the island. While Crusoe finds means to ways to adapt with nature and form a society with friday, Cathcart fails consistently to make the islands work, either financially or even to live.

I agree. I think that the key to Crusoe's sucess was the fact that he was willing to live side by side with nature, and any human beings who might come along. Cathcart didn't want that. Towards the end of the story, anything human, or better say anything 'alive' was repulsive to him. The fishermen, his car, the sheep he had, all were a source of disgust and contempt to him.
Somehow, after I finished the story, I felt that Lawrence is pro being involved in the world and living with other people. He showed gradually, as Virgil stated, that being isolated from the world ends up with despair, and even madness (when the man saw the heads of the seals swimming in, and he was frightened, thinking they were human beings). I also believe that by being alone and away, this even kills natural human feelings, like love. It's shown in his relationship with Flora that it became a mere pulse of desire, nothing more and nothing less. Nothing in thier life together was a show of love, it was 'mechanical'. He only married her because she was giving birth to his child.

I might have some more things to say after I re-read certain parts

[Dark Muse]

He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own.

I think this means, one needs not be completely isolated, but even with the presence of other people, and even without seculding themselves completely from the rest of the world they can still create a place of thier own. A place of sancuary for themselves.

As it was seen in the first island, where before he brought over the people, becasue of his isolation he began to feel as if the island was haunted. So when he brought others to the island, they all thought of him as "Master" it was his island, they just co-habbited with him, or beneath him, but his pressence overhwelmed it more then any of thiers.

An island, if it is big enough, is no better than a continent. It has to be really quite small, before it feels like an island; and this story will show how tiny it has to be, before you can presume to fill it with your own personality.

This is an intresting passage, and as to the first part of it, I think it is true in a way for if an island is so big that you cannot see, or walk everyside of it, then it does not feel entierly like an island, for you cannot see where the water surrounds everyside of it, and it feels as if there are parts of it out of your reach.

To the last phase, I think that the story was about the islanders attempt to find an island which he could fill entierly with his own personality and which in a way, make it feel as if it was just an extension of himself, and yet his every attempt to do so, failed ultimately. Becasue there was always some other force, or pressence, that seemed to impede upon his efforts, as much as he had tried to completely isolate himself, there was no way he could aviod the intrusion of the world upon him.

[Nossa]

Also I wonder at the infinity passages. They are beautiful aren't they?

I totally agree. I love this part:

But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the co-called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.

Just beautiful!!

[Janine]

Hi Everyone!

WOWY!
Things are really progressing on here… I went away to sleep and came back to find all these fine posts and interesting comments. This is amazing, for once, I was feeling as though I am the one who got left standing in the dust; so I had to pull up a window in ‘Word’ program to write my post and keep everyone straight, in my mind, and not become overwhelmed.

First, let me go back to newcomers, such as poor, Jeff. I can see you got left back there in the dust, too, which I hope is not discouraging. I just wanted to answer your post (way back there).
Hi Jeff, I know you said you read the story, awhile back. I hope you are enjoying the discussion so far. As you said, this story " is a very interesting read. It should provide some very thought provoking discussion." I think it has already. I am impressed. There are so many elements and layers to this seemingly, simple story. Sorry you are having such a time with "Of Human Bondage;” I wanted to read it, having seen the film. "Woman In Love" is a very good read, an complex book; if you have a chance, do read it. The thread on this forum is very good; was a great discussion last year; check it out. Will keep "Go Tell It To The Mountain" in mind; thanks.

Hello Hira, Sorry you are confused, but I think now some people have answered your post, at least particially; there are some ideas and interesting thoughts on those passages. They were good ones, and good questions, on your part. I love those passages.

Dark Muse, hi again! Last night you posted back to me “It is true, he does seem to be on the quest to find the absolute perfect instead of finding something good and working around the flaws that might occur, as soon as a flaw arises he wants to abandon it altogether and start over again.”
This is a good point, and in Virgil’s post about the contrast of Robinson Crusose and this man, the island owner, he brings out the point that one made the island work and one did not. This islander owner does not seem to be easily satisified with any location, and I wonder if it is not a reflection of Lawrence himself, since Lawrence did not stay put in any one location for long. He wandered always, looking for his perfect home and never did find it.
I agree ‘the ghosts… were congregated within the mind’ Several people have made mention of this idea, as a result of his ‘aloneness’, this being taken to the final point of insanity or lost touch with reality when he sees the swimming dolphins as ‘humans’ threatening his island solitude.
“In someways I think they might be there as perahaps a reminder, or warning against complete solitude and seculsion, and the human need to have some connection and contact and not live in complete isolation.”
I think in the beginning of the story this may be true. The ghosts, in a way, substitute human contact. I like that thought. So the islander has a need for them and yet he is in fear, also. It is a strange dichotomy. Or do you think he sees these ghost as a threat, like the dolphins at the end?

Though I think they can also be born from our natural fears, and just the way in which our minds are likely to imagine things or play tricks upon us, particuarly when we are left completely alone. It is easy to see how one might imagine ghosts upon an island in the middle of the sea, with the dark waters and the looming fog and sounds of the water. A persons mind could come up with all sorts of stories, and when one is all alone it is easy to convince themselves that those stories are truth.

They do also provide a good excuse to bring over other people to the island, and it is then of corse from this, that the first problems with that island begin to arise.

Definitely agree.

Hi Nossa,

I agree on the idea that the man in the story is restlessly looking for 'his' place in the world, a place where he can find comfort and peace.

And as I said above, this man could be Lawrence himself. He was always looking for that same comfort and peace; and Lawrence was eternally restless.

It seems that Lawrence doesn't want you to get caught up on one of the islands, so he either shows the island's imperfection from the start (like in the second island) or show it as seemingly 'perfect' but later on shows how it didn't work out (like the first island).
I wouldn't say that it's an anti-Utopia, I think it's just realistic. I mean, it IS true that you cannot find a perfect place on earth, that's why Utopia was a no-place to being with. For instance, the ghosts that haunted the first island, was replaced by the sea voices in the second island. The hostility between people in the first island, is replaced by the greyness and gloominess in the second island. In short, Lawrence is showing that no matter how 'perfect' any place might look, in comparison to elsewhere, it's gonna prove to have flaws sooner or later.

You know, last night, on second reading of Part 1, it came to me how much ‘nature’ was described on the first island. It all started out like a paradise, or 'Garden of Eden' and then when the seasons changed and winter encroached on the island how it changed his whole opinion of the island. That is when the ghosts began to creep in and all the things seemed to go wrong. It seemed that when the began to go wrong it was like a whole chain of events downward or so he began to look on the island in a negative way. Whereas, at the start of the story he had an optimistic view of his seemingly utopian residence; even though it was not a perfect place; he did try to make it so or envisioned it so. He wasn’t realistic at first, if you think of it and when realism came into the picture he did what? He fled to a new island. You are right, Nossa, certain elements seemed to substitute for other elements depending on the island. That is a very good observation, I think. I think on the first island, the island owner’s expectations were high and then he lowered them on the second island and the third his expectations had diminished greatly

Hira, I think these lines you quoted are just great.

He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own.

An island, if it is big enough, is no better than a continent. It has to be really quite small, before it feels like an island; and this story will show how tiny it has to be, before you can presume to fill it with your own personality..

This reminds me of a poem I just love by e.e.cummings called “Maggie, Millie, Molly, and May. These children go to the seaside one day to play and these are the lines, which come at the end of the poem, I love best:

may came home with a smooth round stone
As small as a world and as large as alone.

For, whatever we lost (like a you or a me)
it’s always ourselves we find in the sea.

I think in leaving the island which he is born on, which could really be a continent by what is stated in the paragraph that follows, he wanted to form a world, all unto himself, and have it just the way he wanted it.

I think this second paragraph suggests ‘civilization’ on this continent, which he has left behind. Are not all continents, as islands, surrounded by water? Also, I feel strongly he is talking about the UK or his native England (which Lawrence exiled himself from) - it is well documented that he did indeed fashion this story about a real man, Compton Mackenzie and this man owned an island off the coast of Scottland. I researched this last night and several things about it, which I will post later today. I fathom also to guess that, by one remark made by Lawrence, himself, Lawrence is more the image of the islander, than poor Mr. Mackenzie, who actually sued Lawrence, at one time, for the story. I will annodate this information later.
I think that the last line here, in foretells just what will come by the time he does find an island ‘to fill it with his own personality’…the author (Lawrence) never says it will be successful, in using the one word here to impart doubt that it can ever be accomplished – this utopian existence- by the word ‘presume’. This beginning passage is ‘prophetic’ of the outcome of the story. This islander is presuming he can form this perfect utopia.

Nossa,

think that the first line was about him being the sole Master of the island. Consequently he'd fill it with himself, with everything he sayd, everything he wants. You saw in the first island how everything he said was agree upon, and everything he wanted was granted. He was the one making all the decisions, he filled the island with himself. Hope that made sense.

Absolutely true and I agree. Good observation!


Quote by Amalia:

I think that the Island may suggest a "remoteness" that is preferable to him-and to others- instead of a "fake", oppressive society, the way they see it. That's why I would say that it is both "Utopia" and "Anti-Utopia", depending on each percpective.

Hi Amaila!
Yes, I agree with the idea that it can be both, ‘depending on each perspective’ – “Utopia” or “Anti-Utopia”. In some sense, this island existence was what he was looking for in the beginning of the story; he loved the island and walked around it frequently and loved the natural aspects of it and his life there. All seemed to be in harmony and then things began to go wrong, or as someone said ‘reality’ set in, causing his dissatisfaction and restlessness. I think it was a “Utopia” for a time and the last island definitely was an “Anti-Utopia”, which as Virgil pointed out in his post is similar to the short story of Tolstoy, which I have read Virgil and liked very much.

Notice that we are told that:"He was born on one, but it didn't suit him, as there were too many other people on it." This could be a criticism to the world as it is. The desire to live life as you choose? Then we are told that: "This egg is the islander himself." As a favourite song of mine, named "The Islander", says "God gave him it all, an island for the universe". This is a lyric which can characterise the whole story, in my opinion. Perhaps, one's self is one's best company?

I thought about this particular statement a lot, and the one about the ‘nest’ and the ‘egg’. Interesting, weren’t they? Lawrence also mentioned nest that can be looked into in the beginning of the story. Lawrence had a thing for bird’s nests. I have some absoulutely beautiful passages from his first novel, “The White Peacock” having to do with birds nest. Lawrence’s symbol of his hoped for Utopia was the phoenix bird which is reborn when rising from the flames.
Odd, I know someone who was born on an island and now lives on one and hates islands! Just opposite from this story she is - isn’t that funny? I’ll have to tell her about this story; she’s here on the forum.
You know, Amalia, now that you mentioned it, there are so many songs and lyrics in references to islands. I will have to check this song out. I like the lyrics very much. I know a song called 'Kaylinda, a Magical isle' and I will look up the lyrics of that song because I believe it also like a utopia or paradise of perfection or something to be longed for.

What I love is the way Lawrence retains the balance between the two "sides" of the issue. He mentions something which is a treasure, in my opinion. "Thus, it seems that even islands like to keep each other company." Here, we see that no matter how "lonely" a person may be, company is vital for the continuation of life.

Wonderful balance and I love that line you bolded up in your post. Yes, I was thinking of us on Lit Net how we all are pretty solitary, in reading and doing our own thing but we all do flock to this site to commune with one another. This could be seen as a little microcosmic world of it’s own away from that full aloneness a person feels. Yes, as the song goes “People, needing other people”. I think there is a line in Shakespeare’s play “Much Ado About Nothing” - goes something like this “… the world must be peopled!”

Good way of putting that – ‘company is vital for the continuation of life’, and I would probably add sanity, peace of mind, since the islander loses these by the end of the story.

Ok, I am stopping here and going next post to Virgil’s post.

Sorry, V, I’m not slighting you; just afraid I can’t post any longer a post on here…is there a word limit? I have been working on this post forever, and my brain aches; but your post is longer to quote, so I will pick up from there. Wow, I can’t get over this great response to the story, can you? Everyone has such great observations and ideas, so far. Keep them coming!

[Dark Muse]

“I think in the beginning of the story this may be true. The ghosts, in a way, substitute human contact. I like that thought. So the islander has a need for them and yet he is in fear, also. It is a strange dichotomy. Or do you think he sees these ghost as a threat, like the dolphins at the end?

I do not think the ghots at the begining really present the same threat as the dolphins do toward the end, but I wonder if perhpas, the ghots do not act as a foreshadow in some regaurds as what is to come? Or maybe they are a warning about discontentment, as ghosts are often viewed as restless or lost souls, and in someways the Island Owner can be seen in this light, as he goes from island to island searching for something that is not that, perhaps in the way a ghost my search for what they lost with thier life?

You know, last night, on second reading of Part 1, it came to me how much ‘nature’ was described on the first island. It all started out like a paradise, or 'Garden of Eden' and then when the seasons changed and winter encroached on the island how it changed his whole opinion of the island.

Very good point comparing the Island to the Garden of Eden, and I works in more then one way, as just like Eden does not last forever, nor does the Utopia of the Island.

Wonderful balance and I love that line you bolded up in your post. Yes, I was thinking of us on Lit Net how we all are pretty solitary, in reading and doing our own thing but we all do flock to this site to commune with one another. This could be seen as a little microcosmic world of it’s own away from that full aloneness a person feels. Yes, as the song goes “People, needing other people”. I think there is a line in Shakespeare’s play “Much Ado About Nothing” - goes something like this “… the world must be peopled!”.

That is a very good point, and so true. There are in fact few people I think more reculsive then me, I truly do live very much like a genuine hermit. And one of the things that I really loved about this story, is the fact that it had always been a long time wish of my own that I could just have my own secluded island somewhere and only have who I choose on it, or have no one else at all on it. But even I still ventune into online communities even if I tend to aviod society as a whole.

[Janine]

Hi again! Dark Muse, I will answer your post after dinner. Sorry I can't do it now. I am trying to catch up to all these great posts. Thanks so much for addressing my post I wrote this afternoon - whew, it took me hours and now my brain is aching. I have to take a break to eat something, but first I will post this to answer Virgil's post. I was working on it offline. Hey, this is getting very difficult you know. I think you will find some interesting chronological information (biographical) in what I am about to post.

Hi Virgil, back again. I think that last post of mine might have been my alltime longest and my record. It took forever to write and to post it...but thank God it did go through ok. Amazing turnout here and it took me sometime to catch up; had to catch my breathe, too.

The one thing I wanted to start with was the form of the story. It's really a folk tale. It even starts like one: "There was a man who loved islands." The man's name is hardly ever mentioned, just once actually, "Cathcart" I believe. Most folktales have these unnamed characters, as if to imply an everyman implication. Cathcart is everyman. And the form of the tale is the hopping from one island to another and to another, three times, just like most folktales and jokes have a pattern of three examples. The trend is to go from a large island to a smaller one and finally to an even smaller one. Another pattern is to go from a small group of people to just a couple of people and finally to just himself alone. So that as the story goes along the space shrinks and the society around him, by his own choosing, reduces. Certainly there are quite a few implications from that, as already mentioned. Cathcart is searching for a perfect world. He feels that perfect world involves less people, a simplified life, and an immersion in nature. Cathcart is striving to find the Romantic ideal, if you will.

And I think the form of this story is important to point out. Thanks for doing so. I think this story reminded me greatly of the Russian authors and also somewhat like Oscar Wilde’s fairytales, both having definite morals at the end.
I was trying to locate the exact passage when the woman began to call the island owner “Cathcart”…I thought the wording was curious and almost like she was the one who made up the name. I will hunt through for it. Was that in part 2? I don’t see it in part 1, which I copied off from that internet site with the online text.
I think it is true that this man represents the ‘everyman’ idea, so that it makes this story universal. Yes, and the first line is so characteristic of a folk tale or fairytale or fable. Last night I looked up when this story was written and I found these references in the book:

“D.H.Lawrence A Calender of His Works”.

There are several references of the story.

September 1920 At Villa Canovaia, San Gervasio, Florence, until about 28, then Venice.

Sept. 12. To Compton Mackensie: What is this I hear about Channel Isles? The Lord of the Isles. I shall write a skit on your one day [Mackenzie190]. When, six years later, Lawrence wrote ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’, Mackenzie threatened legal action.


June 1926 At the Villa Mirenda, Scandicci, Florance.

June 14. I have an invitation up to Scotland also – two invitations, Compton Mackenzie wants me to go to an isle off Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides [Moore 918]/ Lawrence must have begun his story based on Compton Mackenzie –‘’The Man
Who Loved Islands’ – at about this time.

June 27. Lawrence told Nancy Pearn he had a story nearly done. He send her a story 10 July, and 19 July asked her if she had received the islands story.

May 1027 At the Villa Mirenda.

5 May. Lawrence send The Escaped **** to Nancy Pearn.
6 May Lawrence send the corrected proofs of ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’ to Nancy Pearn


April 1928 At the Villa Mirenda.

17 April To Harry Crosby: Send you complete book of poems, and I’ll write a little introduction for it….And I’ll snd yo the MSS –‘The Man Who Loved Islands’ – and ‘Sun’ [Moore 1057].

This is interesting because, Lawrence wrote ‘Sun’ apparently, around the same time as he wrote this story. We just discussed ‘Sun’, as you know, so I included this reference. I don’t see the published date in this book of ‘MWLS’, but I will look it up online.

Also, note, that Lawrence apparently wrote “The Escaped ****”, or “The Man Who Died’”, in this time period….interesting isn’t it, to see how Lawrence’s mind was working and in what vane.

So the kernel, or idea, for this story started to form in the spring of June 1926 and Lawrence died in 1930….just 4 years later. Even though he started this story then he was working on it for a time period following that till publication. Another interesting fact is that he wrote his travel book, “Sea and Sardinia’, in 1921. I read this facinating book and it is about he and his wife spending time on an island. I recall him observing parts of the island where he thought to himself it looked like an unspoiled English countryside leading up to the sea. I felt at that time he was longing for the England he had left, but really no longer existed, especially his brief stay in Cornwall, where he was by the seaside and had found realive peace of mind, but only for a time. I think at this time, when he wrote this short story, he would very much have had ideas of islands and isolation and peaceful retirement on his mind; writing ‘Sun’, ‘TMWLI’s’ and “Sea and Sardinia” within a close period in his life and nearing his death seems to reflect that idea to me.
Then following this is the period in which he wrote: “The Plumed Serpent” 1924, then he turned from that idea of one kind of ‘utopia’ to his next travel book “Etruscan Places”, and a lost civilization that seemed to speak to him eternally. This was written around 1927, published after his death, along with “Apocalypse”, 1929, also themes of eternity and life after death.

Just a couple of allusions to other works i would like to mention, just to get them out of the way. First, as it pertains to the form of the story, i can't help recalling a Tolstoy story called "How Much Land Does A Man Need". It's a very famous short story, one I'm pretty sure Lawrence would have read, since he had read a bit of Tolstoy. The story is about a poor man who is given the privildge to own as much land as he can get, but he has to run around the perimeter of it in a day, the more he runs the more he gets to keep. He runs so hard and so far that it ultimately kills him. You can read that story here: http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/2738/. It's very short, and very didactic. It has a moral to it, just like Lawrence's story has a moral.

I find that quite interesting and a good parallel. No doubt Lawrence did read the Tolstoy story and filed it away in his incredible mind. He may have unconsciously, formed his story with thoughts of that one as an influence – the way his islands keep getting smaller and smaller. I think this story definitely imparts that same moral to the reader, although I think the Tolstoy one also says something about ‘greed’. But then the island owner was greedy for what he wanted also – solitude, and 'his own way'.

The other allusion is to Robinson Crusoe. In a way Lawrence's story is the opposite of Crusoe. Whereas Crusoe is forced by circumstance to live on an island away from society, Cathcart chooses to live on the island. While Crusoe finds means to ways to adapt with nature and form a society with friday, Cathcart fails consistently to make the islands work, either financially or even to live.

I must find that name reference. Odd that only once or twice it is actually stated in the story.

[Dark Muse]

Hi again! Dark Muse, I will answer your post after dinner. Sorry I can't do it now. I am trying to catch up to all these great posts. Thanks so much for addressing my post I wrote this afternoon - whew, it took me hours and now my brain is aching.

Hehe no worries, take your time I can relate, I was suprised to see how many posts there were already to catch up on when I signed on this morning.

[Janine]

Hehe no worries, take your time I can relate, I was suprised to see how many posts there were already to catch up on when I signed on this morning.

heheh - same here...I was truly overwhelmed!
But we are all doing great on here - what a super discussion already!
You and I will have to stay up late to catch up.We seem to be the 'night owls' and they all must be the 'morning people!' ugh...I hate getting up in the morning...

[Virgil]

Wow, I'm gone a few hours and I can't believe how much was posted. I'm afraid I didn't quite read it all. I will eventually. I definitely agree with (I think it was Janine who brought it up first, but I could be wrong) the comment that Cathcart is searching for paradise. So many Lawrence stories deal with this search, that search for a perfect way of life. For those that have participated before on these Lawrence stories, you may have heard me say that Lawrence's ideal heavenly life is that of a flower. A flower just lives, basks in the glory of godly sunlight, is completely in tune with nature, and, more important of all. has no will, that is a desire for things and an expresson of self, which Lawrence calls ego. A flower just is. That is the pre-lapsarian condition fro Lawrence, the condition before Adam and Eve lapsed in the Garden of Eden and had to then live in the physical world. What we see in this story is contrasts between flowers and humans and other mammals. Notice the woman he marries is named Flora. Notice that all the humans on the variuos islands express their will, and even the mammals do too. Notice that the sheep that he hates in that last island bleats and causes his irritation. That bleat is an expression of its will. Cathcart cannot find hapiness because real people have wills and express it. People expressing wills have conflicts with each other. At least that is the problem of the first two islands. On the third island the problem is his humanity in conflict with the overwhelming natural elements. He cannot escape his humanity because he is not in paradise, but in a lapsed state of flesh and blood humanity. I think that is why Lawrence also contrasts him with the ghosts and spirits. He is flesh and blood human and must survive in society and against the elements. The spirits have transcended humanity; Cathcart has not. At last not until he dies.

[Hira]

Wow, you all post such excellent posts! Wonderful ways to help see. Things start to unjumble. I haven't read or digested all of it at the moment though.

Virgil, didn't he achieve that state of desirelessness on the second island? But then Flora's will came in the way I suppose? And wasn't there his will on the third island too, his will to be alone and shun any other company?

I was searching these letters of D.H.Lawrence, most of the parts are not available online I think and I don't have the book. I came across this in his letter to E.M.Forster

In my Island, I wanted people to come without class or money, sacrificing nothing, but each coming with all his desires, yet knowing that his life is but a tiny section of the Whole: so that he shall fulfill his life in relation to the whole. I wanted a real community, not built out of abstinence or equality, but out of many fulfilled individualities seeking greater fulfillment.
But I can’t find anybody. Each man is so bent on his own private fulfillment – either he wants the love of a woman, and can’t get it complete or he wants to influence his fellow men (for their good, of course), or he wants to satisfy his own soul with regard to his position in eternity. And they make me tired, these friends of mine. They seem so childish and greedy, always the immediate desire, always the particular outlook, no conception of the whole horizon wheeling around.

I wonder if thats relevant.

Also what are the isles of Hesperides? Some sort of paradisal islands? Does anyone know? Will look it up.

[Dark Muse]

The Hesperides are nymphs who live in a beautiful garden, situated in the Arcadian Mountains (Greece) or, alternatively, at the western extreme of the Mediterranean, near Mt. Atlas (hence they are sometimes considered daughters of Atlas). In this garden grows the tree with the golden apples which Gaia had given as a present to Hera on her wedding to Zeus. This garden is guarded by Ladon, a dragon with a hundred heads. The only one who succeeded in obtaining some of the apples was Heracles, who tricked Atlas to get them for him. Thus Heracles completed the eleventh of his Twelve Labors.

[Janine]

Towards the end of the story, anything human, or better say anything 'alive' was repulsive to him. The fishermen, his car, the sheep he had, all were a source of disgust and contempt to him.

Nossa, Yes, interesting, how the man became repulsed by the sight of things that had at first delighted him, such as the sheep, etc. It seems to now the case that he is seeing more realistically, not through 'rose colored spectacles', as they say; now he does not like what he sees and this breeds discontentment.

Somehow, after I finished the story, I felt that Lawrence is pro being involved in the world and living with other people. He showed gradually, as Virgil stated, that being isolated from the world ends up with despair, and even madness (when the man saw the heads of the seals swimming in, and he was frightened, thinking they were human beings). I also believe that by being alone and away, this even kills natural human feelings, like love. It's shown in his relationship with Flora that it became a mere pulse of desire, nothing more and nothing less. Nothing in thier life together was a show of love, it was 'mechanical'. He only married her because she was giving birth to his child.

I don't think Lawrence ever was 'pro-being involved in the world'. He had to live in the real world and he had to deal with publishers and business matters, true, but he always looked to a new world. He was replused by many things he saw going wrong in society. Strangely enough his good friend, Audous Huxley, wrote the novel "Brave New World".
Lawrence did not live conventionally at all. He lived appart and although he liked people emensely, and many liked and even loved him, he also set himself appart and isolated himself quite a few former friends; sometimes they set him asside or cut off relations with him; he has some enemies. I think, for one thing, artists and writers and creative people of this sensibility, do tend to isolate themselves. I am sure we all understand this story, perhaps better than most would.
I think Lawrence always was looking for the answer to how to attain a utopian world, even to the day he died. He even had a name for the society he planned at one time. He called it "Rananim" and there is even a "Rananim Society" online to discuss Lawrence's works and ideas.


Hi Dark Muse,

"He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own."

I think this means, one needs not be completely isolated, but even with the presence of other people, and even without seculding themselves completely from the rest of the world they can still create a place of thier own. A place of sancuary for themselves.

Yes, and one can achieve that realistically, and he might have from the beginning of the story, but this islander was not realistic.

As it was seen in the first island, where before he brought over the people, becasue of his isolation he began to feel as if the island was haunted. So when he brought others to the island, they all thought of him as "Master" it was his island, they just co-habbited with him, or beneath him, but his pressence overhwelmed it more then any of thiers.

In a way his presense did overwhelm the others and yet in the begining they all seemed happy to serve him or work for him. I think the fact that he began to see the island differently, (winter months) he began to project a negative attitude on the whole existence of the island, and the people dwelling there. In other words his mood was infectious and nearly all vacated, eventually.

"An island, if it is big enough, is no better than a continent. It has to be really quite small, before it feels like an island; and this story will show how tiny it has to be, before you can presume to fill it with your own personality."

This is an intresting passage, and as to the first part of it, I think it is true in a way for if an island is so big that you cannot see, or walk everyside of it, then it does not feel entierly like an island, for you cannot see where the water surrounds everyside of it, and it feels as if there are parts of it out of your reach.

Good point!

To the last phase, I think that the story was about the islanders attempt to find an island which he could fill entierly with his own personality and which in a way, make it feel as if it was just an extension of himself, and yet his every attempt to do so, failed ultimately. Becasue there was always some other force, or pressence, that seemed to impede upon his efforts, as much as he had tried to completely isolate himself, there was no way he could aviod the intrusion of the world upon him.

I don't know if the 'intrusion of the world upon him' is why the island idea failed. I tend to think the islander brought on his disolution by his own actions and isolation.
I don't know either, if his main goal were to make the island an extension of himself. In a way the island would become part of him if he allowed it to; a harmony of sorts. He could have been happy perhaps, living with a few people, if all existed 'ideally' and not 'realistically'. He was looking to his island to be a perfect place, a 'Garden of Eden' paradise, to reside in and it was not so in reality. It became a human place. Human's have flaws. The island also had flaws.

I do not think the ghots at the begining really present the same threat as the dolphins do toward the end, but I wonder if perhpas, the ghots do not act as a foreshadow in some regaurds as what is to come? Or maybe they are a warning about discontentment, as ghosts are often viewed as restless or lost souls, and in someways the Island Owner can be seen in this light, as he goes from island to island searching for something that is not that, perhaps in the way a ghost my search for what they lost with thier life?

I did point out it was foreshadowing and I agree that they are different but I think they relate - the ghost images and the dolphins appearing as humans. Interesting thought - ghosts being lost souls. Afterall, isnt the islander a ghost himself at the end, being a lost soul. Is this what you are saying about his wanderings?

Very good point comparing the Island to the Garden of Eden, and I works in more then one way, as just like Eden does not last forever, nor does the Utopia of the Island.

Well, prior to this story we discussed "Sun" and we had a similar connection symbolically to the 'Garden of Eden', so it was easy to think of this same concept and knowing it recurs often in Lawrence's novels and stories. Exactly, God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden after the snake tempted Eve with the apple....this ruined that utopia. In this story there is a passage that even mentions a 'snake' in this personification about the island:

So autumn ended with rain, and winter came, dark skies and dampness and rain, but rarely frost. The island, your island, cowered dark, holding away from you. You could feel, down in the wet, sombre hollows, the resentful spirit coiled upon itself, like a wet dog coiled in gloom, or a snake that is neither asleep nor awake.

Interesting personification of the island, don't you think? The island.... “cowerd dark, holding away from you”, also “the resentful spirit coiled upon itself”, as though it were indeed a human or a distinct character in the story. I like the references of the ‘dog coiled in gloom' and the 'snake' that is neither asleep nor awake....a sort of non-living state, or limbo. This seems to reflect the state of this man.

That is a very good point, and so true. There are in fact few people I think more reculsive then me, I truly do live very much like a genuine hermit. And one of the things that I really loved about this story, is the fact that it had always been a long time wish of my own that I could just have my own secluded island somewhere and only have who I choose on it, or have no one else at all on it. But even I still ventune into online communities even if I tend to aviod society as a whole.

I am also but I do like the communion with others and the interchange of ideas and thoughts and emotions. I think one cannot truly live without these. This story demonstrates that fact and is the moral or lesson imparted.

You may long, as many do, to esape the world and search for a perfect state of solitude, but if you do find your island, DM, I don't think they will have internet service.



Nossa,

Originally Posted by Hira
"Also I wonder at the infinity passages. They are beautiful aren't they?"

I totally agree. I love this part:

I do too! I like this preceeding passage, in addition to the one below, that Hira quoted for us.

….you felt that your island was a universe, infinite and old as the darkness; not an island at all, but an infinite dark world where all the souls from all the other bygone nights lived on, and the infinite distance was near.
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
This is the danger of becoming an islander. When, in the city, you wear your white spats and dodge the traffic with the fear of death down your spine, then you are quite safe from the terrors of infinite time. The moment is your little islet in time, it is the spatial universe that careers round you.

....and what Hira quoted:

But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the co-called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.

You said "Just beautiful!!" I agree, brilliant writing.... and this speaks volumes about time. I think it addresses the whole concept of ‘time’ or perhaps ‘time in relation to isolation’, which is embodied here in these statements. I found this so interesting, when I first read it, and the more so on re-reading it. I was thinking of how time chances, or is perceived differently by people who are in captivity or lose sleep or any number of instances. This whole passage also seems to me to question the idea of perception and how we view things from different vantage points. I think this part of the story is very perceptive and wonderful.

[Dark Muse]

In a way his presense did overwhelm the others and yet in the begining they all seemed happy to serve him or work for him. I think the fact that he began to see the island differently, (winter months) he began to project a negative attitude on the whole existence of the island, and the people dwelling there. In other words his mood was infectious and nearly all vacated, eventually.

Yes that is very true, it did seem that the change which occured upon the island was rooted with his own negative thoughts that he started to project out onto everything.

I don't know if the 'intrusion of the world upon him' is why the island idea failed. I tend to think the islander brought on his disolution by his own actions and isolation.
He was looking to his island to be a perfect place, a 'Garden of Eden' paradise, to reside in and it was not so in reality. It became a human place. Human's have flaws. The island also had flaws.

Yes I do think that a lot of what occured was born from his own thoughts and mind, but it seemed particuarly with the last of the islands, he began to feel more sharply the inturstion of the outside world. As you can see it started with the sheep which suddnely became a pain for him to bare, and then it seemed the cat went the way of the people of the first island, at first it seemed he enjoyed the company of the cat, but then it was glad when he discovered the cat turned up missing.

He was looking to his island to be a perfect place, a 'Garden of Eden' paradise, to reside in and it was not so in reality. It became a human place. Human's have flaws. The island also had flaws.

That is a good point.

[Hira]

Were those ghosts and spirits out of the past, his own fabrications? When I first read it, they didn't seem to me his own imaginations. Couldn't they represent something external, beyond his control?

[Dark Muse]

I beleived they were his own fabrication, caused in part by his isolation and I think natural elements of the island and ocean which could easily lend one to invision that there are ghosts, particuarly when it gets dark.