D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[jlb4tlb]

Greetings

"The man Who Loved Islands" is a very interesting read. It should provide some very thought provoking discussion.

I still have not finished "Of Human Bondage," it is a very slow read. At times very thought provoking and at other times a totally boring read.

"woman In Love" is on my short list of upcoming classic novels. I do however read lots of more popular books in the science fiction, fantasy, horror, weird and crime fiction genres. So it will most likely get to it in a few months.

I try to read at least one "classic" per month. Last month I read Baldwin's "Go Tell It To The Mountain." An incredible read, one that is not to be missed.

Jeff

[amalia1985]

I cannot wait...I cannot wait!

[Virgil]

Thanks Virgil. I just found the article. Here is the excerpt referring to the island.

He had gathered around him people like Murry, Katherine Mansfield, Catherine Carswell, Rupert Brooke, Edward Marsh and the list goes on. He had been talking Rananim with them. His idea was that they were to get away from England to found an island community where they would establish a new pattern of life, that would spread and spread until the world was regenerated and ennobled. It was a very complete thing in Lawrence’s mind — it even had its symbol, ‘a phoenix, rising on symmetrical wings, from a circle of very beautiful flickering flames that rose upwards from the rim of the cup.’ .

Yet this story is so anti-Utopia. That somehow it can never be achieved. Why this change in views? The ending is so perfectly chilling. I was almost shivering at the end.

Yes it is so anti-utopian. It's possible that as Lawrence grew older, he saw the impossibility of such a utopia. "The Man Who Loved Islands" is a late in life story. Sometimes I wonder at how serious he was. The only work that I can recall where a utopian society is actually created is his novel The Plumed Serpent. Perhaps I'm wrong and just not recalling it all.

[Janine]

Yes it is so anti-utopian. It's possible that as Lawrence grew older, he saw the impossibility of such a utopia. "The Man Who Loved Islands" is a late in life story. Sometimes I wonder at how serious he was. The only work that I can recall where a utopian society is actually created is his novel The Plumed Serpent. Perhaps I'm wrong and just not recalling it all.

Virgil, You know, I am not sure about that. I dont know if you can actually say a utopia was created in "The Plumed Serpent" - it was the beginning of what might have been one, but I don't think it was fully realised, by the ending of the book. It could even be questionable, as to whether it would be realised in the lifetime of the novel's characters. That ending left one with a lot of questions, and you almost wished it had a sequel so you could see how things might progress or digress.

I think Lawrence was serious in thought and ideals, but he never knew how to bring it off realistically. He may have become disullusioned, by the time he wrote this short story, and as you said, it was written late in his life. Lawrence wavered so much, with this concept and idea and other concepts, such as religion, it is hard to say just what he truly did believe it. I wonder if that is why Huxley, Lawrence's close friend, went on to write "Brave New World", which entertains a similiar concept of a utopian society. I read in one of my biographies, that the main character in the novel was based on Lawrence himself, and after reading it early this year, I can well envision this being true. I am thinking that Huxley wanted to take Lawrence's concept a step further in expression in his futuristic (idealistic) novel.

[Virgil]

Virgil, You know, I am not sure about that. I dont know if you can actually say a utopia was created in "The Plumed Serpent" - it was the beginning of what might have been one, but I don't think it was fully realised, by the ending of the book. It could even be questionable, as to whether it would be realised in the lifetime of the novel's characters. That ending left one with a lot of questions, and you almost wished it had a sequel so you could see how things might progress or digress.

I think Lawrence was serious in thought and ideals, but he never knew how to bring it off realistically. He may have become disullusioned, by the time he wrote this short story, and as you said, it was written late in his life. Lawrence wavered so much, with this concept and idea and other concepts, such as religion, it is hard to say just what he truly did believe it. I wonder if that is why Huxley, Lawrence's close friend, went on to write "Brave New World", which entertains a similiar concept of a utopian society. I read in one of my biographies, that the main character in the novel was based on Lawrence himself, and after reading it early this year, I can well envision this being true. I am thinking that Huxley wanted to take Lawrence's concept a step further in expression in his futuristic (idealistic) novel.

Very good post Janine. I was thinking similar. One wonders if Lawrence really believed in a utopia or when did he become disillusioned. You're right even The Plumed Serpent is of questionable utopia. I think he believed in a personal approach to a perfect life, sort of like Birkin and Ursula at the end of WIL.

[Dark Muse]

Yes it is so anti-utopian. It's possible that as Lawrence grew older, he saw the impossibility of such a utopia. "The Man Who Loved Islands" is a late in life story. Sometimes I wonder at how serious he was. The only work that I can recall where a utopian society is actually created is his novel The Plumed Serpent. Perhaps I'm wrong and just not recalling it all.

Yes, I would have to agree with that. I had not prevsiously thought of it as a "late in life story" but now that you mention it, it does very much make sense and fit in.

In someways it seems as if it is almost a tale of the age old, grass is always greener on the otherside. It is a struggle to find a Utopia, that does not exisit, and whenever fault is found with one island, the next is imagined to be more perfect only to be discovered to have faults of its own.

It is almost as if in thier own way each of the islans is a mirage, for once one gets close, they are not what they had first appeared to be.

[Janine]

Very good post Janine. I was thinking similar. One wonders if Lawrence really believed in a utopia or when did he become disillusioned. You're right even The Plumed Serpent is of questionable utopia. I think he believed in a personal approach to a perfect life, sort of like Birkin and Ursula at the end of WIL.

Virgil, wow, thanks for the compliment. I was not sure I was expressing that right. You know when I finished "The Plumed Serpent" I felt so unsure of what Lawrence was trying to say but now that we read this book and we are discussing this topic I see a little more clearly what was going on inside of Lawrence's head. Interesting, isn't it?

Your last line is a good way to phrase it "he believed in a personal approach to a perfect life, sort of like Birkin and Ursula at the end of WIL."

Did you notice that on the first island the word 'perfect' was stated quite a number of times; I would be curious to know just how many times. I think tomorrow it would be good to quote some of those phrases. It was funny, when I kept reading that word 'perfect' and then the fact that the Master liked to be so impecably dressed and he seemed to quite particular about everything on the island, his dwelling and his personal self - I thought - geez, maybe this guy has Obessessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) - it really made me laugh in a way and I began to wonder about Lawrence himself, but I think the point is that Lawrence was stressing how he looked to establish a perfect little world or society appart from the main body of the world (perhaps the dirty disordered industrialised world?). The islands were definitely his way to escape society and maybe with Lawrence, at this juncture in his life, he wrote this almost as a wish that he knew who never be realised in his lifetime. This makes the story even more poignant, I think.


quote by Dark Muse:

In someways it seems as if it is almost a tale of the age old, grass is always greener on the otherside. It is a struggle to find a Utopia, that does not exisit, and whenever fault is found with one island, the next is imagined to be more perfect only to be discovered to have faults of its own.

It is almost as if in thier own way each of the islans is a mirage, for once one gets close, they are not what they had first appeared to be.

Dark Muse, yes, I think that is an interesting idea and partly true. People do always think the 'grass is greener on the other side'; however, I felt his jumping from island to island, also had a lot to do with his financial capabilities - didn't he run out of money when he was on the first island and was finally forced to sell it? It certainly would be struggle, if not impossible, to find a perfect utopia on this earth. However, I felt that each time he went to a new island, he made the most of his fate. I did not feel he had much choice, after he had to sell island #1, and so he 'settled' for what he had and thought of his island as being fine or better than the large island he had to begin with which he seemed to truly love, at first, until problems arose.

[Dark Muse]

yes, I think that is an interesting idea and partly true. People do always think the 'grass is greener on the other side'; however, I felt his jumping from island to island, also had a lot to do with his financial capabilities - didn't he run out of money when he was on the first island and was finally forced to sell it? It certainly would be struggle, if not impossible, to find a perfect utopia on this earth. However, I felt that each time he went to a new island, he made the most of his fate. I did not feel he had much choice, after he had to sell island #1, and so he 'settled' for what he had and thought of his island as being fine or better than the large island he had to begin with which he seemed to truly love, at first, until problems arose.

Yes that is true, though in someways, I wonder if those problems were not invented in a way, as even on the first island which he did seem to love, he complained about the so called "ghosts" and it seemed there was never a true happiness found, whenever it seemed things were going well, something would have to arise to mar that.

It seemed as if it was a struggle to find contentment, while never being able to be truly happy with what he already had.

[Janine]

Yes that is true, though in someways, I wonder if those problems were not invented in a way, as even on the first island which he did seem to love, he complained about the so called "ghosts" and it seemed there was never a true happiness found, whenever it seemed things were going well, something would have to arise to mar that.

It seemed as if it was a struggle to find contentment, while never being able to be truly happy with what he already had.

Wow, Dark Muse, you are really fast answering. I went to check email and came back to check something and you had snuck right in - good for you!
That is another really interesting thought and I feel it is also, partly true. It is sort of a universal fact that some people do indeed sabatoge themselve at times and then end up failing. I wonder if he preordained failure, by his finicky attitude. Nothing truly can be perfect and he seemed to be looking for this microcosmic world of his, to be all perfect with no flaws; rather unrealistic thinking.
I think we could look at the ghosts in different ways. I would have to look more closely at the text, to get some clearer ideas or notions, on that aspect of the story. I will re-read that part tonight, and see what comes to me. Perhaps the idea of ghosts was just a good excuse, in his mind, to bring people onto the island to begin with. Do you think the ghosts were totally fabricated in the mind of the owner of the island? Do you think they sprung from his subconscious and his own deeper fears? The ghosts definitely add a new dimension to the story at that point, and are very ominous as well, perhaps harbingers of bad fortune in the mind of the island owner(?) They also are a great descriptive device to draw us into the mystery of the island and set up a more shadowly, fortelling, uneasy atmosphere.

[Dark Muse]

Wow, Dark Muse, you are really fast answering. I went to check email and came back to check something and you had snuck right in - good for you!

LOL yeah I am just sitting here at the computer not doing much of anything else at the moment.

Nothing truly can be perfect and he seemed to be looking for this microcosmic world of his to be all perfect with now flaws, rather unrealistic thinking.

That is a very good point. It is true, he does seem to be on the quest to find the absolute perfect instead of finding something good and working around the flaws that might occur, as soon as a flaw arises he wants to abandon it altogether and start over again.

I think we could look at the ghost in different ways. I would have to look more closely at the text to get some clearer ideas or notions on that aspect of the story. I will re-read that part tonight and see what comes to me. Perhaps the idea of ghost were just a good excuse in his mind to bring people onto the island to begin with. Do you think the ghost were totally fabricated in the mind of the owner of the island? Do you think they sprung from his subconscious and his own deeper fears? The ghosts definitely add a new dimension to the story at that point and are very ominous as well, perhaps harbingers of bad fortune in the mind of the island owner(?)

I do beleive that the ghosts within this story were congregated within the mind of the owner of the Island, and I think they can be looked at in several different ways. They are an intresting asepct of the story.

In someways I think they might be there as perahps a reminder, or warning against complete solitude and seculsion, and the human need to have some connection and contact and not live in complete isolation.

Though I think they can also be born from our natural fears, and just the way in which our minds are likely to imagine things or play tricks upon us, particuarly when we are left completely alone. It is easy to see how one might imagine ghosts upon an island in the middle of the sea, with the dark waters and the looming fog and sounds of the water. A persons mind could come up with all sorts of stories, and when one is all alone it is easy to convince themselves that those stories are truth.

They do also provide a good excuse to bring over other people to the island, and it is then of corse from this, that the first problems with that island begin to arise.

[Nossa]

I'm not sure if I'd have something new to offer to the already mentioned points.
I agree on the idea that the man in the story is restlessly looking for 'his' place in the world, a place where he can find comfort and peace. It seems that Lawrence doesn't want you to get caught up on one of the islands, so he either shows the island's imperfection from the start (like in the second island) or show it as seemingly 'perfect' but later on shows how it didn't work out (like the first island).
I wouldn't say that it's an anti-Utopia, I think it's just realistic. I mean, it IS true that you cannot find a perfect place on earth, that's why Utopia was a no-place to being with. For instance, the ghosts that haunted the first island, was replaced by the sea voices in the second island. The hostility between people in the first island, is replaced by the greyness and gloominess in the second island. In short, Lawrence is showing that no matter how 'perfect' any place might look, in comparison to elsewhere, it's gonna prove to have flaws sooner or later.

I almost done with the story, I'll hopefully have more to say later

[Hira]

I don’t have much to add either. I still wonder about the first few lines

He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own.

An island, if it is big enough, is no better than a continent. It has to be really quite small, before it feels like an island; and this story will show how tiny it has to be, before you can presume to fill it with your own personality.

What do the lines in bold and italics mean? What does he mean by filling an island with one's personality? How do you fill an island with your own personality? How do you make an island your own? What does the line this story will how how tiny it has to be before you can presume to fill it with your own personality mean? I do not completely understand.

Also I wonder at the infinity passages. They are beautiful aren't they? What does he mean when he refers to infinity? Is it perfection? That the islander longed for. What is perfection anyway? You can never really hope to have what we call infinity. Our humanness limits us. And infinity can annihilate you by its very nature. I am takin it onto a different tangent I suppose. I must sound nonsensical. Cannot find a uniting strand. To make sense of the story.

[Nossa]

I think that the first line was about him being the sole Master of the island. Consequently he'd fill it with himself, with everything he sayd, everything he wants. You saw in the first island how everything he said was agree upon, and everything he wanted was granted. He was the one making all the decisions, he filled the island with himself. Hope that made sense.

[amalia1985]

I agree with all the previous excellent posts. I just want to add some points too, and forgive me if I repeat something which has been already mentioned.

I think that the Island may suggest a "remoteness" that is preferable to him-and to others- instead of a "fake", oppressive society, the way they see it. That's why I would say that it is both "Utopia" and "Anti-Utopia", depending on each percpective.

Notice that we are told that:"He was born on one, but it didn't suit him, as there were too many other people on it." This could be a criticism to the world as it is. The desire to live life as you choose? Then we are told that: "This egg is the islander himself." As a favourite song of mine, named "The Islander", says "God gave him it all, an island for the universe". This is a lyric which can characterise the whole story, in my opinion. Perhaps, one's self is one's best company?

What I love is the way Lawrence retains the balance between the two "sides" of the issue. He mentions something which is a treasure, in my opinion. "Thus, it seems that even islands like to keep each other company." Here, we see that no matter how "lonely" a person may be, company is vital for the continuation of life. Loneliness may be a "trap", there can be dangers in a life like this. It seems that noone can live all alone.

[Virgil]

What a great start to the discussion!!! I think everyone has brought up some great points. The one thing I wanted to start with was the form of the story. It's really a folk tale. It even starts like one: "There was a man who loved islands." The man's name is hardly ever mentioned, just once actually, "Cathcart" I believe. Most folktales have these unnamed characters, as if to imply an everyman implication. Cathcart is everyman. And the form of the tale is the hopping from one island to another and to another, three times, just like most folktales and jokes have a pattern of three examples. The trend is to go from a large island to a smaller one and finally to an even smaller one. Another pattern is to go from a small group of people to just a couple of people and finally to just himself alone. So that as the story goes along the space shrinks and the society around him, by his own choosing, reduces. Certainly there are quite a few implications from that, as already mentioned. Cathcart is searching for a perfect world. He feels that perfect world involves less people, a simplified life, and an immersion in nature. Cathcart is striving to find the Romantic ideal, if you will.

Just a couple of allusions to other works i would like to mention, just to get them out of the way. First, as it pertains to the form of the story, i can't help recalling a Tolstoy story called "How Much Land Does A Man Need". It's a very famous short story, one I'm pretty sure Lawrence would have read, since he had read a bit of Tolstoy. The story is about a poor man who is given the privildge to own as much land as he can get, but he has to run around the perimeter of it in a day, the more he runs the more he gets to keep. He runs so hard and so far that it ultimately kills him. You can read that story here: http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/2738/. It's very short, and very didactic. It has a moral to it, just like Lawrence's story has a moral.

The other allusion is to Robinson Crusoe. In a way Lawrence's story is the opposite of Crusoe. Whereas Crusoe is forced by circumstance to live on an island away from society, Cathcart chooses to live on the island. While Crusoe finds means to ways to adapt with nature and form a society with friday, Cathcart fails consistently to make the islands work, either financially or even to live.

That's it for now. I'll respond to some of the points brought up later.