View Poll Results: "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenyev: Final Verdict

Voters
15. You may not vote on this poll
  • * Waste of time. Wouldn't recommend it.

    0 0%
  • ** Didn't like it much.

    0 0%
  • *** Average.

    0 0%
  • **** It is a good book.

    5 33.33%
  • ***** Liked it very much. Would strongly recommend it.

    10 66.67%
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 107

Thread: Christmas Reading: "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenev

  1. #91
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    970
    Not to unnecessarily beat a dead horse, but we seem to be hung up on what constitutes a nihilist. It appears as if it is thought that someone had to affirm a given set of principles in order to be a true nihilist. Indeed, this is how nihilism is defined today. But it was not necessarily viewed that way during Turgenev's time.

    Consider this:

    ``“Nihilism was not so much a corpus of formal beliefs and programs (like populism, liberalism, Marxism) as it was a cluster of attitudes and social values and a set of behavioral affects—manners, dress, friendship patterns. In short, it was an ethos.”

    "Nihilism" — and also in large part "realism," particularly "critical realism" — meant above all else a fundamental rebellion against accepted values and standards: against abstract thought and family control, against lyric poetry and school discipline, against religion and rhetoric. The earnest young men and women of the 1860's wanted to cut through every polite veneer, to get rid of all conventional sham, to get to the bottom of things. What they usually considered real and worthwhile included the natural and physical sciences ...

    ''“While nihilism emancipated the young Russian radicals from any allegiance to the established order, it was, to repeat a point, individual rather than social by its very nature and lacked a positive program ...


    ''Since they had no cohesive, constructive social program the nihilists lacked strategic sustainability of their revolutionary movement.


    ''Such were the true nihilists, the destroyers, who did not trouble themselves about what was to be built after them. They did not exactly deny everything, for they believed firmly, fanatically, in science and in the power of the individual mind. But they thought nothing else worth the slightest respect, and they attacked and sneered at family, religion, art, and social institutions, with all the more vehemence the higher they were held in the opinion of their countrymen ... ``



    more at: http://www.counterorder.com/history.html


    And this is the key that I have tried to emphasize in my previous posts on this subject: Bazarov fully met the definition of nihilist as the term was understood at that time by Turgenev and other Russians.

  2. #92
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    20,354
    Blog Entries
    248
    hellsapoppin, may i ask why you choose such a small font? I frankly have a hard time reading that and my eyes just turn off.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #93
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    970
    Ooops! I'm terribly near-sighted and frequently have to adjust the font size on my screen --- sorry for any inconvenience.

  4. #94
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia
    Posts
    9,300
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    hellsapoppin, may i ask why you choose such a small font? I frankly have a hard time reading that and my eyes just turn off.
    Hi Virgil,
    Grace
    and I both posted some comment on the previous page...not sure if you had seen those and hoped you would comment.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #95
    Metamorphosing Pensive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Neverland
    Posts
    10,601
    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    Okay, this might seem a little odd, but how many people (or am I the only one) laughed when they read the part where Bazarov and Pavel are duelling? It seemed comical because both parties claimed to be there because they hated each other - because of the ideas the other party possessed. (Or was it because of Fenechka?? ) It was a nice place for Turgenev to show us the contrast of the different generations though.
    Fenechka was the more immediate reason but from the start they held different opinions which pressed this urge to duel inside them even more, especially Pavel.

    Well I agree, I had a hard time holding me from laughing during that part, in fact, in every conversation between Pavel and Bazarov (as far as I remember) I found something to laugh upon. Or is it that I have this habit of laughing on things normally people don't laugh at probably?

    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov
    We are what people around us see us, not what what we think we are.
    Everyone (even people we come across) don't have always the ability to see what we actually are.
    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

  6. #96
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    970
    ``hellsapoppin, may i ask why you choose such a small font? I frankly have a hard time reading that and my eyes just turn off.
    __________________
    "That day I shall always recollect with grief; with reverence also, for the gods so willed it." - Virgil, The Aeneid (V, 49)

    Mad, Bad, & Dangerous to Know
    ``




    Virgil,

    As half-blind as I am, I prefer font size that matches your signature.

  7. #97
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,368
    Everything with Pavel is a little funny. He's such a ridiculous character that it's hard not to smile.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  8. #98
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia
    Posts
    9,300
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Everything with Pavel is a little funny. He's such a ridiculous character that it's hard not to smile.
    I agree, Quark, and then of course, Pavel does have a serious and even sad side. I did find him thoroughly amusing many times though, as a character, and even at times, so ridiculous, one had to laugh out loud. I think the wit in the book was very well placed and timed, don't you? I think life has moments, when one does not know whether to laugh or cry, so I felt this quality of the book added more realism to the story.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  9. #99
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    20,354
    Blog Entries
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by hellsapoppin View Post
    ``hellsapoppin, may i ask why you choose such a small font? I frankly have a hard time reading that and my eyes just turn off.
    __________________
    "That day I shall always recollect with grief; with reverence also, for the gods so willed it." - Virgil, The Aeneid (V, 49)

    Mad, Bad, & Dangerous to Know
    ``




    Virgil,

    As half-blind as I am, I prefer font size that matches your signature.
    I am blind.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  10. #100
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia
    Posts
    9,300
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I am blind.
    I think Hellsapoppin's quote is showing up rather LARGE on my monitor -larger than yours Virgil....
    I am near-sighted also - Hellsapoppin, so if you are, as well as I, how do you read that teensy-weensy type of yours? I can hardly make out a thing.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  11. #101
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    970
    Ach! I'm goofing around with the font size so that I can read the darn thing and have somehow managed to make my on-screen printing appear small!

    I hope the board mods can re-adjust the mess I made. So sorry!!

  12. #102
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    In spleen
    Posts
    2,219
    Quote Originally Posted by hellsapoppin View Post
    ``What would happen if Bazarov and Arkady went to see Bazarov's, and then Kirsanov's?``


    A good question - while I've been trying to think it over, I cannot honestly come up with a different outcome.


    You think so? I am not that sure.
    If they came firstly to Bazarov's, can we be sure that Bazarov would act in same way he did to Pavel and Nikolay and Arkady would be kind and leaving his nihilism? Or Bazarov would act like Arkady did to his parents; with love and friendship, and Arkady would act like Bazarov did to Pavel and Nikolay, dueling with Pavel at the end?

    I think there would be a huge difference. Arkady had no real emotions to old Bazarov's, why would he be polite and friendly to them? I think his nihilism would there act similar like Bazarov did; full of irony, sarcasm and rationalism. Maybe not that strong simply because Bazarov was much smarter and had stronger personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellsapoppin View Post
    ``Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?``

    Definitely. Especially since he specifically calls himself one.

    Sorry Pensive, have to go again; you're true friends see who and what you are, if you disagree with that then you have wrong opinion about yourself.
    That brings me back to Bazarov and hellsapoppin: We are not defined by our words, we are defined by our acts. Therefore, Bazarov maybe strongly believe that he is a nihilist, but he is not. If he was a true nihilist, he would never have feelings for Ana Sergeyevna, he would never had such a sensitive ending with his parents; he would neglect love no matter of circumstances. It was easy for him to neglect God, family, love or art when doesn't care about God( nobody can't change that; it's inner feeling), he had no family close to him, he was too smart or all womens were too stupid for him and he didn't care about art(that's really subjective; I wouldn't change Guernica and Mona Lisa for jumbo pizza ). But, when some nihilistic aspects on humanity were questioned, he failed immediately and his futal resistance and unwillingness to accept it made it even worse.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  13. #103
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    970
    Regardless of what Bazarov may have thought/said, the key is 'what did Turgenev believe?' From all of my years in reading 19th century classical Russian literature, I know of no critic who thought he was not making an accurate portrayal of a nihilist.

  14. #104
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    20,354
    Blog Entries
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by hellsapoppin View Post
    Ach! I'm goofing around with the font size so that I can read the darn thing and have somehow managed to make my on-screen printing appear small!

    I hope the board mods can re-adjust the mess I made. So sorry!!
    That's alright Hellsapopin. I'm just interested in what you're saying.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  15. #105
    Registered User Etienne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    967
    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    I think there would be a huge difference. Arkady had no real emotions to old Bazarov's, why would he be polite and friendly to them? I think his nihilism would there act similar like Bazarov did; full of irony, sarcasm and rationalism. Maybe not that strong simply because Bazarov was much smarter and had stronger personality.
    Arkady was never really a nihilist and wouldn't have acted like Bazarov. Even though he might have had some nihilist beliefs they were only a surface and wouldn't affect his real character which is calm, polite and gentle. Absolutely not like Bazarov.

    That brings me back to Bazarov and hellsapoppin: We are not defined by our words, we are defined by our acts. Therefore, Bazarov maybe strongly believe that he is a nihilist, but he is not. If he was a true nihilist, he would never have feelings for Ana Sergeyevna, he would never had such a sensitive ending with his parents; he would neglect love no matter of circumstances.
    Nihilism is the ideal he tries to live with, and only this makes him a nihilist. There is no perfect nihilist, like there is no perfect Christian, for example. You are not a nihilist only if you are the "perfect" nihilist. But again this is really just semantics and hair-splitting...

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •