If god is everything, doesn't that make him evil as well as good?

[RichardHresko]

``Evil is created by the action of free will.``

By god's free will as per Isaiah 45:7.

When God refers to creating evil in that verse it is certainly not meant as 'sin' but clearly as natural evil and punishment of those God chooses. Since no one is innocent, there is no question of innocents suffering.

A good example of proper exegesis of this verse is given by John Calvin (granted, he was thoroughly Augustinian, but clearly NOT a Catholic theologian) in his commentary on Isaiah. Specifically on this verse he writes:
"Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt."

One of the difficulties we have to face is the question of how to interpret Scripture. Scripture needs interpretation, and the idea that one can just read a verse at random or interpret the "plain" words generally leads to great distortions. This verse is an excellent case in point.

[hellsapoppin]

Taking one quote out of context can lead to a misunderstanding, as you say. That is why it is so necessary to read Romans 9 along with Isaiah 45:7 (along with the other cites I listed previously) to see that, indeed, humanity is not to blame for evil or its consequences.

[RichardHresko]

Taking one quote out of context can lead to a misunderstanding, as you say. That is why it is so necessary to read Romans 9 along with Isaiah 45:7 (along with the other cites I listed previously) to see that, indeed, humanity is not to blame for evil or its consequences.

In your previous post you referred only to Isaiah 45:7.

You do not represent Romans 9 correctly. Romans 9:14 clearly states that there is no injustice on God's part. If man were not responsible for sin and God punished man, then clearly there is injustice on God's part. Romans 9 should be read in conjunction with such verses as 2 Corinthians 3:6, which states that the letter kills while the Spirit gives life.

No one merits anything other than damnation (1 Corinthians 4:7) thus any punishment we receive is just. That God elects some to be saved is by his grace and mercy, but does not affect his justice (Romans 9:20).

You might find Augustine's To Simplician interesting, since he discusses Romans 9 in some detail there.

I will be away for the next several days, but look forward to continuing the discussion on my return next week.

Pax vobiscum!

[Pendragon]

I would say read Ezekiel 18 and 33. But Rich, there is an old saying: Beware of the man with just one book. How about the man who clings to but once source to explain everything? Augustine seems to be your man. Ireneaus and St. Columba and St. Martin also wrote about these things, as later would other men like Martin Luther. How many popes issued doctrinal statements? The Books would fill a room.

Pen

[RichardHresko]

I would say read Ezekiel 18 and 33. But Rich, there is an old saying: Beware of the man with just one book. How about the man who clings to but once source to explain everything? Augustine seems to be your man. Ireneaus and St. Columba and St. Martin also wrote about these things, as later would other men like Martin Luther. How many popes issued doctrinal statements? The Books would fill a room.

Pen

I've also used Aquinas, Boethius, and Calvin in my posts (to start an alphabetical list). On this particular topic I found that Augustine suited, that's all.

I would also include people who use the Bible exclusively in your rubric about those who use just one book.

[mazHur]

Good and Evil are linked to specific spots in the brain. If someone thinks that God possesses brain of a man then surely God is responsible for good and evil otherwise NOT.
If he's only good then he is not a human being because humans have both good and bad spots in their brains. this is proven by science and is also quite near to horse sense !

[RichardHresko]

Good and Evil are linked to specific spots in the brain. If someone thinks that God possesses brain of a man then surely God is responsible for good and evil otherwise NOT.
If he's only good then he is not a human being because humans have both good and bad spots in their brains. this is proven by science and is also quite near to horse sense !

It is not clear what exactly is meant by "linked." It is not exactly clear what is meant by "Good and Evil" in this context, either. Are "Good and Evil" to be regarded as physical substances? Are they predispositions? If so, how are they to be distinguished? If only by the regions of the brain where they are somehow linked, are Good and Evil arbitrary designations, such as positive and negative for the two types of electrical charge?

Since there has thus far been no argument that God is human, or that he has a brain, or is material in any way, the argument here does not seem to work, even if one could verify any part of what was presented as "proven by science." Though a posting of the source of this proof would be interesting in and of itself.

[hellsapoppin]

``I will be away for the next several days, but look forward to continuing the discussion on my return next week.``


I hope you will have a delightful time.

And note that as Alan Watts said many years ago: more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. A god who claims to be all about love could not possibly have dictated a book he knew would be used as the greatest instrument of death in history.

[mazHur]

Rich

An interesting article has been published by TIME, issue 3rd Dec 2007,on 'what makes us Good/Evil'' and could be had of [email protected], since it is a new article no link is yet available.

[RichardHresko]

``I will be away for the next several days, but look forward to continuing the discussion on my return next week.``


I hope you will have a delightful time.

And note that as Alan Watts said many years ago: more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. A god who claims to be all about love could not possibly have dictated a book he knew would be used as the greatest instrument of death in history.

Yes, I did. Thanks! I hope everyone is doing well.

I'm not sure God dictated the Bible.

I will grant that he of course knows what was done in the name of the Bible. However, there is the important point that these acts were the choices of those acting with free will. God is not the cause of the evil. The evil comes from the turning away from God on pride.

[RichardHresko]

Rich

An interesting article has been published by TIME, issue 3rd Dec 2007,on 'what makes us Good/Evil'' and could be had of [email protected], since it is a new article no link is yet available.

Thank you!
The article is an interesting one. Mr Kluger carefully delineates what science can say, but does not have an answer to what makes us good or evil.
What is in the article is that different areas of the brain are involved in different types of moral choices. The more abstract 'reasonable' situations are handled in one area, the more emotion-laden ones in another. Conflicts can be observed by looking at fMRI's of the brain (replacing, I suppose, the old PET scan approach). This however is far from finding either Good or Evil in the hard-wiring of the brain.

[hellsapoppin]

``God is not the cause of the evil.``

Every biblical scholar whose books I have read disagrees.

[mazHur]

poppin!

Disagreement about a certain thing does not necessarily make it false. Rather it confirms the existence of that very thing which men are unable to comprehend. Not God's fault.


Rich !

good you read the article. The point is that science is still trying to find out the reason for good and evil and has no final word to say yet. One of the friends here attributed it to some ''hormones'' such as love being produced by Oxytocin.
I think we should now go to Walmart and 'buy' some love potion whenever we feel lacking in love!!

[hellsapoppin]

``it confirms the existence of that very thing which men are unable to comprehend``


Can't say I agree --- the Bible seems quite clear to me.

[mazHur]

if a man cannot comprehend a man how can he comprehend God !