Don Quixote Reading Group

[grace86]

...and the way she talked and the way she smelled huh Virgil! I loved how she was described in that part of the book. Poor Don Quixote and those nasty enchanters!! What did they do to her!!!

I should be finished within the next three weeks. Then I think I might try to read Sons and Lovers since I was behind on that reading.

Maybe even a short story or two......

[Virgil]

...and the way she talked and the way she smelled huh Virgil! I loved how she was described in that part of the book. Poor Don Quixote and those nasty enchanters!! What did they do to her!!!

I should be finished within the next three weeks. Then I think I might try to read Sons and Lovers since I was behind on that reading.

Maybe even a short story or two......

Hi Grace. Glad you're still working on it. I'm almost mid way through Part II. I loved the whole Cave of Metissor (spelling?) episode. I thought that was fascinating.

[grace86]

Hi Grace. Glad you're still working on it. I'm almost mid way through Part II. I loved the whole Cave of Metissor (spelling?) episode. I thought that was fascinating.

In my translation it's called the Cave of Montesinos. There is a really great part with the duke and duchess (hmm or is it the count and countess ) where there is a wooden horse and Don Quixote and Sancho have to ride "through the air" blindfolded...and Sancho tells these stories about seeing the universe. Well Don Quixote tells Sancho "I want you to believe what I saw down in the cave of Montesinos like you want me to believe what you saw..."

If you have gotten to that part Virgil let me know, I would love to discuss what that means.

[Virgil]

In my translation it's called the Cave of Montesinos. There is a really great part with the duke and duchess (hmm or is it the count and countess ) where there is a wooden horse and Don Quixote and Sancho have to ride "through the air" blindfolded...and Sancho tells these stories about seeing the universe. Well Don Quixote tells Sancho "I want you to believe what I saw down in the cave of Montesinos like you want me to believe what you saw..."

If you have gotten to that part Virgil let me know, I would love to discuss what that means.

That's what the cave is called for me too, I just couldn't remember. You mean that they go back to the cave and Sancho goes in? No I'm not up to that part. That sounds wonderful! I can't wait.

[PanzaFan]

Hello, I am new to the forum but I began reading Quixote a few days ago and have almost finished part one. I am having a wonderful time. I have laughed out load so often my own family thinks I have lost my senses. I can't help but feel alot like Sancho, caught by my own ignorance and assaulted constantly by others blundering misfortune. I admitt to loving this book. I searched out a group such as this to aid in my uneducated interpretations and find that I am equally entertained by your posts. If I sound pompous it is a ruse, please consider it my inability to disconnect from a good read. I suppose in that I also relate quite well to the Don. In reality I am simply happy to share this book with others, as I find myself surrounded by literary children most of the time.

[Etienne]

In my translation it's called the Cave of Montesinos. There is a really great part with the duke and duchess (hmm or is it the count and countess ) where there is a wooden horse and Don Quixote and Sancho have to ride "through the air" blindfolded...and Sancho tells these stories about seeing the universe. Well Don Quixote tells Sancho "I want you to believe what I saw down in the cave of Montesinos like you want me to believe what you saw..."

If you have gotten to that part Virgil let me know, I would love to discuss what that means.

This part is awesome! I think that in fact Don Quixote is not completely crazy (or at least is starting to be disillusioned) but is still hanging to it at that point. He doesn't really believe what Sancho saw but accepts to believe it if Sancho doesn't question his visions in the cave.

He has managed to convince himself of something, of a fantasy, because he took books for truth. At first his hallucinations were genuine, he really thought this was all true, but then at some point, enchanters-ways-are-mysterious might have been a good answer once, but every time, it made him start doubting in the depths of himself, although on surface he was still crazy but was trying to hold on this fantasy, he had gone too far already, he couldn't admit the truth even though it was half-consciously. It was some thoughts occurring to him that he was trying to hide. Now this very passage you mentioned shows the trust and friendship he has for Sancho, by partly admitting to him his doubts, but it is by asking Sancho to play the game, to help him hold to his illusions.

I really think the characters in this books are somewhat acting like kids, mainly Don Quixote and Sancho, but at the same time, all of them to a certain extent. I have remnisciences of when I was a kid creating myself fantasies and there was not this "need" not to really believe it at the moment, and then Sancho reminds me of those who would sometimes get into my games, as games, but still taking it seriously. A kid gets caught in his fantasies a bit like Quixote (although for Quixote, it's a sublimed version, but with the same principle applying).

[grace86]

PanzaFan I am glad to see you have joined us and that you are so excited about the read. Don't worry about finishing in a hurry either, this read isn't timed, we're all on different paces...so just enjoy it. It is so great that you find it as comical as the rest of us...it only gets better! And you do not sound pompous

Virgil, they do not go back to the cave, read Etienne's post, but rather, something happens to Sancho that he has kind of fabricated the details, and Don Quixote says the only way he will believe Sancho is if Sancho believes what happened while he was down in the cave by himself.

Etienne I had not thought about Don Quixote and Sancho acting as children might. That is an interesting thought and very creative. See, I was over here thinking over whether or not it would be in Don Quixote's nature to lie, but it seems like what you are saying makes more sense....do you think he's just convinced himself that what he made up is what he really saw? The description of Quixote's actions and thoughts in the cave are more vague than with Sancho....we know Sancho peeks through the cover over his eyes. So you think Sancho is really child like too? What do you think it means when Don Quixote approaches him? To me, it kind of seems like Don Quixote really knows that certain things didn't happen...is he hopeful or is there a chance he is deliberately lying?

Really do like your thoughts though.

He has managed to convince himself of something, of a fantasy, because he took books for truth. At first his hallucinations were genuine, he really thought this was all true, but then at some point, enchanters-ways-are-mysterious might have been a good answer once, but every time, it made him start doubting in the depths of himself, although on surface he was still crazy but was trying to hold on this fantasy, he had gone too far already, he couldn't admit the truth even though it was half-consciously. It was some thoughts occurring to him that he was trying to hide. Now this very passage you mentioned shows the trust and friendship he has for Sancho, by partly admitting to him his doubts, but it is by asking Sancho to play the game, to help him hold to his illusions.

I really think the characters in this books are somewhat acting like kids, mainly Don Quixote and Sancho, but at the same time, all of them to a certain extent. I have remnisciences of when I was a kid creating myself fantasies and there was not this "need" not to really believe it at the moment, and then Sancho reminds me of those who would sometimes get into my games, as games, but still taking it seriously. A kid gets caught in his fantasies a bit like Quixote (although for Quixote, it's a sublimed version, but with the same principle applying).

I didn't really think over your bit on "the enchanters" excuse Etienne, you think it might have gotten old even with Don Quixote to keep using that excuse? That is interesting...that he might have disillusioned himself. So do you think that as the novel progresses he is getting ever more knowledgeable of the fact that he is mad or ill? He might be using Sancho to help him hold on to the game if we think about the children comparison.

Haha that is funny because now I am thinking of the novel in terms of how a child grows, how when we are young it is easier to cling to our imagination and anything can be real, however as we start to grow up, our imaginations kind of dwindle away sometimes. At least, our imaginations are never what they were when we were kids, because if you have a bunch of twenty year olds or fourty year olds running around with armor on...we wouldn't get much done would we?

I love these last chapters in the book....but I don't want to finish it!!!!

[PanzaFan]

I am glad to see you have joined us and that you are so excited about the read. Don't worry about finishing in a hurry either, this read isn't timed, we're all on different paces...so just enjoy it. It is so great that you find it as comical as the rest of us...it only gets better! And you do not sound pompous

Thank you for the advice and the welcome. I can't help but read quickly because I want to see what happens.
A Question:
How can Sancho not see that Don Quixote is a madman when everyone else seems to realize it within minutes of encountering him. I know Sancho is not the brightest light on the tree but it really seems impossible that he hasn't figured it out. At times I think he knows, then I realize he doesn't really. I quess like the priest and the barber in Chap 26 I am "struck with fresh admiraion at the powerful influence of Don Quixote's madness" in its ability to overpower what little sense Sancho Panza has. Can anyone explain why Cervantes may have done this to poor Sancho? Are we meant to believe he is able to ignore DQ's madness when no one else can? I am often accused of over analysis. Should I just read it has it is, be entertained (as I am) and not care that Sancho is mildly crazy too?

[grace86]

Thank you for the advice and the welcome. I can't help but read quickly because I want to see what happens.
A Question:
How can Sancho not see that Don Quixote is a madman when everyone else seems to realize it within minutes of encountering him. I know Sancho is not the brightest light on the tree but it really seems impossible that he hasn't figured it out. At times I think he knows, then I realize he doesn't really. I quess like the priest and the barber in Chap 26 I am "struck with fresh admiraion at the powerful influence of Don Quixote's madness" in its ability to overpower what little sense Sancho Panza has. Can anyone explain why Cervantes may have done this to poor Sancho? Are we meant to believe he is able to ignore DQ's madness when no one else can? I am often accused of over analysis. Should I just read it has it is, be entertained (as I am) and not care that Sancho is mildly crazy too?

Sancho is a simple country man. He's mentioned before that he thinks his master is a little crazy, but I think what helps to keep him by his side is 1) he likes Don Quixote, and 2) Quixote has promised him an island...now why he believes his master is crazy and that he will somehow get an island from a crazy man is beyond me, but you're definitely right, Sancho isn't the brightest. He seems to be VERY country...hard working, loves to make sure he has a place to sleep and food to eat, God fearing, and when someone offers to give him a break...like an island, he's willing to go for it.

But even Sancho has his limits. Remember when he got beat so badly and thrown up in the blanket?? Well there's several occasions where he is ready to give up an island because the work/pain isn't worth it. Working back in the country life would be easier in those cases. I think he's also ignorant...he is uneducated.

[Etienne]

For Sancho, I think grace has it right. He's a simple man. Also he has grown to respect, obey and admire Don Quixote and the attraction of the island, even though he doesn't really believe it at the end (until...). He does believe it at the beginning, however I think it's a bit like Quixote madness, he is getting disillusioned, but he doesn't want to, he is ready to go through hardships and abstain from "squire sins", but he always manages anyway to "sin", which is what allows him to endure it. The promised island could be compared, if we are to follow the religious image, as heaven. And then, later, the more he's already disillusioned, the farther he has already walked down the path, and the harder it becomes to just "throw it all away" so the more he's getting entangled.

So I believe that both character's psychology is similar, however with different illusions, desires, causes, etc. and that it is a satirical image of human psychology.

"do you think he's just convinced himself that what he made up is what he really saw? The description of Quixote's actions and thoughts in the cave are more vague than with Sancho...."

I do think he's convincing himself, but not in a rational sense, a much more irrational. Let's say his imagination has grown bigger than his rationality (or his rationally shrinked smaller) so he doesn't really need to have hallucinations or visions to believe something (although at the beginning I do think hallucinations are not excluded, even if I'm skeptic about it). Really I'm laughing here in nostalgia as I remember when I was a child, the difference between reality and fantasy was really thin, and if I imagined something, I could convince myself of it, but in a very naive way. For example, I knew I wouldn't have seen, let's say a tiger, but imagination was sometimes stronger than more boring reality, and I didn't see any reason I would have not to be convinced by my imagination, it was simply more fun. Of course, this was not articulated like this rationally, but that's the analysis I come to retroactively, from my now rational and boring self

"we know Sancho peeks through the cover over his eyes. So you think Sancho is really child like too? What do you think it means when Don Quixote approaches him? To me, it kind of seems like Don Quixote really knows that certain things didn't happen...is he hopeful or is there a chance he is deliberately lying?"

Yes, I think Sancho is very much like a child. but he doesn't believe at all the visions he described while he traveled, it's more of a game for him, in part to please Don Quixote and be perhaps closer to him by sharing his world as he admires the Don. And yes, I totally agree with the fact that he knows it didn't happen, but refuting Sancho, would at the same time destroy Quixote's world. What can he tell Sancho? You're lying we haven't been flying like you said because... it's impossible? That's something Quixote cannot do without without destroying the fragile belief he has and the barely hanging trust, or at least politeness of Sancho towards his visions. So it feels like he's almost making a pause to "fix" this and make a deal with Sancho to continue on perhaps more solid bases, as at this point Quixote's "world" is almost crumbling. And then the game continue, even though tit might cause a small timidity, but in the long-run simply made the trust and friendship of both much stronger.

[Hira]

I suppose you've all finished the book? I just started it, am on chapter 10 at the moment. The translation I have is that of Charles Jarvis or Jervas. They say its too formal. Anyway.

Is nobody going to post in this thread anymore?

I do think he's convincing himself, but not in a rational sense, a much more irrational. Let's say his imagination has grown bigger than his rationality (or his rationally shrinked smaller) so he doesn't really need to have hallucinations or visions to believe something (although at the beginning I do think hallucinations are not excluded, even if I'm skeptic about it). Really I'm laughing here in nostalgia as I remember when I was a child, the difference between reality and fantasy was really thin, and if I imagined something, I could convince myself of it, but in a very naive way. For example, I knew I wouldn't have seen, let's say a tiger, but imagination was sometimes stronger than more boring reality, and I didn't see any reason I would have not to be convinced by my imagination, it was simply more fun. Of course, this was not articulated like this rationally, but that's the analysis I come to retroactively, from my now rational and boring self

I don't completely comprehend that either. Taking the episode with the windmills for instance, did he actually 'saw' those giants or he 'convinced' himself that they were giants and not windmills? As a child, would you be as thoroughly convinced as Don Quixote is? Is he really well, mad as they say, or he doesn't want to see the outside reality? Alright, the books on knight-errantry have tampered with his mind but ... I don't know. Maybe he truly, honestly, sincerely believes in all of it. Do you think we all do that? Believe in far-fetched, ridiculous suppositions and yet laugh at this more obvious departure from sanity of Don Quixote.

[grace86]

I suppose you've all finished the book? I just started it, am on chapter 10 at the moment. The translation I have is that of Charles Jarvis or Jervas. They say its too formal. Anyway.

Is nobody going to post in this thread anymore?




I don't completely comprehend that either. Taking the episode with the windmills for instance, did he actually 'saw' those giants or he 'convinced' himself that they were giants and not windmills? As a child, would you be as thoroughly convinced as Don Quixote is? Is he really well, mad as they say, or he doesn't want to see the outside reality? Alright, the books on knight-errantry have tampered with his mind but ... I don't know. Maybe he truly, honestly, sincerely believes in all of it. Do you think we all do that? Believe in far-fetched, ridiculous suppositions and yet laugh at this more obvious departure from sanity of Don Quixote.

Hello Hira! Welcome to the read...no not all of us are finished with the book. I am trying to finish the last fifty pages while I am currently on vacation. Glad to see you are with us, take your time and just enjoy the novel. We are still posting here I just think a lot of us have gotten caught up in other reads and in the holiday stuff.

Later on toward the end of the book there is a story where Don Quixote asks a question to a jasper stone bust...he asks it that if what happened in the cave of montesinos really did happen. I know you have not read that far (or a lot of you for that matter) but I think this is important because when he asks this statue this question, it really is obvious that Don Quixote himself does not know for sure whether the cave of montesinos really happened. It seems like he needs this kind of confirmation from an "outside magical force."

Enjoy the read and post any questions or comments as you like...we will all be around. I will try to check this thread more often seeing as how I am almost done with it.

Hope everyone else is doing well on their read.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi all. Like Hira, I have just started a rather leisurely read of D.Q., and thought I'd check here to see if anyone else was still in the early-ish part of their reading. Perhaps Hira and I can chat at least, and I can go back and read earlier posts to see the others' thoughts while going through.

[Etienne]

I don't completely comprehend that either. Taking the episode with the windmills for instance, did he actually 'saw' those giants or he 'convinced' himself that they were giants and not windmills? As a child, would you be as thoroughly convinced as Don Quixote is? Is he really well, mad as they say, or he doesn't want to see the outside reality? Alright, the books on knight-errantry have tampered with his mind but ... I don't know. Maybe he truly, honestly, sincerely believes in all of it. Do you think we all do that? Believe in far-fetched, ridiculous suppositions and yet laugh at this more obvious departure from sanity of Don Quixote.

Yes I think he did see visions at the beginning and later (it would be hard to believe he did not have visions at the beginning), however you do realize that at some point he stops taking taverns for castles. for example? Also his later adventures are not made around visions but are arranged by some people or happen for real.

[NickAdams]

Yes I think he did see visions at the beginning and later (it would be hard to believe he did not have visions at the beginning), however you do realize that at some point he stops taking taverns for castles. for example? Also his later adventures are not made around visions but are arranged by some people or happen for real.

Are the later adventures caused by his earlier actions?