D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[amalia1985]

I will tempt to link the serpent question-which has attracted my attention, and has greatly confused me, as well- with the following beautiful description of Lawrence, which depicts the influence of Nature, once again.

[QUOTE:
“And though the Atlantic was grey as lava, she did come at last into the sun. Even she had a house above the pluest if seas, with a vast garden, or vineyard, all vines and olives steeply, terrace after terrace, to the strip of coast- plain; and the garden full of secret places, deep groves of lemon far down in the cleft of the earth, and hidden, pure green reservoirs of water; then a spring issuing out of a little cavern, where the old Sicules had drunk before the Greeks came; and a grey goat bloating, stabled in a ancient tomb, with all the niches empty. There was the scent of mimosa and beyond the snow of the volcano” QUOTE]

I think that this is a description of an Eden- like place, and the garden has a certain connotation, as a symbol of the unknown, if you like, something mysterious. I would venture to say that it can be another image for the temptation of escaping the present life.

The repetition of “lava”, and “volcano”, is significant too, in my opinion. I have read that volcano often stands as a symbol for the hidden female nature, at least, in poetry, especially in poems by Elizabeth Bishop and Louise Bogan, but there is a possibility that this symbolism is eligible in our story, as well. You know, just as an idea.

[Dark Muse]

I just fininnsed reading the Sun, and I must say I really did enjoy it. I thought the story read almost like poetic verse. I loved the discription of Juliet's love affair with the sun and the errotic emagery that Lawrence used in the way in which the sun caressed her and penetrated her, embraring her within its warmth and the way she was cast almost as some nymph, frolicking naked under the light of the sun.

One of the things I really enjoyed about the story, was the way Juilet's relationship to her son was portrayed particuarly towrd the beginning.

"The child irritated her, and preyed on her peace of mind. She felt so horribly, ghastly responsible for him: as if she must be responsible for every breath he drew. And that was torture to her, to the child, and to everyone else concerned."

That struck me as very real, I could see, how having a child paricuarly if it is a first child could make a woman feel repressed in a way and as if some of her own freedom and independnce is taken away becasue she has to put so much of herself in the care for this other being.

That is one of the thing I really like about Lawrence the way he likes to expose these seceret parts of the mind and bring them to light and to the surface, though and emotions that most people keep locked away and hidden deep within, he seems to understand so well.

[Janine]

I will tempt to link the serpent question-which has attracted my attention, and has greatly confused me, as well- with the following beautiful description of Lawrence, which depicts the influence of Nature, once again.

Hi amalia, did you read my post directly before yours, long one with the quotes about serpents and their possible significance, or connection to the sun. I hope that did not confuse you; sorry if it did.
I see perfectly what you are getting at here and this is a fascinating thought and idea. 'The Garden of Eden' is certainly an interesting aspect to look at in this story. The text does seems to imply this in that one paragraph; everything is so pure and perfect. I requoted below:

“And though the Atlantic was grey as lava, she did come at last into the sun. Even she had a house above the bluest if seas, with a vast garden, or vineyard, all vines and olives steeply, terrace after terrace, to the strip of coast-plain; and the garden full of secret places, deep groves of lemon far down in the cleft of the earth, and hidden, pure green reservoirs of water; then a spring issuing out of a little cavern, where the old Sicules had drunk before the Greeks came; and a grey goat bleating, stabled in a ancient tomb, with all the niches empty. There was the scent of mimosa and beyond the snow of the volcano”

I think that this is a description of an Eden- like place, and the garden has a certain connotation, as a symbol of the unknown, if you like, something mysterious. I would venture to say that it can be another image for the temptation of escaping the present life.

amalia, smart thinking - this is really good, I had not thought of that exactly in this way, but Virgil did mention before, that this story is a revisiting of an ancient time and world; and your idea is perfect, too. There is a lot going on here, in this one paragraph, don't you agree? It certainly does seem to indicate a sort of paradise and 'Eden' for Juliet, and from what I have read after "Plumed Serpent" Lawrence went back to Italy and turned futher away from the Indian myths, he had explored in that book, and went more in the direction of exploring Christinanity, but not in a 'conventional' way as well know, by reading the book "The Man Who Died". Interesting also to note that in his Italian Travel books, the first book, "Twilight in Italy", Lawrence goes on a long hike/kind of quest into the mountains and observes crossed and shrines enroute and ponders on these. His vision of this road is quite extraordinary. So what I am trying to say, is that at this period in L's writing, I think it totally conceivable, that he is thinking in terms of Eden and Biblical references. Didn't the serpent tempt Eve? I would think this something to think about in reference to the story, as well. At the end the woman, Juliet, is tempted to have an affair with the peasant. This all seems curious to me - the connections.

In the passage you quoted the imagery is lovely and 'idllyic' and very much rooted in the old world, or the Bible, and it's naturalic qualities. I like the reference to "the garden full of secret places". I think this is a direct analogy to a woman's body, since Lawrence used this phrase often in his poetry and in "Lady Chatterly's Lover", etc. Perhaps the woman, Juliet, personifies or embodies the whole idea of the Garden of Eden. She has not only undergone a 'tranformation/transfiguration', but moved back into a time of complete beauty and paradise, and purity. Also, if Lawrence is embodying the Garden of Eden in Juliet, then I would think he is saying that sexuality is totally natural and goes back to day #1 on the earth. This would support all his naturistic ideals. Probably there are direct references in Genesis to that paragraph and each element - like the blue sea, the lemons, reservoirs of water, etc.

The repetition of “lava”, and “volcano”, is significant too, in my opinion. I have read that volcano often stands as a symbol for the hidden female nature, at least, in poetry, especially in poems by Elizabeth Bishop and Louise Bogan, but there is a possibility that this symbolism is eligible in our story, as well. You know, just as an idea.

Oh, I like this symbolism. It is such an interesting thought and would definitely fit the way in which Lawrence thought and wrote. The lava I am sure would indicate the male's role, don't you? I don't know the works of those poets you listed, but I will have to look them up...sounds interesting.

Lawrence wrote a poem called "Snake". I find it strange that in the poem he uses these words to describe the snake:

Being earth-brown, earth golden, from the burning bowels
of the earth
On the day of Sicilian July, with Etna smoking.

In "Sun" he refers to the snake this way: "The snake had sunk down, and was reaching away from the coils in which it had been basking asleep, and slowly was easing it's gold-brown body into the rocks, with slow curves."

Rather similiar, I think, plus again, there is the reference to a 'volcano' in the line the "burning bowels of the earth" (quote from the poem, above) and the name of one. This would certainly correspond to your idea of the volcano and what it suggests or represents. Other parallels seem to be the mentioning of a Siciian July and Etna smoking...again the volcano.
You sent me in an interesting direction thinking, amalia - thanks; good post!

Then the last three stanzas:

And I thought of the albatross,
And I wished he would come back, my snake.

For he seemed to me again like a king,
Like a king in exile, uncrowned in the underworld,
Now due to be crowned again.

And so, I missed my chance with one of the lords
Of life,
And I have somethings to expiate;
A pettiness.

It would be good to read the entire poem, of course, but one can see what direction Lawrence's mind and thoughts took...snake, serpent, king, diety, etc. Not sure when this poem was written. I will try to look that up. It maybe around the same time period. I believe it was when he lived in Italy but not sure which time period that was.

[Dark Muse]

And I thought of the albatross,
And I wished he would come back, my snake.

For he seemed to me again like a king,
Like a king in exile, uncrowned in the underworld,
Now due to be crowned again.

And so, I missed my chance with one of the lords
Of life,
And I have somethings to expiate;
A pettiness.

That makes me think of the Ancient Mariner by Coleridge

It is intresting the similarties between the imagery of the snake, in the poem Snake, and the story Sun, as well as both having a volcanic reference.

[Janine]

I just fininnsed reading the Sun, and I must say I really did enjoy it. I thought the story read almost like poetic verse. I loved the discription of Juliet's love affair with the sun and the errotic emagery that Lawrence used in the way in which the sun caressed her and penetrated her, embraring her within its warmth and the way she was cast almost as some nymph, frolicking naked under the light of the sun.

Hi Dark Muse, so good to see you here and glad you enjoyed the story. I think everyone who read it liked it very much. It is hard to dislike a story about something as bright and beautiful as the sun. Yes, some others in the thread also thought it read like a long prose poem. I fully agree; it flows so easily and beautifully, with uncomplicated words which put together makeup some lovely poetic prose, with a deeper meaning/symbolism and great 'errotic imagery' - good observation, on your part, and good way of expressing that. I had not thought of the 'nymph' idea, but it certainly could be another thing to consider.

One of the things I really enjoyed about the story, was the way Juilet's relationship to her son was portrayed particuarly towrd the beginning.

Yes, and I think this aspect of the story very worthwhile to review and look at. For one things she has a full 'transformation' about the child, as well as herself. In fact, by the end of the story, she is considering having an affair with the peasant man, just to concieve a child. Strange, when in the beginning of the tale, she could hardly even look at, touch or warm up to her young child.

"The child irritated her, and preyed on her peace of mind. She felt so horribly, ghastly responsible for him: as if she must be responsible for every breath he drew. And that was torture to her, to the child, and to everyone else concerned."

That struck me as very real, I could see, how having a child paricuarly if it is a first child could make a woman feel repressed in a way and as if some of her own freedom and independnce is taken away becasue she has to put so much of herself in the care for this other being.

I think this is realistic and your expressed it very well. Often too, women do suffer true depression, after the birth of a baby. I seems that somewhere the husband eludes to this fact or mentions it to have been the case with Juliet.

That is one of the thing I really like about Lawrence the way he likes to expose these seceret parts of the mind and bring them to light and to the surface, though and emotions that most people keep locked away and hidden deep within, he seems to understand so well.

Yes, I fully agree with your assessment. Lawrence delves far below the surface, and shows what is going on beneath, with 'though and emotions', and also 'subconsious' realms of the mind.

[Dark Muse]

I thought the ending was kind of bittersweet in a way. To a degree Juilet seems to have found a certain peace of mind and contement in the freedom she has found, and yet still she finds herself trapped there, when she is desparing about her dreams of having the affair but instead she will bare another child by Maurice.

It almost makes you wonder, if perhaps the fact that it was Maurice's child the first time, led to her feelings about it in the beginning. For she began to wam up to the child more it seemd when the child began to embrace the sun as she had and become more like her.

One of the things if found intresting was the way in which Maurice seemed at first so timid and awakard around her when he came to visit, almost as if he was afried of her wildness. It was as if her will and perosnality overwelmed him. And I love the way he was descirbed as being all in gray alongside her sun kissed and raidant body, casing him almost as her shadow. Something of which she has to drag along with her, and will never be completely free of.

It is kind of ironic the way Juilet talks of Maurice:

Sometimes he glanced at her frutively, from under his black lashes. He had the gold-gray eyes of an animal that has been caught young, and reared compeltely in captivity"

In a way I think the same could be applied to her, she is like an animal that has been kept in the bond of captivity and yet still yearns for that feralness.

[Virgil]

Wow, such great participation.

I thought that whole entry was really interesting from several standpoints. Interesting that the story had several versions, and what Lawrence said about it, being too long.
Yes, you are correct, Virgil, in assuming Lawrence was back in Italy, for convalesent purposes, no doubt. I think after leaving Mexico and New Mexico (he was then diagnosed positively with the TB) he came back to Italy to seek a more restorative environment, in hopes of reviving and recovering his health. This entry above was 1925, so that he lived another 5 yrs and in that time he wrote a number of notable things such as "The Escaped **** (The Man Who Died) and LCL and then the Travel novels. God knows what else - tons of stuff in those 5 yrs. Amazing...and you thought him near death when writing this story....not quite; L was not going to give in to his illness. One his 40th birthday he wrote this entry:

I think now we have the context under which the story was written down pat. We can see how this reflects his personal life, though I still maintain that doesn't really mean that much.

Hmmm, very suggestive of the male sexual organ/the woman as the 'body of the rocks'. Snakes are usually phallic symbols; I am sure that L was well aware of this fact.

I can buy into this, but still it doesn't seem complete does it?

This part suggests the 'interconnectability' of all things in nature, cosmos; so that lead me to think and compare passages of the 'sun' and of the 'snake' and I can see similarities in each passage, can you see them? Also, Lawrence uses here the word 'like a charm'....suggesting strongly snake charmers or myticism in my mind. snakes as symbols in various 'sun' worshipping cultures.

I like the interconnectivity of things. Let go back and see.

Well, that is to be debated, probably more so when we read the novel LCL. I would say for now that is a hard question to definitively answer. Is she really giving over to Mellors or is she freeing herself and meeting him in the middle. I ...?

Well, we can leave that discussion for the spring.

[Virgil]

I will tempt to link the serpent question-which has attracted my attention, and has greatly confused me, as well- with the following beautiful description of Lawrence, which depicts the influence of Nature, once again.

[QUOTE:
“And though the Atlantic was grey as lava, she did come at last into the sun. Even she had a house above the pluest if seas, with a vast garden, or vineyard, all vines and olives steeply, terrace after terrace, to the strip of coast- plain; and the garden full of secret places, deep groves of lemon far down in the cleft of the earth, and hidden, pure green reservoirs of water; then a spring issuing out of a little cavern, where the old Sicules had drunk before the Greeks came; and a grey goat bloating, stabled in a ancient tomb, with all the niches empty. There was the scent of mimosa and beyond the snow of the volcano” QUOTE]

I think that this is a description of an Eden- like place, and the garden has a certain connotation, as a symbol of the unknown, if you like, something mysterious. I would venture to say that it can be another image for the temptation of escaping the present life.

The repetition of “lava”, and “volcano”, is significant too, in my opinion. I have read that volcano often stands as a symbol for the hidden female nature, at least, in poetry, especially in poems by Elizabeth Bishop and Louise Bogan, but there is a possibility that this symbolism is eligible in our story, as well. You know, just as an idea.

Yes, to me the snake suggests the garden of eden and the paradise Juliet is in. Not sure about vulcanos though. I always thought they might be a phallic symbol.

[Janine]

Yes, to me the snake suggests the garden of eden and the paradise Juliet is in. Not sure about vulcanos though. I always thought they might be a phallic symbol.

Hahaha, volcanos, not 'vulcanos' and it depends on which direction you are looking at them, from the summit or the base.

Hey, Virgil, can you give me some feedback on my previous post about connecting the serpent and the sun - it was in answer to you post questions. It is about 3 or 4 back now (on previous page). Thanks!


Oh sorry, I see you did answer some of it....I did a lot of typing and preparation - real mind boggling thought - my brain even hurts from thinking so hard for that post . I thought I had some good ideas, but I guess not, unless you skimmed.... It is post #570

[Virgil]

amalia, smart thinking - this is really good, I had not thought of that exactly in this way, but Virgil did mention before, that this story is a revisiting of an ancient time and world; and your idea is perfect, too. There is a lot going on here, in this one paragraph, don't you agree? It certainly does seem to indicate a sort of paradise and 'Eden' for Juliet, and from what I have read after "Plumed Serpent" Lawrence went back to Italy and turned futher away from the Indian myths, he had explored in that book, and went more in the direction of exploring Christinanity, but not in a 'conventional' way as well know, by reading the book "The Man Who Died". Interesting also to note that in his Italian Travel books, the first book, "Twilight in Italy", Lawrence goes on a long hike/kind of quest into the mountains and observes crossed and shrines enroute and ponders on these. His vision of this road is quite extraordinary. So what I am trying to say, is that at this period in L's writing, I think it totally conceivable, that he is thinking in terms of Eden and Biblical references. Didn't the serpent tempt Eve? I would think this something to think about in reference to the story, as well. At the end the woman, Juliet, is tempted to have an affair with the peasant. This all seems curious to me - the connections.

You have to be careful Janine. He was in Italy before he went around the world and ultimately New Mexico and now here he is returning to Italy. There are several Italy travel books: Twilight in Italy and Other Essays (1916), Sea and Sardinia (1921), Sketches of Etruscan Places and other Italian essays (1932). I'm not sure which one you are referring to.

In the passage you quoted the imagery is lovely and 'idllyic' and very much rooted in the old world, or the Bible, and it's naturalic qualities. I like the reference to "the garden full of secret places". I think this is a direct analogy to a woman's body, since Lawrence used this phrase often in his poetry and in "Lady Chatterly's Lover", etc. Perhaps the woman, Juliet, personifies or embodies the whole idea of the Garden of Eden. She has not only undergone a 'tranformation/transfiguration', but moved back into a time of complete beauty and paradise, and purity. Also, if Lawrence is embodying the Garden of Eden in Juliet, then I would think he is saying that sexuality is totally natural and goes back to day #1 on the earth. This would support all his naturistic ideals. Probably there are direct references in Genesis to that paragraph and each element - like the blue sea, the lemons, reservoirs of water, etc.

That is an interesting idea you two have come up with. The snake posing a danger can be seen as the male intruding into their woman's world. But the snake is essentially powerless here. Juliet does have him under control. Interesting. But how does the snake fit with the sun diety theme?

[Janine]

You have to be careful Janine. He was in Italy before he went around the world and ultimately New Mexico and now here he is returning to Italy. There are several Italy travel books: Twilight in Italy and Other Essays (1916), Sea and Sardinia (1921), Sketches of Etruscan Places and other Italian essays (1932). I'm not sure which one you are referring to.

Opps, to my eternal shame - you are correct. I am sorry for posting that wrong. Am I forgiven? Anyway, he did write other travel books or sketches, but not those first two; however, "Etruscan Places" was written after the short story "Sun". That would make sense wouldn't it? I had thought he visited them not much before he died; in fact, he died in 1930 so they published those posthumously, right? Gee, this book is fascinating with the timetable in it. I started to read it, here and there, and now I want to read the entire thing. Thanks for the suggestion, V. This is a great source book.

That is an interesting idea you two have come up with. The snake posing a danger can be seen as the male intruding into their woman's world. But the snake is essentially powerless here. Juliet does have him under control. Interesting. But how does the snake fit with the sun diety theme?

Virgil, I am kind of getting annoyed with you now, yes... seriously You are not the only one who can be BM&D... just because you are Italian, you know!

Did you only 'skim' my very involved post about this subject of the snake and the deity idea?
It is post #570 on the previous page, and I think it got buried by now. I was trying to express the various ways serpents were used to symbolise deities. The yellow snake and the way it absorbs the sun suggests to me the connection. I quoted a number of passages there (which I hand-typed in). In "The Plumed Serpent", which he wrote just prior to "Sun" he uses the symbol in conjuction with plumed or a bird-like creature and these combine to represent the deity - don't you recall the men wearing the Serpent symbol? I think it was on their head or a band around their forhead. It was so prominent in that book. The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos. In that book it is true that the 'morning star' and the 'evening star' were most prominent, but the sun also played a huge role in the story. In one scene Cipriano goes into the water and is lighted up by the sun and appears to Kate as a column of fire. Also, in the book is interwoven the whole idea of sexuality/sensuality, as is prominent, in this story "Sun".

If you read the entire poem of "Snake" there are a few stanzas, that indicate that the snake entering a crack in the stone wall, actually frightens the author. I kept thinking that sexually, Lawrence had this strange fear of being swallowed up by the female. This probably originated with his mother. I may be why predominently in his works the male dominates. I have read various theories on this idea, so I think it possible. In this story, the woman is not in fear of the man, but is the man in fear of the woman? The snake is powerless by choice, and perhaps, so is the husband. Also, he has not had the benefits yet of the sun. Who knows - maybe he will become sensual, when softened by the mystical sun and lose his fears. In his present state he can only glance at his naked wife. Is he showing shyness or fear?

[Virgil]

Opps, to my eternal shame - you are correct. I am sorry for posting that wrong. Am I forgiven? Anyway, he did write other travel books or sketches, but not those first two; however, "Etruscan Places" was written after the short story "Sun". That would make sense wouldn't it? I had thought he visited them not much before he died; in fact, he died in 1930 so they published those posthumously, right? Gee, this book is fascinating with the timetable in it. I started to read it, here and there, and now I want to read the entire thing. Thanks for the suggestion, V. This is a great source book.

You're forgiven. It does look like the Etruscan essays came out as a book after he died, but they may have individually been published in magazines. I bet you calandar of days book would say.

Virgil, I am kind of getting annoyed with you now, yes... seriously You are not the only one who can be BM&D... just because you are Italian, you know!

Did you only 'skim' my very involved post about this subject of the snake and the deity idea?
It is post #570 on the previous page, and I think it got buried by now. I was trying to express the various ways serpents were used to symbolise deities. The yellow snake and the way it absorbs the sun suggests to me the connection. I quoted a number of passages there (which I hand-typed in). In "The Plumed Serpent", which he wrote just prior to "Sun" he uses the symbol in conjuction with plumed or a bird-like creature and these combine to represent the deity - don't you recall the men wearing the Serpent symbol? I think it was on their head or a band around their forhead. It was so prominent in that book. The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos. In that book it is true that the 'morning star' and the 'evening star' were most prominent, but the sun also played a huge role in the story. In one scene Cipriano goes into the water and is lighted up by the sun and appears to Kate as a column of fire. Also, in the book is interwoven the whole idea of sexuality/sensuality, as is prominent, in this story "Sun".

Oh you are angry at me too. Well, get on line. I bet half of lit net is angry at me. It goes with being Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. I did read you post #570 and i even replied to it. I didn't exactly reply to that specific part of your post directly, I combined Amalia's and your thoughts together. Didn't i say it was an interesting idea you two have come up with? Let me double highlight what you just said that I think is very important:

The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos.

The power of the sun is interwoven with the overall power of the cosmos, which is a sort of godhead for life.

If you read the entire poem of "Snake" there are a few stanzas, that indicate that the snake entering a crack in the stone wall, actually frightens the author. I kept thinking that sexually, Lawrence had this strange fear of being swallowed up by the female. This probably originated with his mother. I may be why predominently in his works the male dominates. I have read various theories on this idea, so I think it possible. In this story, the woman is not in fear of the man, but is the man in fear of the woman? The snake is powerless by choice, and perhaps, so is the husband. Also, he has not had the benefits yet of the sun. Who knows - maybe he will become sensual, when softened by the mystical sun and lose his fears. In his present state he can only glance at his naked wife. Is he showing shyness or fear?

Now that is interesting. Yes, the snake could represent the husband! I think you're right. I will have to re-read the story to be sure. And by the way, the poem "Snake" does compliment this story. I had my doubts when you brought it up, but now that I've read the entire poem, I see the connections.

[Janine]

You're forgiven. It does look like the Etruscan essays came out as a book after he died, but they may have individually been published in magazines. I bet you calandar of days book would say.

Glad of that....now will you forgive me for getting annoyed (angry) with you? You know I could never be angry too long.

Virgil, you sure have me doing a lot of homework You and Quark advise me to slow up; and I am the one looking up all this stuff and...
now Quark wants me to state 'specific chapters' in S&L's and here I thought he had those bits pretty well highlighted in his book!
Grrr...Eekkk...ok, going now to look up the Etruscan essays - it might also say in my Italian tavel book 'forward'.
Ok, looking them up seems to reveal that he was visiting the tombs, as far back as 1927, then he mentions being half-way through writing the essays sometime in 1929, but from there I don't see an entry as to when he completed "Etruscan Places". I also just looked in the forward to "L.H.Lawrence and Italy", and I can't see anywhere, that it actually states anything about that, but it shows copyright for that one book to be 1932 and L died in the early part of the year of 1930, so I would assume it.

Oh you are angry at me too. Well, get on line. I bet half of lit net is angry at me. It goes with being Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. I did read you post #570 and i even replied to it. I didn't exactly reply to that specific part of your post directly, I combined Amalia's and your thoughts together. Didn't i say it was an interesting idea you two have come up with? Let me double highlight what you just said that I think is very important:

The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos.

Yep, I was mildly perturbed, not really angry. In fact I went back and changed my original 'flaring red mad' emoticon to something a little more subtle.. Yes, it was inevitable, that someday, I too, would join the club and be annoyed with you!

Well, thanks for at least reading my post #570, and your comments were good ones. I still think you might have missed a little there, like the symbol of the serpent used as a deity or divinity, and it was usually 'golden' like the sun or the stars, which are 'burning' gases as the sun is. Serpent symbolism was actually used in "Plumed Serpent", most prominently, and I had also, thought how so many ancient civilizations used this as a symbol of power and royalty - such as with King Tut - his famous gold mask has a gold serpent at the top - a cobra, I believe.

The power of the sun is interwoven with the overall power of the cosmos, which is a sort of godhead for life.

Yes, and somehow this all fits in, within Lawrence's mind and ideas - the serpent or snake. I know it is all quite complex. The PS book was confusing in this respect, but now after reading some of these snake references in "Sun" I feel I see more clearly what Lawrence was aiming at in the other book and this story. I think the serpent does represent a man in all his power and sexuality, which Lawrence beleive ultimately came from the cosmos and the sun. Therefore the male was the 'sun-god' or 'god-head'. In this story is not the sun male for Juliet? The sun is the supreme male is virility and power and sensuality to Juliet.

Now that is interesting. Yes, the snake could represent the husband! I think you're right. I will have to re-read the story to be sure. And by the way, the poem "Snake" does compliment this story. I had my doubts when you brought it up, but now that I've read the entire poem, I see the connections.

Yes, if one reads the entire poem (should I post it?) you can see exactly what Lawrence is getting at. Great poem, is it not? I will look it up online, but in my book seems to be a fuller length version of the poem. Years ago a friend sent me this poem and I believe that was a much shorter version. I hope I can find the entire verison online. Otherwise it is back to the old scanner or typing it in...ugh. I will also look up the date 'Snake' was published. Found the poem and I will post later - after you answer this post, or someone else does. It was written in Taormina, 1923. Not sure of date of publication, because this is the date giving on the internet below the poem, so I now assume this is the publication date -1923. Confusing though because he, lawrence states he has written, or is writing it in July 1920 - he is in Taormina and the book states that it is the only July Lawrence ever spend there, due to the excessive heat. He even states in this entry that he has been wearing for days, only pajama pants, because it is so hot. Interesting. I read that Balzac only wore a robe to write and Mark Twain liked to write in his jammies in bed. Gee, I guess I am a really creative person and not a bum! Haha ....I thought I was just abnormal, but guess I have that artist temperment.

[amalia1985]

The power of the sun influences Juliet in many, many ways as you have excellently described.

I would also suggest that although her feelings were "anger", "frustration", "numb", now we see a different woman under the inlfuence of the sun. The "sunrising" described can be seen as a metaphor fro Juliet's rebirth, and her attempts to persuade her son to "play", and "run in the sun", is, again, a proof of how much this male deity has changed her life. She wants her boy to experience the freedom she has experienced.

[Virgil]

Oh, look at Wiki's entry on Taormina. it gives a nice description with some photos of the area, which is what I think Lawrence is basing his story on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taormina.

Glad of that....now will you forgive me for getting annoyed (angry) with you? You know I could never be angry too long.

You're such a sweet person Janine.

Virgil, you sure have me doing a lot of homework You and Quark advise me to slow up; and I am the one looking up all this stuff and...
now Quark wants me to state 'specific chapters' in S&L's and here I thought he had those bits pretty well highlighted in his book!
Grrr...Eekkk...ok, going now to look up the Etruscan essays - it might also say in my Italian tavel book 'forward'.
Ok, looking them up seems to reveal that he was visiting the tombs, as far back as 1927, then he mentions being half-way through writing the essays sometime in 1929, but from there I don't see an entry as to when he completed "Etruscan Places". I also just looked in the forward to "L.H.Lawrence and Italy", and I can't see anywhere, that it actually states anything about that, but it shows copyright for that one book to be 1932 and L died in the early part of the year of 1930, so I would assume it.

Thank you for doing all that work.

Well, thanks for at least reading my post #570, and your comments were good ones. I still think you might have missed a little there, like the symbol of the serpent used as a deity or divinity, and it was usually 'golden' like the sun or the stars, which are 'burning' gases as the sun is. Serpent symbolism was actually used in "Plumed Serpent", most prominently, and I had also, thought how so many ancient civilizations used this as a symbol of power and royalty - such as with King Tut - his famous gold mask has a gold serpent at the top - a cobra, I believe.

Yes, that is interesting. I'm sure Lawrence was aware of it.

Yes, and somehow this all fits in, within Lawrence's mind and ideas - the serpent or snake. I know it is all quite complex. The PS book was confusing in this respect, but now after reading some of these snake references in "Sun" I feel I see more clearly what Lawrence was aiming at in the other book and this story. I think the serpent does represent a man in all his power and sexuality, which Lawrence beleive ultimately came from the cosmos and the sun. Therefore the male was the 'sun-god' or 'god-head'. In this story is not the sun male for Juliet? The sun is the supreme male is virility and power and sensuality to Juliet.

Yes, I think the sun as diety is male to Juliet's female. And we see how Maurice falls so short of his male glory. And we see in the story that the snake slithers and hides and is somewhat impotent. Don't you think?

Yes, if one reads the entire poem (should I post it?) you can see exactly what Lawrence is getting at. Great poem, is it not? I will look it up online, but in my book seems to be a fuller length version of the poem. Years ago a friend sent me this poem and I believe that was a much shorter version. I hope I can find the entire verison online. Otherwise it is back to the old scanner or typing it in...ugh. I will also look up the date 'Snake' was published. Found the poem and I will post later - after you answer this post, or someone else does. It was written in Taormina, 1923. Not sure of date of publication, because this is the date giving on the internet below the poem, so I now assume this is the publication date -1923. Confusing though because he, lawrence states he has written, or is writing it in July 1920 - he is in Taormina and the book states that it is the only July Lawrence ever spend there, due to the excessive heat. He even states in this entry that he has been wearing for days, only pajama pants, because it is so hot. Interesting. I read that Balzac only wore a robe to write and Mark Twain liked to write in his jammies in bed. Gee, I guess I am a really creative person and not a bum! Haha ....I thought I was just abnormal, but guess I have that artist temperment.

I was thinking of posting it, but I'll let you. Good thing they wore jammies. Some men go to bed in their underwear, or less.