Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

In this case I am not going to make. May be I will reread it, but I don't think I can wait so long for reading it

That remind me I have to reread Don Quixote or at least read the few works on it I have. i am going to start with Méditations sur Don Quichotte by Ortega y Gasset. I have to read it last year when I was actually studying Don Quixote, but I didn't get to it

And I have heard you are planning to start a thread for The Aeneid. I would be glad to join in. I wanted to read it for a long time and I have even started it once, but i didn't menage to finish it. So it will be a perfect opportunity

Why there are so many books and so little time to read them. I have no idea how I am going to menage with all this reading when I have to read "War and Peace"

You are an incredibly prolific reader Alexei. I'm truely impressed. Sorry about LCL. But I do hope you are enjoying The Rainbow. It is my favorite lawrence novel. How far have you read?

Yes I hope to read and start a thread on The Aeneid as soon as i finish Don Quixote, probably around Christmas. It would be great if you could join too.

[Quark]

I could read another Lawrence story after this; but, really, have we finished with this one? I'd hate to run off and start another story before Janine even finishes the first one. I kind of wanted to talk about the ending, too.

[Janine]

I could read another Lawrence story after this; but, really, have we finished with this one? I'd hate to run off and start another story before Janine even finishes the first one. I kind of wanted to talk about the ending, too.

Hello Quark, yikes don't dessert me! You or anyone else! Since everyone has called me 'the leader' here in this thread - I am still keeping it 'open-ended' for any more discussions. I am sorry I have been so naughty and not kept up a faster pace on my reading. I have a few good questions and some parts to quote and talk about.

For one, I am interested in the part, when Paul takes his mother into the town, like a date would, and he treats her to dinner and they wander the town and he is alternately happy and then annoyed - mostly with his strange 'feelings' that he cannot seem to deal with, about her aging and slowing up. I thought the part, about him buying her the violets, and tucking them into her collar, particularly 'touching' and 'sweet' and wondered what everyone thought of the day and of the church scene, their interaction - mother and son. Also curious to know what all thought about the scene when his mother seems to look into the church with a presentiment of her coming death and eternal life, but Paul seems, in stark contrast to be the opposite - uncomfortable in the church and feeling totally out of place in this 'sacred holy' environment.

And Quark, I definitely do want to discuss the ending with you (and others, too, hopefully) in greater detail. Be patient - I just want to get there in the book, so that my memory of it is fresh. I will push my reading this week and try to get done, but I have been reading more concentratedly and absorbing much more, than I did the first time around.

I don't think we shall go onto another L book, presently. If you read back to the posts, you will see we have pretty much decided (by the majority) that we should wait till spring to discuss 'Lady Chatterly's Lover'.

Now, Quark, I know you have probably run out today to buy the book and that economy box of yellow highlighters (I suggested), --- but be patient and we will get to it sooner than you can wink. You might not be able to wait to read it, so read it now, if you care to - it is a faster read - and just review-read it in the spring. This way you will be way ahead of me and everyone else. Haha

[Virgil]

Quark, I saw your photo you posted in the photoalbum. You look pretty much how I pictured you. Kind of like me when I was your age.


Janine, have you seen Quark's picture in the photoalbum?

[Quark]

For one, I am interested in the part, when Paul takes his mother into the town, like a date would, and he treats her to dinner and they wander the town and he is alternately happy and then annoyed - mostly with his strange 'feelings' that he cannot seem to deal with, about her aging and slowing up. I thought the part, about him buying her the violets, and tucking them into her collar, particularly 'touching' and 'sweet' and wondered what everyone thought of the day and of the church scene, their interaction - mother and son. Also curious to know what all thought about the scene when his mother seems to look into the church with a presentiment of her coming death and eternal life, but Paul seems, in stark contrast to be the opposite - uncomfortable in the church and feeling totally out of place in this 'sacred holy' environment.

Yeah, Paul and his mother have a date night in town that is only sort of Oedipal. It is kind of cute the way they play back and forth, but what is most striking about this part is dependency that Paul shows for his mother. Mrs. Morel enjoys the evening as a nice social night out, but Paul places a strange importance on everything; and, as you pointed out, becomes enraged when things go wrong. More than anything else, his mother's frailty sets him off. He knows that his mother will die, and he has probably imagining a world without her. Also, he might be upset because his mother's age makes it impossible for them to be the close friends he wants them to be.

I don't remember the church scene so well, but I do know that Paul has a rather dubious relationship with Christianity. He probably would not feel comfortable standing in the presence of something he has so fervently rejected. It might also be that the church is reminding him of spirituality or immortality or something like that. These sort of thoughts might unnerve Paul as well--considering that he's ceded control of his soul over to his mother.

I will push my reading this week and try to get done,

Good, I thought I was going to have to call you up on the phone and read it to you.

This way you will be way ahead of me and everyone else. Haha

I don't think I'll ever be ahead of you guys in Lawrence reading.

Quark, I saw your photo you posted in the photoalbum. You look pretty much how I pictured you. Kind of like me when I was your age.


Janine, have you seen Quark's picture in the photoalbum?

Yes, I know I come off as tall and handsome in prose, too.

[Virgil]

Yes, I know I come off as tall and handsome in prose, too.

I'm sure you are.

[Janine]

Be forewarned: the following post has an over-abundance of emoticons!

Yeah, Paul and his mother have a date night in town that is only sort of Oedipal. It is kind of cute the way they play back and forth, but what is most striking about this part is dependency that Paul shows for his mother. Mrs. Morel enjoys the evening as a nice social night out, but Paul places a strange importance on everything; and, as you pointed out, becomes enraged when things go wrong. More than anything else, his mother's frailty sets him off. He knows that his mother will die, and he has probably imagining a world without her. Also, he might be upset because his mother's age makes it impossible for them to be the close friends he wants them to be.

I don't remember the church scene so well, but I do know that Paul has a rather dubious relationship with Christianity. He probably would not feel comfortable standing in the presence of something he has so fervently rejected. It might also be that the church is reminding him of spirituality or immortality or something like that. These sort of thoughts might unnerve Paul as well--considering that he's ceded control of his soul over to his mother.

Quark, oh yikes, it is almost 12:00 AM and I am back here again - just can't leave this place alone....and I am sure you noticed I was on here this afternoon as well. Do I ever sleep - Not much!

Thanks so much for your post answer - it is a good one. I like all the thought behind it. I think you covered much even thinking further on the church scene and how Paul would be reacting. I felt everything you said is about par with what I was thinking so I suppose this just supports my own ideas on it. Yes, I can see what you mean when you said that Paul places great significance on every little detail of the day, perhaps as a young man would having a first date....interesting. I will think more on the passages in this section but I have other sections I am interested in discussing so let me sleep/rest on these thoughts and I will think clearer tomorrow.

Good, I thought I was going to have to call you up on the phone and read it to you.

Now that is a thought - do you have a British accent, by any chance? I have a weakness for British accents. and.....I heard this through the grapevine......that you "come off as tall and handsome in prose".

Virgil, I am off now to go check out that photo of our beloved Quark. Does he look like a movie star??? Be right back with an assessment.

Back already!
Hey Quark, you are a real honey! Is that a driver's liscense picture ID? I was trying to read the writing on it. Anyway, seriously, great photo and I love your pretty eyes - brown or blue? They look blue with those sultry lush 'lascivious' lashes! (how do you like that alliteration and my prose on that last line?)
Hey, you remind me of Mellors in LCL - if you were to grow a beard, you would look like his twin (but not the BBC rendition, Sean Bean is blondish; more like L's description and another version, I once saw). Anyway, truly it is a very handsome photo and definitely you come off as 'tall and handsome in prose'.

I don't think I'll ever be ahead of you guys in Lawrence reading.

Well, Quark, if I keep reading these books twice or thrice to keep up with these threads, you just might catch up!

[grace86]

Oh you guys post too fast!!! Well I don't know...I guess we are reading LCL in Spring then? Grrrr...you guys!!!! That book has been sitting on my shelves for about a year and a half now. But maybe in that time I can read Sons and Lovers myself.

Janine I did not mean that S&L was better than WIL, I haven't even read it for crying out loud....I was just saying that S&L might have been a little more "laviscious" than WIL and might suit Quark's interest better...with all those highlighters and all.

Seriously I am almost finished with Quixote, but I guess I will wait to read LCL with you guys. I had planned on finishing Quixote so I then could move on to LCL since I have such a busy schedule and go at a slow pace...so if we did read it in December I would be caught up, but spring time will have to do

Hey...Janine you told me to read S&L in the summer anyway grrrrr...

[Janine]

grrrr....to you, Grace, too! Stop grinding your teeth! If you read "Sons and Lovers" first, that would be better; as I said work up to LCL....since it is a later work. You do want to be well-versed in Lawrence works, don't you? And you and I can still discuss it, and you can also go back and read the posts. There is more in here than a lot of craziness, you know. Some of the posts are truly insightful and helpful for a better understanding. Plus, I have lots of commentary on the book and I can steer you to that, if you request some more to read on the subject of S&L. I know you will like the book.
It is just that, if we all wait till spring to read LCL, we all can participate and that will make for a better discussion. If you don't all come back, you know I will pursue you and drag you all into the LCL's thread! haha

Time to kill the computer and head for bed! night all.....

[amalia1985]

I think I might have seen "Lady and the Gypsy", Janine. Is this the one with Ian McShane as the Gypsy? If it is that, indeed, you must watch it. I love Ian McShane, he is a wonderful actor. Have you seen "Wuthering Heights" with him as Heathcliff? Materpiece!!!
I have seen him on stage too, in London, and he was great...

[manolia]

Wow Janine you have read all these books on L!! You are ready for a thesis

I saw the chrysanthemums you posted. Beautiful!

Yes, and the more I read about her and her interaction with Paul it confuses me just what she wants or expects of him. Now I am just past the part where she brings Clara home and sets up the meeting with Clara and Paul. They all take a long walk in the fields and woodland. Why exactly is Miriam doing this? Does she really think that, if Paul goes off with Clara, he will eventually come back to her? I feel a bit confused at this point. I don't know how she would handle that, but I guess I don't recall this part of the book so well, and need to keep reading, till I see what transpires next. It just seems that she is setting up Paul, to fail with Clara, or to have this affair she can't have. Miriam does seem to be sexually repressed herself, like I said and you agreed upon.

You make a good point here. It really feels like it (Miriam setting up a meeting between Paul and Clara is like her trying to establish a "connection" between them so that Clara, who is an experienced woman in matters of sex may give Paul what she - Miriam- can't???).

I thought we were going to do Lady Chatterly in the late spring, around a year after Women In Love. I've already got plans for December: Finish Don Quixote and start The Aeneid.

Virgil, i thought the same thing..that we were going to read LCL sometime in spring..that is more convenient for me too since i have already decided which books to read till then (and i also want to participate in the December reading of the forum if "Master and Margarita" is selected).

In this case I am not going to make. May be I will reread it, but I don't think I can wait so long for reading it

Even if you can't wait, you can still participare in the conversation once the thread is started

Why there are so many books and so little time to read them. I have no idea how I am going to menage with all this reading when I have to read "War and Peace"

I am convinced that at least you Alexei will be able to read all the books you have in mind (you read A LOT and you are soooo fast)

[Janine]

amalia quote

I think I might have seen "Lady and the Gypsy", Janine. Is this the one with Ian McShane as the Gypsy? If it is that, indeed, you must watch it. I love Ian McShane, he is a wonderful actor. Have you seen "Wuthering Heights" with him as Heathcliff? Materpiece!!!
I have seen him on stage too, in London, and he was great...

amalia, I don't know if that was the actor. I must go back to Amazon and check. I have the film in my 'wish list' but I think I can only acquire a used copy of a VHS tape of it, otherwise it is Region 2 and my DVD is Region 1. I hate that they have these distinctions because I love to buy the British films and often they are only offered in Region 2 format.
How fortune to have seen the film and to have seen this actor live on a London Stage. I am truly jealous of you, amaila, being able to travel to London, how wonderful! I will have to check out that verion of "Wuthering Heights". Did you ever see the version of WH with a young (very young) Timothy Dalton! It is so good! He was also amazing in the BBC production of "Jane Eyre" - Lady Wentworth and I had a discussion on this and she saw his JE and said it was the best so far. It was pleasantly surprising just how good and intense that production is.
Well, anyway, I am going now to check out Ian McShane on Amazon. Thanks for the tip!
PS: I am trying to get to your email reply, but got busy last few days...sorry. So be patient and I will get to it soon. Gee, and if I keep posting posts like this long one I will never get to my poor emails - grrrr - that is Grace's grrr - works good!

manolia quote

Wow Janine you have read all these books on L!! You are ready for a thesis

Yes, well, all the ones I designated as reading and the ones with the * I read twice now. I tend to get obsessed with authors and actors I really like. I don't know what it is with L, but something there really spoke to me first time I read his work. Now the pursuit has taken off and it becomes a lifetime venture perhaps since there is a still much I wish to read about him and the works I did not read of his yet. If I had to write a thesis, truly, I could think of about a dozen aspects of L's work to use for a theme. However, manolia, even though I love your flattery (thanks so much), I am too tired out, at this juncture of my life, to take on another major project. Instead and in substitute, I am quite satisfied impressing all of your with my reading list. and seriously helping you all with your own pursuits of knowledge on Lawrence and his works; this last gives me great satisfaction and I think we all have fun in here too, don't you? Believe it or not, I read as many Thomas Hardy books as L, if not more, but only one small biography.

I should make a list of all the books I have read in my life. I tried that with movies, but I got behind in the list now; it takes precious time to make lists, too. Movies were in the thousands....I could not believe it. In 57 yrs one does tend to accumulate a lot of memorable stuff in the gray matter of one's brain. It is a wonder I remember what I have read actually, and I am finding, as I get older, I don't recall what I read. Like with S&L; from the beginning of the book, by the time I get to the end, or even between additional readings....grrrr (using Grace's famous 'grrrr...' ) I forget so much.
Like presently, I feel like I never read S&L's before, but I know I did a few years ago. I feel these passages are so 'fresh' to me. Does anyone else feel this way who is re-reading it?

Let me comment directly on the book here. I think some of the descriptive passages are so beautifully written - really exquisite. I just read about the cherry tree and harvesting the cherries and the way Paul climbed the tree and viewed the sunset all aglow. I was mesmerized with this poetic prose descriptions. I felt like I could visualise this scene perfectly. It was magnificent. Then there is the scene when Paul goes out into the garden at night and the lilies are blooming and filling the air with strong intoxicating odour - this scene is amazing. For among the white madonna lilies, he sees suddenly dark iris blooming, and then he picks a flower to take with him as he returns to the house and his discussion with his mother - I think it is pink. It all seems to be so significant. He is bursting inside with his manly feelings and desperately needing and wanting the freedom of something, of his sexual fulfillment and completeness. I have had this same feeling he is feeling, restlessly looking on my garden and seeing Stargazer lily blooms in the evening of summer, among other lilies and the scent absolutely fills the night and makes one feel drunk and overflowing with life and the 'life blood' and desire for something one cannot always grasp. So when I read this last passage I nearly wanted to weep, because I knew exactly how Paul felt here, with his keen artist's sensitivity to the natural world and it's absolute beauty. Sensitivity such as this is painful and yet elating, at the same time.

The more I read of this wonderful book, the more I feel it is like no other book I have ever read. It is so complex and intricate in feelings and innerworking of the various character's minds and souls and these are intertwined with the natural world. In this way this book can always be a fascination for me. I think I easily could read it, or passages from it, over again and again.

Now, I do agree with you whole-heartedly, Quark, in that the second half, of the book, is the most interesting and the best part. This tug of war and wills between Miriam and Paul, with all the little nuances and expressions and actions/reactions from each character is so well expressed and keeps one's interest every second of the book. And it is all so believable, as well...so realistic to me.

I saw the chrysanthemums you posted. Beautiful!

manolia, thank you, I thought everyone would enjoy a little splash of fall color there! It breaks up our academic look, don't you think?

You make a good point here. It really feels like it (Miriam setting up a meeting between Paul and Clara is like her trying to establish a "connection" between them so that Clara, who is an experienced woman in matters of sex may give Paul what she - Miriam- can't???).

Yes, I do see it this way, sort of taking pressure off of her, but I don't think it really makes her happy in the long-run, do you? I think she feels that he will get help/relief with his sexual tension and anxiety through Clara, but I don't know if Miriam really expected that they would actually have sexual relations. This is now unclear to me as I have progressed with the story. Miriam may have felt it was a possibility and then would accept it, but this too, would be part of her 'supreme sacrifice' to and for Paul; her goal, ulitmately, was to win Paul back to her. I believe she thought 'let him be worldly and then he will see it as frivolous and shallow and then he will value what I to offer him, which is the soul and the spiritual communion and relationship and closeness and compatibility. She feels this (their type relationship) is the only meaningful one. She is a very old-fashioned girl in that her mother has told her, referring even to married life and relations, in the following statement she makes, which Miriam now communicates to Paul:

"But all my life.' Mother said to me: 'There is one thing in marriage that is always dreadful, but you have to bear it.' And I believed it."
Then Paul says:
"And still believe it," he said.
"No!" she cried hastily. "I believe, as you do, that loving, even in thatway, is the high-water mark of living."

However, just after this Miriam abruptly brings up the idea of having Paul's children (procreation as the main goal of sex idea) so she never really acknowledges the value, even within a marriage, of sex as the expression and fulfillment of love between husband and wife. One can see where the difficulty lies. How confusing this must seem to a young man of 24!

Also, present in my mind when reading these passages between Paul and Miriam is the prominent thought that both he and she have been greatly altered or patterned by their mother's opinions and their advice on life. Now Miriam's mother seems to be the happier of the two women but if one reads between the lines it becomes believable that she would have said something like this to her daughter. She has 7 children but she this hardly means she enjoyed her sexual union with her husband. She seems to have given herself as a sort of sacrifice, as a woman, to her husband in order to bear him children. Her is where Lawrence crossed over and blantantly brought out all these thoughts to his public in this book and he says - hey this is not the way life should be but it is how people have been expected to think. In an earlier passage Paul surmisses that young men who are nice young men, as himself at his age, all went through this time of feeling sexually frustrated and hemmed in and struggling with celibacy:

He looked around. A good many of the nicest men he knew were like himself, bound in by their own virginity, which they could not break out of. They were so sensitive to their women that they would go without them forever rather than do them a hurt, an injustice. Being the sons of mothers whose husbands had blundered rather brutally through their feminine sanctities, they were themeselves too diffident and shy. They could easier deny themselves than incur any reproach from a woman; for a woman was like their mother, they were full of the sense of their mother. They preferred themselves to suffer the misery of celibacy, rather than risk the other person.

This passage speaks volumes! It seems to sum up the real problem between Miriam and Paul. Both are greatly influenced by their mothers. Thus, when he is making love to Miriam, it is like making love to his mother and deviling her in a psychological sense because Miriam takes on this role as if she were a sacrifice. I think in this way, one could site some shred of the Oedipus Complex in play, but more of the total logic of the fact that from an early age both the woman and the man, were taught values they can not break though, break away from....even though they may know them to be false in their innate natures.

manolia quote

Virgil, i thought the same thing..that we were going to read LCL sometime in spring..that is more convenient for me too since i have already decided which books to read till then (and i also want to participate in the December reading of the forum if "Master and Margarita" is selected).

manolia, Interesting - who wrote "Master and Margarita" - I have never heard of it. Also, glad you have such a list to accomplish before tackling another complex L book. Enjoy your new reading. Maybe you can participate in the short story thread, in the meantime, and that way keep your mind somewhat on L's works. I can just imagine your long reading list and you are half my age I think.
manolia quote

Even if you can't wait, you can still participare in the conversation once the thread is started

This is true.

manolia quote

I am convinced that at least you Alexei will be able to read all the books you have in mind (you read A LOT and you are soooo fast)

I agree with manolia on this one. alexei, you are amazing. When did you start reading - age 1? She must have read her alphabet soup or ABC cereal. When my son was small, he broke off pretzels and made letters out of them. I thought that was pretty clever.

[amalia1985]

Yes, Janine, I think that Timothy Dalton was very good in "Wuthering Heights", and in "Jane Eyre". "Master and Margarita" was written by Mikhail Bulgakov, it is an excellent book, extremely interesting, you must definitely read it, I ahve read it three times already since the day I bought it, and I am still surprised by the power of its messages and themes.

Also, I agree with you on the previous point you made about Miriam and Paul. We see it every day, and it is actually getting worse, because young people miss youth's point, and try to keep up with the roles that others have persuaded them to have. Thank God I've escaped that so far! Both young women and young men are equally oppressed, since they "have" to show that they are "true men" and "true women". If the hearing of those words is abominable, what does "True" mean, anyway? I think that societies, including all institutions, have a lot to answer about this.It's like those immature beings that start smoking to show off, smoking has, unfortunately, become a "value", and we all know it is deadly wrong, but young smokers are constantly increased, that's why I fully agree with your stating of the couple's problem.

PSo not worry about the e-mail, we have no pressure of time.

[Janine]

Yes, Janine, I think that Timothy Dalton was very good in "Wuthering Heights", and in "Jane Eyre". "Master and Margarita" was written by Mikhail Bulgakov, it is an excellent book, extremely interesting, you must definitely read it, I ahve read it three times already since the day I bought it, and I am still surprised by the power of its messages and themes.

amalia, thanks for answering my post so quickly. Wow, so you have seen the Timothy Dalton films as well. Funny story on first one. I found it quite by accident at a thriftstore - used tape - cheap. I did not even realise it was Dalton in the role...how funny. Then my sister and I watched it and the old tape would not stop having this annoying line pass over the screen - we kept watching hoping it would straighten out and it never did. Needless to say we watched because we both were mesmerized with Dalton's eyes (we still did not realise it was he, duh) and ofcourse got a headache from the annoying line flipping the screen. Ok, now I have found the film on DVD and had to have it. I think I threw the tape away.
I will put M &M on my 'to read eventually list' - that list is getting impossibly long. It must be great if you read it now 3 times! Thanks for the tips.

Also, I agree with you on the previous point you made about Miriam and Paul. We see it every day, and it is actually getting worse, because young people miss youth's point, and try to keep up with the roles that others have persuaded them to have. Thank God I've escaped that so far! Both young women and young men are equally oppressed, since they "have" to show that they are "true men" and "true women". If the hearing of those words is abominable, what does "True" mean, anyway? I think that societies, including all institutions, have a lot to answer about this.It's like those immature beings that start smoking to show off, smoking has, unfortunately, become a "value", and we all know it is deadly wrong, but young smokers are constantly increased, that's why I fully agree with your stating of the couple's problem.

Himm....this is quite interesting - what you say here. I had not thought of this carrying over into today's society exactly and into other themes of represssion or being applied to the idea of feeling pressured to go along with the crowd or what appears to be the norm. This may be why I love Lawrence's work so very much. It is timeless. It askes a lot of questions about 'what is normal' and 'what is natural' to man's existence. I think many of the feelings do occur still in our societies with young people and even people unsatisfied with their lives who are older now. People still marry poorly and feel trapped, some divorce and still feel financially trapped, others avoid marriage all together out of fear, parents still exert too much control over children and attempt to control their adult lives, as well as their childhood ones; what is ingrained still casts a shadow over some. Some are lucky and they have been given right and good information and fair well, others don't. I have seen this first hand and experienced it in my own family. Domestic violence or tension still exists, not knowing how to cope/learning how to cope are basic themes of mankind. Finding ones true self is still such a vital part of life and takes concentration and work, and so many just don't attempt it and drift along with the crowd, not really having any true direction or goals or purpose in life.
So these themes are not just post- or Victorian themes. They still do exist! You are quite right. I don't advocate totally 'free love' or 'free sex', but some people, no doubt, still think in the old way and many a woman suffers from thinking a man will save them someday, when her 'knight in shining armour charges in on his white horse for the rescue' - from heaven knows what - poverty, self awareness, honor...I don't know. Hollywood only glorifies these notions and romance novels. I am not knocking Jane Austen, but doesn't nearly everyone of her books end with a wedding? A friend pointed this out to me recently. No wonder there is a great revival of her works. I am not knocking weddings either, but some girls marry because they are 'in love' with the whole 'wedding/marriage' idea and not the real thing - the important element -the sincere mature love ideal with a real person. In one part of S&L, Paul pointed out that his relationship was so fine with Miriam and elevated and yet he could not envision the everyday things in life with her and sharing, in this way. I have said this countless times to young people - you can't keep living in a fairy-tale world. You are thinking too romantically. We all are guilty of this and we all like that wonderful happy ending, like in movies; but life is beyond that 'simplistic' concept and it is 'real' and when we choose a mate it is work. Ask Virgil; he speaks of this from time to time, that it takes 'work'; he always supports this idea and advocates marriage. So I think that Paul realised that, even though he was so sensitively close to Miriam and in many ways, so compatible and 'similiar' they could not effectively or practically share their life together. It just would never have worked. They would have burned each other out emotionally and eventually, since one cannot live on that exalted plane and maintain it for a lifetime. It is a place like heaven or like in the fantasy of a cloud and clouds are made of moisture and their support is a false one - all vapour and water suspended. So to use that analogy, I would say that by breaking with Miriam, Paul was ultimately doing the right thing. It was the thing he knew to be right for his own life and probably for hers, as well. It takes great courage on Paul's part to break with her. It may seem unfair and mean to Miriam, but in the long-run it had to be and was fated to be this way, and probably was the best course for her, as well.

Yes, and quite right about cigarettes - and they do kill - thousands every year, or is it millions? Someone, was it you(?), recently said to me in email they should shoot the manufacturers; but quite right - kids still feel peer pressure to be 'cool' and to smoke, in spite of all the warnings. Sad.

PSo not worry about the e-mail, we have no pressure of time.

Oh good, thanks A, for being so understanding and patient; but I am dying to get to it, of course. I have spend all my computer time and brain energy up in posts today.

PS: I looked up the 'Virgin and the Gypsy' and the one I saw in Amazon - the only one I can find - screenplay by Alan Platter; from 1970. I went then to the Movie Data Base site and read a very fine review on it. It is available on DVD - all region - on Amazon, so when it gets cheaper, I may spring for it. It looks like a good adaptation. I can't seem to find the one you speak of, but next I will search under the actor's name and maybe something will surface.

[Quark]

You make a good point here. It really feels like it (Miriam setting up a meeting between Paul and Clara is like her trying to establish a "connection" between them so that Clara, who is an experienced woman in matters of sex may give Paul what she - Miriam- can't???).

Yes, I do see it this way, sort of taking pressure off of her, but I don't think it really makes her happy in the long-run, do you? I think she feels that he will get help/relief with his sexual tension and anxiety through Clara, but I don't know if Miriam really expected that they would actually have sexual relations. This is now unclear to me as I have progressed with the story. Miriam may have felt it was a possibility and then would accept it, but this too, would be part of her 'supreme sacrifice' to and for Paul; her goal, ulitmately, was to win Paul back to her. I believe she thought 'let him be worldly and then he will see it as frivolous and shallow and then he will value what I to offer him, which is the soul and the spiritual communion and relationship and closeness and compatibility.

Yes, Miriam does think that Paul will return to her after he has wild sex with Clara. And, to an extent, she's right. Paul rapidly losses interest in Clara, and he passes her off to her original husband. When Paul returns to Miriam it is with a somewhat diminished sexual urge. Underneath, though, remains all the problems that plagued their relationship in the first place. A list in which sexual frustration rated fairly low.

Let me comment directly on the book here. I think some of the descriptive passages are so beautifully written - really exquisite. I just read about the cherry tree and harvesting the cherries and the way Paul climbed the tree and viewed the sunset all aglow. I was mesmerized with this poetic prose descriptions. I felt like I could visualise this scene perfectly. It was magnificent. Then there is the scene when Paul goes out into the garden at night and the lilies are blooming and filling the air with strong intoxicating odour - this scene is amazing. For among the white madonna lilies, he sees suddenly dark iris blooming, and then he picks a flower to take with him as he returns to the house and his discussion with his mother - I think it is pink. It all seems to be so significant. He is bursting inside with his manly feelings and desperately needing and wanting the freedom of something, of his sexual fulfillment and completeness. I have had this same feeling he is feeling, restlessly looking on my garden and seeing Stargazer lily blooms in the evening of summer, among other lilies and the scent absolutely fills the night and makes one feel drunk and overflowing with life and the 'life blood' and desire for something one cannot always grasp. So when I read this last passage I nearly wanted to weep, because I knew exactly how Paul felt here, with his keen artist's sensitivity to the natural world and it's absolute beauty. Sensitivity such as this is painful and yet elating, at the same time.

The more I read of this wonderful book, the more I feel it is like no other book I have ever read. It is so complex and intricate in feelings and innerworking of the various character's minds and souls and these are intertwined with the natural world. In this way this book can always be a fascination for me. I think I easily could read it, or passages from it, over again and again.

Now, I do agree with you whole-heartedly, Quark, in that the second half, of the book, is the most interesting and the best part. This tug of war and wills between Miriam and Paul, with all the little nuances and expressions and actions/reactions from each character is so well expressed and keeps one's interest every second of the book. And it is all so believable, as well...so realistic to me.

The second half is by far my favorite part. The first half is charming in its own way. I like the part where Mr. Morel storms out of the house but doesn't even make it to mailbox before he turns around. The problem with the first part has something to do with it's style. It reads like a work of dry realism, and Lawrence meets realism with only moderate success. He's far better with the more emotionally charged language he uses in the second half of the novel. The scene that Janine refers to is a perfect example. Now, being male, some people have a hard time believing that I, rugged manly figure that I am, would like emotional renderings of landscapes; but, actually, I do--that is, if they are well done. And, it's not just that the writing is moving or beautiful. It has more to do with the fact that it fits and improves the story. The writing isn't just meant to be sentimental; it's meant to express the characterization, conflict, and themes that guide the story. The second half does this far better than the first. Also, the characters are better. The portrait of Miriam in this story is very good.

She feels this (their type relationship) is the only meaningful one. She is a very old-fashioned girl in that her mother has told her, referring even to married life and relations, in the following statement she makes, which Miriam now communicates to Paul:

However, just after this Miriam abruptly brings up the idea of having Paul's children (procreation as the main goal of sex idea) so she never really acknowledges the value, even within a marriage, of sex as the expression and fulfillment of love between husband and wife. One can see where the difficulty lies. How confusing this must seem to a young man of 24!

Also, present in my mind when reading these passages between Paul and Miriam is the prominent thought that both he and she have been greatly altered or patterned by their mother's opinions and their advice on life. Now Miriam's mother seems to be the happier of the two women but if one reads between the lines it becomes believable that she would have said something like this to her daughter. She has 7 children but she this hardly means she enjoyed her sexual union with her husband. She seems to have given herself as a sort of sacrifice, as a woman, to her husband in order to bear him children. Her is where Lawrence crossed over and blantantly brought out all these thoughts to his public in this book and he says - hey this is not the way life should be but it is how people have been expected to think. In an earlier passage Paul surmisses that young men who are nice young men, as himself at his age, all went through this time of feeling sexually frustrated and hemmed in and struggling with celibacy:

This passage speaks volumes! It seems to sum up the real problem between Miriam and Paul. Both are greatly influenced by their mothers. Thus, when he is making love to Miriam, it is like making love to his mother and deviling her in a psychological sense because Miriam takes on this role as if she were a sacrifice. I think in this way, one could site some shred of the Oedipus Complex in play, but more of the total logic of the fact that from an early age both the woman and the man, were taught values they can not break though, break away from....even though they may know them to be false in their innate natures.

This is pretty good Janine. I hadn't thought about Miriam's mother's role in the Paul-Miriam relationship. I think your quotes are quite revealing. I had always thought that Miriam's prudishness was a result of her pretentiousness. I thought that she scorned sex as something low, and Miriam hates everything low because of her defensiveness about her social situation: a rural woman who is picked on by some of her family. I had never thought of the mother as such an influence, but it would make sense. If this is true, then you're right Paul and Miriam's sexual frustrations can be pinned on the older generation and possibly the greater society. Good thought, Janine