If god is everything, doesn't that make him evil as well as good?

[weepingforloman]

Perhaps some theological thought is necessary here. I feel that, due to the nature of the problem and my experience with certain theological viewpoints, I can produce a solution; however, I claim no real authority, and of course I expect disagreement.
According to Calvin (and this verse seems particularly Calvinist, no?), all instances of goodness are instances of grace. When a man does a good thing, it is because God causes him to do so. It therefore follows that, when a man (or devil) does a BAD thing, it is due to the absence of grace. Therefore, when evil occurs it is, in a sense, due to God's action, or rather, inaction. I hope I haven't just written a tangled mess of non-logic, I'm home sick today and might not be thinking clearly.

[RichardHresko]

Perhaps some theological thought is necessary here. I feel that, due to the nature of the problem and my experience with certain theological viewpoints, I can produce a solution; however, I claim no real authority, and of course I expect disagreement.
According to Calvin (and this verse seems particularly Calvinist, no?), all instances of goodness are instances of grace. When a man does a good thing, it is because God causes him to do so. It therefore follows that, when a man (or devil) does a BAD thing, it is due to the absence of grace. Therefore, when evil occurs it is, in a sense, due to God's action, or rather, inaction. I hope I haven't just written a tangled mess of non-logic, I'm home sick today and might not be thinking clearly.

I think that you are on the right track. However there seems to be a missing piece here: free will. Grace is bestowed by God to help man exercise his free will correctly (and thereby be truly free). However, the ultimate choice of doing good or evil is made by that free will, and not by God.

The second part of your post leads us to a very dark area for both Calvin and Augustine: predestination. The reasoning runs like this: Grace is a gift from God in his mercy, we don't deserve it. God chooses to bestow grace on only some people. Those who recive it have the power to have faith, do good things, etc. and be saved. This implies that God has predestined some to be damned. This remains implied in Augustine (as far as I know) and is explicit in Calvinism.

[Thinkerr]

On the issue of predestination. This is not a case of God condemning some people to be damned; it is a case of God knowing some people will be damned. There is a difference. People have free will in that they must choose between being saved or ignoring God and going to hell. No person cannot be saved. Everyone has a chance at salvation from hell. God only knows whether or not they will accept his grace. He does not remove the ability to escape his wrath, he knows some will not use that ability.

[Wintermute]

Hi Thinkerr,

"God only knows whether or not they will accept his grace. He does not remove the ability to escape his wrath, he knows some will not use that ability."

Does that really make sense to you? Are there in fact folks that have escaped his/her/its wrath? Is there a person that God knows is going to hell the day he or she is born, that doesn't actually go to hell? If this is the case, then he/she/it doesn't know everything. By saying "some will not use that ability", you are implying that some will, no? Curious how this doesn't bother folks of faith. I makes no sense at all to me.

[RichardHresko]

On the issue of predestination. This is not a case of God condemning some people to be damned; it is a case of God knowing some people will be damned. There is a difference. People have free will in that they must choose between being saved or ignoring God and going to hell. No person cannot be saved. Everyone has a chance at salvation from hell. God only knows whether or not they will accept his grace. He does not remove the ability to escape his wrath, he knows some will not use that ability.

I think the problem here is whether or not people have the CHOICE of being saved. That is not necessarily the case. While people have free will, they may not have the ABILITY to exercise that free will to gain salvation.

The issue of predestination is separable from God's omniscience. Predestination has to do with whether or not God does in fact withhold his grace from any individual. If he does, then that person will lack the ability to use his will to have faith and to choose a path leading to salvation.

[hellsapoppin]

``Clearly God is referring to natural events, and even within verse 7 he talks of creating light and darkness. ```

You need to look at the definition of the words used and you will find them in the link I provided. Nothing you have said shows any reference that would refute what appears in my link.

``people have free will``


Abortion victims do not have free will.

[mazHur]

I am flabbergasted to see that some friends are trying to justify evil by splitting up into categories! That sounds funny as Evil is Evil by whatever name you call it. And , it's simple to get at the meaning of ''all'',,,,,,,,All is All, absolute, full, total, complete,etc
if Evil and good could be divided into categories, i am afraid the proponents of hierarchy of evil would then insist on dividing God into more than a Unity!

[hellsapoppin]

The Bible tells us that god is ''omnipresent'' and ''omniscient'' . This means he is always present everywhere at every time. Moreover, it means he knows everything at all times under all circumstances. Therefore, he was present at the Fall in the Garden of Eden and he knew fully well that it would happen.

To say he is not responsible for evil is actually an attempt to limit his powers. But, since Christian adherents are not taught this essential truth, they assume as their teachers say, that god is not and cannot possibly be responsible for the Fall or for the existence of evil. Thus, they are inadvertently limiting their own god and this is what's actually blasphemous.

Don't know that this answers your question but I hope it gets you to consider what I have written.

[mazHur]

good question.
God is all ,,,He is the Lord of good and evil but evil is not done by him: it's the will the devil or men possess which does it.

[weepingforloman]

I think that you are on the right track. However there seems to be a missing piece here: free will. Grace is bestowed by God to help man exercise his free will correctly (and thereby be truly free). However, the ultimate choice of doing good or evil is made by that free will, and not by God.

The second part of your post leads us to a very dark area for both Calvin and Augustine: predestination. The reasoning runs like this: Grace is a gift from God in his mercy, we don't deserve it. God chooses to bestow grace on only some people. Those who recive it have the power to have faith, do good things, etc. and be saved. This implies that God has predestined some to be damned. This remains implied in Augustine (as far as I know) and is explicit in Calvinism.

I am aware, in fact, that is my point. God is sovereign: all things that happen happen because He allows them to. Ultimately, if you want to disparage predestination, you have to consider this question: did I do anything to earn salvation for myself? If you say that you chose to accept Christ of your own volition, then you have to ask, why? Is it because you are better than those who refuse to? I think the answer must emphatically be "no." If you deny God's predestination, you deny that He alone saves. If you deny Him His predestination, you deny Him the right to exercise both His mercy (in His special grace, by which He saves) or His justice (by choosing not to save some and issue just punishment).

On the issue of predestination. This is not a case of God condemning some people to be damned; it is a case of God knowing some people will be damned. There is a difference. People have free will in that they must choose between being saved or ignoring God and going to hell. No person cannot be saved. Everyone has a chance at salvation from hell. God only knows whether or not they will accept his grace. He does not remove the ability to escape his wrath, he knows some will not use that ability.

This is incorrect, at least if we would stay with Calvin. Others have suggested it, but he (in his Institutes of the Christian Religion) repeatedly denies it.

Yes, everyone does have a chance at salvation, but none would take it outside of God's good pleasure.

[hellsapoppin]

People on this forum have again succumbed to the mistaken ''Christian'' notion that predestination does not exist or is not divinely ordained. Obviously, it is because they have not read the Bible which clearly states that predestination is a fact --- one that CANNOT be overturned by human agency.

Romans 8:29, 30 reports:

For whom he did foreknow, he did also predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son ... moreover, whom he did call he also glorified.

See also Ephesian 1:5 which reads:

Having predestined us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.


As before, the problem is that Christians do not read nor understand what is in the Bible. Instead, they allow others to read and preach erroneous ''christian'' doctrine to them.

[mazHur]

Hmmm,,,,,,

I think fate or predestination is also a manifestation of God. If we are not governed by fate then why do things go wrong even when done properly or not even done? Why do we have to forget when the so-called strange or mysterious things happen to us ?

[Whifflingpin]

"the problem is that Christians do not read nor understand what is in the Bible. "

1 Corinthians 15 v22 et seq.
"For as in Adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive"

Not all at once, the following verses say, but finally there will be no death, so all will be alive.

If there is predestination, therefore, it is that all are predestined to be saved.

[mazHur]

it appears to be rather paradoxical. Why Jesus had to die on the cross if all were augured to live after his demise, and why gradually? I think we ought not to take these words literally but metaphorically
Why Jesus be blamed to carry sins of others on his shoulders? Atleast, I wouldn't like to be that selfish

[sandris]

Well thats a good question, but a lot simpler than it seems. God is good ! we all know that and evil is the absence of God. God isn't evil!!!