Sons and Lovers

[manolia]

I'm back I am having such a difficult week with work. Pheww!

Anyway, first i'd like to comment on the flower photos. Those were very nice Janine!

All of this is quite good and expands the idea. I know that theory has been around long before Dan Brown came out with his blockbuster/contraversial novel. It is the prior stuff I was more interested in. The novel is pretty corny and commercial. I do have better taste in literature than DB's work. But this added information really throws better light on the correlation between Mary Magdeline and Mirriam. You could probably say that Paul's mother better correlated to Mary, Christ's mother - in sacrificing her sons to the world. Just a thought....maybe way off with that one...just a thought.

You don't have to blush Janine. I have read two Dan Brown books and have enjoyed them! A fun and easy read, nothing more nothing less . And of course you have better taste in literature (or else you wouldn't be called the "tour guide" for no reason ).

At least Lawrence seems to think that is true and maybe it is. I don't know for fact. (....) It is strange now that in his earlier novel "Sons and Lovers" Miriam is the one with the mysterious dark eyes. It almost indicates to me that she had the potential represent the blood theory or the deep sexual mysteries and yet she is not the one to do so for Paul, instead it is Clara he finds sexual furfillment with but not entirely. I don't know if that last statement of mine makes sense. It just seems strange now that Miriam has the dark mysterious eyes but these now seem indicative of religious/mystical mysteries. Paul's eyes are described as being blue - correct? I think L often mention's Mrs. Morel's eyes as also being a clear blue.

Hmmm...i think you got that right too..Miriam seems to have that repressed sexuality, doesn't she?

I am thinking on the scene when he fixes the bicycle tire and she admires his skill and wants to run her hands down his sides. Then finally, she does, but that is as far as it goes - she pulls back away from him again. This must have been confusing and lonely for Paul; confusing for her, too. I can see why he is angry much of the time with her or annoyed with her. Am I wrong? If I am please correct me. I don't have to be the 'tour quide' or 'the leader' - just another lowly participant in this thread struggling along with my thoughts, just like all of you. I am only half way through the book, and all of you are probably done reading, correct? What a 'slow-poke' I have been on this one. But I am enjoying my second reading very much, more than the first time. I think I may have to read it a third time....well, someday.

Yes she does exactly that. Nice scene the one you mention

The volume that contains "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is a 2004 Wordsworth Limited Edition, with introduction and notes by Pr. Jeff Wallace of the University of Glamorgan.

It also contains the following stories:"Love among the Haystacks", "The Lovely Lady", "Rawdon's Roof", "The Rocking- Horse Winner", "The Man Who Loved Islands", and "The Man Who Died".

Amalia we buy the same editions..i bet you have at least two shelves full of blue books .

[amalia1985]

Yes, you are right!!!!!
Hahaha!

Janine, help!!!!! My e-mails to you are returned as spams!!!! I am at a loss, I cannot communicate with you!!

[Janine]

Yes, you are right!!!!!
Hahaha!

Janine, help!!!!! My e-mails to you are returned as spams!!!! I am at a loss, I cannot communicate with you!!

Amalia, don't panic! I am still here....I am not going anywhere that I know of. I am sure we can get your email straightened out. I just sent you a PM and an email since 3 of yours did get to my regular box - see. You must have hit the wrong button before or maybe it was just a temporary gliche...it is spooky day here - Halloweeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnn. Boooooooooo....
See if you got my emails just now ok, then let me know.......must be a Halloween 'ghost in the machine'.
J

[Janine]

manolia, I will answer your answers to my post tomorrow. It got late now with Halloween and all. I got busy and then wrote a long email, too.

Wonder what happened to amalia. I hope she did not lose her computer or service. She seemed to be having trouble today with her email.

[Quark]

I'm back, briefly, to say that I'll come back later and post. Hopefully, I can get some time tomorrow. I didn't mean to make a point and then disappear.

[Janine]

Quark, no problem. I have not even finished my (second) reading of the book. I am taking my time to absorb more this time around and understand it better.
Manolia said she would continue to post past the month and so did others - there is no deadline here which is better, don't you think. No pressure at all. I will be happy to hear what you have to add to the discussion. I have about 150 more pages to read. I am up to the part when Miriam has brought Clara to Paul and they all take a long walk out in the woods. I have some comments on this part but it got too late tonight and I will have to let it go for tomorrow or the next day.

[amalia1985]

I am here, everything is fixed!!!!

[Janine]

Oh, my God, so many Lawrence's novels and stories I haven't read yet!!!!!! I had an appetite now, I tell you!!I must find them all!!!!! I have read:

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
Women in Love (1920)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)
...and that's all...I must find them!!!

amalia, I am truly impressed with this reading list of yours - and at your age....wonderful! I think you have plenty of time to catch up and read more L. or all of L's works. I still have a few left to read but I am getting there. You should read a good biography - it really enriches the experience of reading his work. I don't agree with Virgil on this point - that you can separate the author from his work. I found reading about his life made it more meaningful for me in the long-run.

I am so glad you got your email and computer straightened out. I know someone else on Lit Net had a computer problem too and now hers is fine as well. Computer sure can be frustrating sometimes.
"We can't live with them and we can't live without them!"

Alexei, good to see you back. Hey, it is never too late. I am still finishing up the book - reading this time so very slowly and absorbing it all. I hope to comment soon but my neck is bothering me so long posts have been impossible presently.

Hi manolia, I am going to come back after dinner or later and answer you comments on my comments. I was so happy to see you resurface also and address those comments I had made awhile back. Thanks!

[Virgil]

amalia, I am truly impressed with this reading list of yours - and at your age....wonderful! I think you have plenty of time to catch up and read more L. or all of L's works. I still have a few left to read but I am getting there. You should read a good biography - it really enriches the experience of reading his work. I don't agree with Virgil on this point - that you can separate the author from his work. I found reading about his life made it more meaningful for me in the long-run.

Amalia, I'm impressed too. You may have read as many as I have.

These of the novels I've read:

Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
Women in Love (1920)
Kangaroo (1923)
The Fox (1923)
Kangaroo (1923)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)
The Man Who Died (1931)

Plus I've read just about all the short stories and lots of his poems, many of his essays, and some of his travel writing.

I guess I have read quite a bit of Lawrence.

[Janine]

I'm back I am having such a difficult week with work. Pheww!

Hi manolia, I am sorry you had such a difficult week at work. I guess some weeks are just like that. I hope this week is has improved in that category.
Thanks for taking time to come in here and comment.

Anyway, first i'd like to comment on the flower photos. Those were very nice Janine!

Thanks so much. I thought we could use a little color for the season. I posted some nice photos of chyrsanthemums in S&L; you might want to check them out, very autumn-like. I got them all online - not my photos. Pretty aren't they? I wish I could take the credit. Illustrations seem appropriate at slow periods and seem to perk everyone up. I am a very visual person!

You don't have to blush Janine. I have read two Dan Brown books and have enjoyed them! A fun and easy read, nothing more nothing less . And of course you have better taste in literature (or else you wouldn't be called the "tour guide" for no reason ).

Well, one just says the name and most people on here will cringe. I found the book entertaining and interesting, at times a bit corny and as I said before somewhere I kept thinking this would make a fine film. Actually I admit I did like the film, although they probably did change things. I liked the imagery and I like symbols and things like that - details in films. This is why I like Hitchcock films so much - he always used little details and objects and symbols. We sometimes do need a bit of entertaining and my friend urged me to read the book - she still loved it, and my other friend laughs at it so opinion is divided. I know, manolia, we both have way better taste in literature - real literature. Dan Brown's book is not literature to me but a novel. As someone already said - these ideas about Mary Magdaline were suggested long before Dan Brown thought to write his block-buster book; so I was only pointing out the Mary fact and the two Mary's references and connections.

Hmmm...i think you got that right too..Miriam seems to have that repressed sexuality, doesn't she?

Yes, and the more I read about her and her interaction with Paul it confuses me just what she wants or expects of him. Now I am just past the part where she brings Clara home and sets up the meeting with Clara and Paul. They all take a long walk in the fields and woodland. Why exactly is Miriam doing this? Does she really think that, if Paul goes off with Clara, he will eventually come back to her? I feel a bit confused at this point. I don't know how she would handle that, but I guess I don't recall this part of the book so well, and need to keep reading, till I see what transpires next. It just seems that she is setting up Paul, to fail with Clara, or to have this affair she can't have. Miriam does seem to be sexually repressed herself, like I said and you agreed upon.

I still have a lot of confusion about eye color with Lawrence. One time he seems to indicate one color means such and such and then later he changes it. Someone should do a whole thesis theme on "The Significance of the Color of Eyes in Lawrence's Work"..... Just don't look to me to write it...no pun intended.... 'look'....

Yes she does exactly that. Nice scene the one you mention

Yes, that scene seemed significant and I think I just read another similiar one where Miriam again reaches out to touch Paul. She seems to like to do so, but then she pulls back. She seems like a very confused young girl to me. I begin to wonder who is the more confused - he or her?
There are no simple explanations or answers to this novel.

Amalia we buy the same editions..i bet you have at least two shelves full of blue books .

Yes, I can see you two are twins with your pretty (sky, eye) blue copies of the 2004 Wordsworth Limited Editions! I am jealous - I only have old books bound in dull green. Were these required for your Universities?

Ok, my turn to brag. I have read all of these so far and ones that I read twice I put an * after.

NOVELS

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912) *
The Rainbow (1915)
The Lost Girl (1920)
Women in Love (1920) *
Aaron's Rod (1922)
The Fox (1923)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928) *
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)

Also - which I thought to be a novella:
Love Among the Haystacks

Following novels, novellas I may have read, so long ago I am not sure:

The Captain's Doll (1923)
The Ladybird (1923)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)


I did read:
Apocalypse (1931)

3 Travel Books - D.H.Lawrence in Italy -

Twilight in Italy
Sea and Sardinia
Etruscan Places

Read in part or intend to read:

The Complete Short Stories in 3 Volumes
Not all, but many so far; hope to read them all.

Complete Poetry of D.H.Lawrence
Read the majority, but not all; will eventually.

Various commentary/critical analysis books, articles by Lawrence, in part. Most articles were from:

Selected Literary Criticism

Did read in full -

3 Biographies:

The Intelligent Heart by Harry T. Moore
The Life of D.H. Lawrence

The phoenix and the flame: D.H. Lawrence; a biography
By Trease, Geoffrey, 1909

D.H.Lawrence
The Story of a Marriage
Brenda Maddox

Presently reading and intended reading:

Cambridge editions (more recent) Biographies:

D.H.Lawrence The Early Years 1885-1912 by John Worthen

D.H.Lawrence The Life of an Outsider by John Worthen

The Selected Letters of D.H.Lawrence



Additional intended reading - anything I missed.... !!!

I guess I did read a lot of L books and stories so far, huh....?

[Virgil]

Ok, my turn to brag. I have read all of these so far and ones that I read twice I put an * after.

NOVELS

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912) *
The Rainbow (1915)
The Lost Girl (1920)
Women in Love (1920) *
Aaron's Rod (1922)
The Fox (1923)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928) *
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)

Also - which I thought to be a novella:
Love Among the Haystacks

Following novels, novellas I may have read, so long ago I am not sure:

The Captain's Doll (1923)
The Ladybird (1923)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)


I did read:
Apocalypse (1931)

3 Travel Books - D.H.Lawrence in Italy -

Twilight in Italy
Sea and Sardinia
Etruscan Places

Read in part or intend to read:

The Complete Short Stories in 3 Volumes
Not all, but many so far; hope to read them all.

Complete Poetry of D.H.Lawrence
Read the majority, but not all; will eventually.

Various commentary/critical analysis books, articles by Lawrence, in part. Most articles were from:

Selected Literary Criticism

Did read in full -

3 Biographies:

The Intelligent Heart by Harry T. Moore
The Life of D.H. Lawrence

The phoenix and the flame: D.H. Lawrence; a biography
By Trease, Geoffrey, 1909

D.H.Lawrence
The Story of a Marriage
Brenda Maddox

Presently reading and intended reading:

Cambridge editions (more recent) Biographies

D.H.Lawrence The Early Years 1885-1912 by John Worthen

D.H.Lawrence The Life of an Outsider by John Worthen

The Selected Letters of D.H.Lawrence



Additional intended reading - anything I missed.... !!!

I guess I did read a lot of L books and stories so far, huh....?

Wow, that is very impressive Janine. You've read more than I have. I forgot to mention I have read many of the letters Lawrence wrote. Of course several biographies and a lot of critical commentary. But on the whole Janine I think you've read more of Lawrence directly than I have.

[Quark]

I have about 150 more pages to read. I am up to the part when Miriam has brought Clara to Paul and they all take a long walk out in the woods.

Wait, which woods scene are you at? Is it the one with Miriam and Paul or the one with Clara and Paul? Those are two radically different scenes, but I think two of the best in the book. Well, all of the second part of the novel is good.

[Janine]

Wait, which woods scene are you at? Is it the one with Miriam and Paul or the one with Clara and Paul? Those are two radically different scenes, but I think two of the best in the book. Well, all of the second part of the novel is good.

Quark You are a riot! I think there is more than two 'woods' scenes. You must be thinking like a man (you mean the two 'sexual encounters in the woods' scenes, don't you? This one I am referring to seems pretty innocent - the three people (Paul, Miriam, and Clara) are just merely hanging out in woods or the glen taking a leisurely stroll.

So, Q, you liked the second half of the book best, eh?

[Quark]

Quark You are a riot! I think there is more than two 'woods' scenes. You must be thinking like a man (you mean the two 'sexual encounters in the woods' scenes, don't you?

For me, those are the only two scenes in the book, and I have the sexually suggestive words double underlined. No, really, I mean the scene where Paul and Miriam are walking to or from the chapel, and they have some intimate, yet totally platonic, moment which is very revealing of both their individual characters' and their relationship. The scene with Clara I was thinking of is what I guess would be their first date. They fall into some ravine and have a flirtatious (perhaps sexual) time trying to find their way back to the road. I thought both of them were finely written, and also, as I said, very revelatory.

This one I am referring to seems pretty innocent - the three people (Paul, Miriam, and Clara) are just merely hanging out in woods or the glen taking a leisurely stroll.

I know what scene you're talking about. Yet, there isn't any sex in it, so my memory of it is kind of hazy.

So, Q, you liked the second half of the book best, eh?

Didn't you?

[Janine]

Wow, that is very impressive Janine. You've read more than I have. I forgot to mention I have read many of the letters Lawrence wrote. Of course several biographies and a lot of critical commentary. But on the whole Janine I think you've read more of Lawrence directly than I have.

Thanks Virgil,
Yes, once I started to tally it up, I was surprised myself. I don't recall if I read a few others - I mentioned that. I have a poor memory from years past. I know I was very 'taken' with L in my late 20's, early 30's.

Oh I forgot one thing - important thing, too.
I read:

Virgil's Thesis:
*Toward the Transfiguration: An Examination of the Use of the Transfigurative Experience in D. H. Lawrence’s Late Fiction.

*Definitely that has to be added to my reading list! A very worthwhile and helpful read!!!

So, I wonder how close I am to my goal of reading everything L wrote. I don't think I will accomplish all 8, 9, or? volumes of his "Complete Letters" in my lifetime - do you, V?
...And who knows, more L manuscripts might surface, eventually. It could be an endless pursuit....like Lawrence's endless wanderings....

For me, those are the only two scenes in the book, and I have the sexually suggestive words double underlined. No, really, I mean the scene where Paul and Miriam are walking to or from the chapel, and they have some intimate, yet totally platonic, moment which is very revealing of both their individual characters' and their relationship. The scene with Clara I was thinking of is what I guess would be their first date. They fall into some ravine and have a flirtatious (perhaps sexual) time trying to find their way back to the road. I thought both of them were finely written, and also, as I said, very revelatory.

How funny, Quark, did you really underline them? haha You must have underlined a lot of stuff in "Lady Chatterly's Lover"....Which version did you read???...and if you have not yet, I can see you are heading out to the bookstore now to buy it....
So what do you think I am - a dirty old lady? Why of course, I liked the second half best. Afterall am a red-blooded American girl (or was a girl at one time)..., still 'red-blooded'!

I know what scene you're talking about. Yet, there isn't any sex in it, so my memory of it is kind of hazy.

oh, I see - this scene just does not stand out to you...yes, I see...hummm...dulllll...no sex in it.....
How old were you when you first read this book, Q ???....You were probably under your bed covers, living at home with your parents, with a flashlight and yellow highligher.

Didn't you?

Of course, I loved every minute of this book equally so...hahahaha!