Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

Oh, let me see...I've finished reading "The Virgin and the Gypsy" this August. Lawrence's selected short stories was one of the books I took on vacations with me.

My professor is the best I had in my four-year course in university. I am still in touch with her as we are working together, planning my PhD, and I feel privileged for meeting her. Professor like her bring about any university's significance.

amalia, is "The Virgin and the Gypsy" in the short stories? I thought it was longer and more of a novelette. I can't seem to find it in my three short story books. I have another book with "St. Mawr" and "The Man Who Died", but now I have a feeling I don't have the "V an G". Maybe it is on this site. I will go and see now.

Your professor sounds wonderful. I wish I could met her. It is great that she is keeping in touch with you and helping your plan your PhD. I am friends with my high-school literature teacher, can you believe it? She retired a number of years back and lives in my town and is very active in the town and it's history, etc. I see her once in awhile. She was one of my best teachers, but now we often disagree about authors. I don't even think she likes Lawrence at all. She likes American literature, better than English. But I still like her as a friend; she is a nice lady.

You are so privileged to have such a fine teacher and sharing the appreciation of the same literature. Teachers like her do make a difference and are so significant in one's life, never to be forgotten.

I wish I had had a teacher with a specialty in Lawrence. It would have been a great experience for me. Alas, I had to feel my way through on my own, and I never knew (and still don't) if I got it right.

I've never read The Virgin and the Gypsy. It's not in Lawrence's Complete Short Stories. It is considered a short novel or novella.

Amalia, you're more than welcomed to my master's thesis if you think it would help.

Janine, you never mentioned your high school teacher. Which writers is she interested in?

[Janine]

I wish I had had a teacher with a specialty in Lawrence. It would have been a great experience for me. Alas, I had to feel my way through on my own, and I never knew (and still don't) if I got it right.

Virgil, Same here... with me. What a great experience that would have been. I just discovered Lawrence on my own, well with the suggestion of some guy I was interested in at the time. I don't even recall reading anything of L's in highschool, although my sister said she read "Rocking Horse Winner" in HS. Seems lots of high schools do teach that one, for some strange reason.

I've never read The Virgin and the Gypsy. It's not in Lawrence's Complete Short Stories. It is considered a short novel or novella.

I could have sworn I read it and had the book - like maybe two novellas in one book, but if so, I can't seem to locate the book now. I have lately been thinking of several books I had, and now I can't seem to find either which really bugs me. Odd, because I never ever throw things like that away. Maybe it will turn up if I search for it. I hate to go and buy it, if I have it already. I did just invest in a new copy of "The Rainbow", I figured you would like to hear me say that, Virgil. I do plan a re-reading, maybe in the summer, next year. I checked my big book which houses several of the novels, but it did not have that one. I must have borrowed a library book first time around. I know now I will have such a different concept and perception of the book. V, did you ever read "Arron's Rod"? Not sure I spelled that name correctly. Tired out now to check it.

Amalia, you're more than welcomed to my master's thesis if you think it would help.

It is fine writing Amalia - quite interesting. It did help me understand the theory although I admit I had to read it twice to grasp it all.

Janine, you never mentioned your high school teacher. Which writers is she interested in?

I know she does like Dickens and also loves Victor Hugo - we discussed "Les Miserables" recently, but I was shocked when she said she hated the British authors - I think she basically meant the modernists such as Woolf, Lawrence, Joyce and even Thomas Hardy - she does not like Hardy at all. I was a bit shocked to be honest with you, when she made this statement to me. She is a strictly religious minded, so maybe that is why. She is in her 70's now. She loves histories and I think she likes Shakespeare; well, to each his own, right? She liked Steinbeck, Thomas Wolf, Jack London, Herman Melville - Hemmingway, Hawthorne, Wharton; authors like that. She probably does not like any of the more subversive authors who questioned religion. My high school was tres conservative - what can I say. No wonder I broke loose and went to art school, right - what an eye-opener that was for a girl from a middle class conservative neighborhood in a small town in the suburbs!

[Virgil]

Virgil, Same here... with me. What a great experience that would have been. I just discovered Lawrence on my own, well with the suggestion of some guy I was interested in at the time. I don't even recall reading anything of L's in highschool, although my sister said she read "Rocking Horse Winner" in HS. Seems lots of high schools do teach that one, for some strange reason.

For some reason lots really like "The Rocking Horse Winner." It's an OK story, but there are so many other Lawrence stories that are top notch. I'm not sure why that one clicks with people at large. I should re-read it. Perhaps I missed something.

I could have sworn I read it and had the book - like maybe two novellas in one book, but if so, I can't seem to locate the book now. I have lately been thinking of several books I had, and now I can't seem to find either which really bugs me. Odd, because I never ever throw things like that away. Maybe it will turn up if I search for it. I hate to go and buy it, if I have it already. I did just invest in a new copy of "The Rainbow", I figured you would like to hear me say that, Virgil. I do plan a re-reading, maybe in the summer, next year. I checked my big book which houses several of the novels, but it did not have that one. I must have borrowed a library book first time around. I know now I will have such a different concept and perception of the book. V, did you ever read "Arron's Rod"? Not sure I spelled that name correctly. Tired out now to check it.

No I never read Aaron's rod. That's one of the novels lumped with Kangaroo and The Plumed Serpent as his mediocre period. Great that you bought The Rainbow. I really love that novel. If you want to read The virgin and the Gypsy, I'll be glad to lend it to you.

It is fine writing Amalia - quite interesting. It did help me understand the theory although I admit I had to read it twice to grasp it all.

Thank Janine.

I know she does like Dickens and also loves Victor Hugo - we discussed "Les Miserables" recently, but I was shocked when she said she hated the British authors - I think she basically meant the modernists such as Woolf, Lawrence, Joyce and even Thomas Hardy - she does not like Hardy at all. I was a bit shocked to be honest with you, when she made this statement to me. She is a strictly religious minded, so maybe that is why. She is in her 70's now. She loves histories and I think she likes Shakespeare; well, to each his own, right? She liked Steinbeck, Thomas Wolf, Jack London, Herman Melville - Hemmingway, Hawthorne, Wharton; authors like that. She probably does not like any of the more subversive authors who questioned religion. My high school was tres conservative - what can I say.

Well, there is some risque stuff in some of those American novelists. And Woolf is not risque at all. Perhaps she didn't care for the experimental writing style. You didn't mention Faulkner in the American writers she liked, and he was very experimental.

No wonder I broke loose and went to art school, right - what an eye-opener that was for a girl from a middle class conservative neighborhood in a small town in the suburbs!

You mean like painting male nudes.

[amalia1985]

I would be honoured to read your thesis, Virgil!!!!! Thank you so much!!!!

[Janine]

For some reason lots really like "The Rocking Horse Winner." It's an OK story, but there are so many other Lawrence stories that are top notch. I'm not sure why that one clicks with people at large. I should re-read it. Perhaps I missed something.

Virgil, I know - I never really could see the big fuss about that story. I thought it surreal and outlandish. I saw this really silly rendition of it on utube the other day - someone made it into a modern video. Well, to each his own. I think, like you I will have to re-read it; maybe there was something I had missed earlier on. I think O of C was good but I don't think that was L's best either. You know sometimes what the majority likes is not what I like particularly.

No I never read Aaron's rod. That's one of the novels lumped with Kangaroo and The Plumed Serpent as his mediocre period. Great that you bought The Rainbow. I really love that novel. If you want to read The virgin and the Gypsy, I'll be glad to lend it to you.

I read "Aaron's Rod" and thought it was a bit strange, but I don't think quite on par (strange-wise) with PS. It seemed to follow in the vane more of 'WIL' and 'Rainbow', but maybe I am thinking that, because I read it back around the time I read those two books. I did not know it was a much later work. Well, yes, I would borrow the book - "Virgin and the Gypsy" - thanks so much for offering it. Let me look around first because I can't imagine I don't have it - I distinctly recall reading it and my library has hardly any books on Lawrence - only "Sons and Lovers" and "Woman In Love" I think; possibly LCL....but it is doubtful - a very conservative library and town.

Thank Janine.

Hey, don't blush - you deserve credit - your thesis was a fine work of research and writing!

Well, there is some risque stuff in some of those American novelists. And Woolf is not risque at all. Perhaps she didn't care for the experimental writing style. You didn't mention Faulkner in the American writers she liked, and he was very experimental.

That is it exactly - like I said I grew up in a conservative environment and my HS probably banned books with any bit of subversion or risque quality about them. I think perhaps we might have read Faulkner. I know my good HS friend, Cliff, who was a rebel personified (M,B&D like you) pushed reading those books and authors. He loved Joyce and kept telling me for years "Janine, you are an artist and you have never read 'Portrait of an Artist' by Joyce? Shame on you!" You know it was not until a year ago, that I finally read the book. He would have been pleased. Better late than never, right? I think he read Faulkner and also Salinger - think he even got his autograph on his book end page. He died a number of years back and I know his sister-in-law mentioned the book to me recently; she has it. Anyway, it is a good memory thinking of him and how rebellious he was in HS -hey, someone had to stand up for the great authors, right! We probably had a different teacher then too - I recall another woman teaching Lit and she was way more progressive.

You mean like painting male nudes.

NO, that was not particularly what I meant! (dirty old man!) My college had some real characters, and that includes the professors. One professor I had played his flamingo quitar often in class; that was my English lit class - haha. He was heavy into Herman Hesse I recall and most times I think he was pretty 'high' in class! Hey, it was the 70's - hear this Amalia; that was the true 'Hippie era'. I lived through it the first time, not in the revival era only! We had a ball in art school! Not sure how much we learned, but it certainly was entertaining at the time.

Hey, V, I saw a film (parody) on going to art school the other night called "Art School Confidential"....I did laugh, and laugh (very amusing) and recall scenes like in my own art college like in this film. You should watch it sometime. You would like the nude model scenes - they were pretty funny and pretty realistic, to the way it really was. All except one guy makes comments about them continually and I don't recall any snickerers or anything like that. Still one main theme is that 'montage garbaaage' - that is with a long 'a' - we used to call it that - got all the 'acolades' and the poor smuck who really had talent, got passed by by the non-talented students and there were many, believe me - all politics and still is, unfortunately. John Malcovitz played a perfect talentless prof. He really fits this role well.

Peace everyone.....hahaha...that is 60's talk.... originally.

[amalia1985]

The volume that contains "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is a 2004 Wordsworth Limited Edition, with introduction and notes by Pr. Jeff Wallace of the University of Glamorgan.

It also contains the following stories:"Love among the Haystacks", "The Lovely Lady", "Rawdon's Roof", "The Rocking- Horse Winner", "The Man Who Loved Islands", and "The Man Who Died".

[Janine]

Amalia, thanks for listing that. I don't recall having that exact volume, because I don't think I ever read "The Lovely Lady" or Rawdon's Roof". I did read "Love Amoung the Haystacks"; and the last two you mention I have in one small volume (paperback). I probably have another paperback buried somewhere in my bookshelf or down in the basement or in a box - any number of hiding places in my way too crowded rooms! haha. I keep thinking I want to read again "Love Amoung the Haystacks" - I really loved that story. I remember thinking how sweet and nostalgic that story was and I got a real chuckle out of it.

I heard one critic online say how funny L could be sometimes in his work. You know I do believe we skip over some of his humor. I actually did see shreds of humor in some passages of "Sons and Lovers" on this second reading. Sometimes the mother is complaining about the father and it actually is kind of funny - she goes so over the top. Same in the short story - there were a few instances I kind of found amusing in her anger or resentment. They say Lawrence could be very humorous himself. He loved playing charades and they said people could not stop laughing at his impersonations. I don't think L was all heavy and serious all of the time.

I also want to read "The Fox" again, when I read "L among the H". These 2 books, or novellas, I know I have in a large volume of L's collected works. I probably have another big book somewhere with his collection, too. I just misplaced it. Too much stuff is my ultimate problem. I am still searching this week for a t-shirt with autumn leaves on it. I know I bought it, put it away and by the time I find it it the trees will be bare!

[Virgil]

The volume that contains "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is a 2004 Wordsworth Limited Edition, with introduction and notes by Pr. Jeff Wallace of the University of Glamorgan.

It also contains the following stories:"Love among the Haystacks", "The Lovely Lady", "Rawdon's Roof", "The Rocking- Horse Winner", "The Man Who Loved Islands", and "The Man Who Died".

Interesting collection. I have never seen it before. 2004 is relatively recent.

[Janine]

Yes, that is a newer edition and it must be 'limited', indeed - can't find it listed on Amazon, at all. I did however, find a movie from the 70's based on the book - looks quite good actually.

From Amazon - Product Description:
Starring Joanna Shimkus, Franco Nero, Honor Blackman, Mark Burns, Fay Compton and Maurice Denham. D. H. Lawrences most electrifying novel comes to life on the silver screen! This movie is based on a short novel by D. H. Lawrence that was discovered in France after his death in 1930. Immediately recognized as a masterpiece in which Lawrence had distilled and purified his ideas about sexuality and morality, the story has become a classic.Set in a small village in the English countryside, this is the story of a secluded, sensitive rector's daughter who yearns for meaning beyond the life to which she seems doomed. When she meets a handsome young gipsy whose life appears different from hers.

Thought that was interesting, being found after his death in France, that is where he died - France.

[Virgil]

I read "Aaron's Rod" and thought it was a bit strange, but I don't think quite on par (strange-wise) with PS. It seemed to follow in the vane more of 'WIL' and 'Rainbow', but maybe I am thinking that, because I read it back around the time I read those two books. I did not know it was a much later work. Well, yes, I would borrow the book - "Virgin and the Gypsy" - thanks so much for offering it. Let me look around first because I can't imagine I don't have it - I distinctly recall reading it and my library has hardly any books on Lawrence - only "Sons and Lovers" and "Woman In Love" I think; possibly LCL....but it is doubtful - a very conservative library and town.

Here's a listing of L's novels. Some of these are actually short stories, not novels. Aaron's Rod was 1922. However these are published dates, not when they were actually written. Women In Love was written around 1917 but did not get published until 1920.

NOVELS

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Trespasser (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
The Lost Girl (1920)
Women in Love (1920)
Aaron's Rod (1922)
Kangaroo (1923)
The Captain's Doll (1923)
The Fox (1923)
Kangaroo (1923)
The Ladybird (1923)
The Boy in the Bush (1924)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
John Thomas and Lady Jane (1927)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)
We Need One Another (1933)
Mr. Noon (1985)
You Touched Me (1993)
Paul Morel (2003)

Hey, don't blush - you deserve credit - your thesis was a fine work of research and writing!

Thanks. I'm quite proud of it.

That is it exactly - like I said I grew up in a conservative environment and my HS probably banned books with any bit of subversion or risque quality about them. I think perhaps we might have read Faulkner. I know my good HS friend, Cliff, who was a rebel personified (M,B&D like you) pushed reading those books and authors. He loved Joyce and kept telling me for years "Janine, you are an artist and you have never read 'Portrait of an Artist' by Joyce? Shame on you!" You know it was not until a year ago, that I finally read the book. He would have been pleased. Better late than never, right? I think he read Faulkner and also Salinger - think he even got his autograph on his book end page. He died a number of years back and I know his sister-in-law mentioned the book to me recently; she has it. Anyway, it is a good memory thinking of him and how rebellious he was in HS -hey, someone had to stand up for the great authors, right! We probably had a different teacher then too - I recall another woman teaching Lit and she was way more progressive.

Nice to share some fond memories.

NO, that was not particularly what I meant! (dirty old man!)

My college had some real characters, and that includes the professors. One professor I had played his flamingo quitar often in class; that was my English lit class - haha. He was heavy into Herman Hesse I recall and most times I think he was pretty 'high' in class! Hey, it was the 70's - hear this Amalia; that was the true 'Hippie era'. I lived through it the first time, not in the revival era only! We had a ball in art school! Not sure how much we learned, but it certainly was entertaining at the time.

College is such a great time. Free and relatively little repsonsibilities. And you're out in the world for the first time. I hate growing old.

Hey, V, I saw a film (parody) on going to art school the other night called "Art School Confidential"....I did laugh, and laugh (very amusing) and recall scenes like in my own art college like in this film. You should watch it sometime. You would like the nude model scenes - they were pretty funny and pretty realistic, to the way it really was.

All except one guy makes comments about them continually and I don't recall any snickerers or anything like that.

Well, the didn't have someone like me (MB&D) in your class.

Peace everyone.....hahaha...that is 60's talk.... originally.

You didn't go to college in the 60's. You're not that old. Peace, sister.

[Janine]

Here's a listing of L's novels. Some of these are actually short stories, not novels. Aaron's Rod was 1922. However these are published dates, not when they were actually written. Women In Love was written around 1917 but did not get published until 1920.

Virgil, I would have to check back in (like I will miss something if I don't). I need to be banned like that person begging Logos to ban them on her blog.
Anyway, thanks for posting this list. Wait, why is Kangaroo listed twice? Also was Paul Morel (original novel of S&L) published late? I wonder what that novel is like and how it differs from S&L's...hummmm. So I was right -"Aaron's Rod" came right after WIL. I am a good guesser, aren't I?

Thanks. I'm quite proud of it.

You should be very proud. I am sure it took a lot of doing and hardwork and taxed your brain, too!

Nice to share some fond memories.

It is - glad I could share that with all of you. It brings my friend back to me in memory. He was a very special person. We met in 9th grade, friends for life.

College is such a great time. Free and relatively little repsonsibilities. And you're out in the world for the first time. I hate growing old.

*creaking body, creaking bones, sore neck* yes growing old is hateful isn't it? I want to start all over again and especially from those college days - they were the best! What fun we had in art college. And most of the people I meet there were crazy like me. I felt very much in my 'element'.

Why are you blushing?

Well, the didn't have someone like me (MB&D) in your class.

Oh yes, my friend Karl - he was quite a riot....and definitely MB&D to know! I think I told you about him before. He was born in a bombing raid in Germany, so he was all 'spite-fire', believe me! He kept me laughing! Hey, Karl, if you are out there - you still have me laughing! He thought it real funny to lift me up in the air before class - I was a half-pint then and he was this big robust German guy - cute, too. I complained, but actually I did not mind.

You didn't go to college in the 60's. You're not that old. Peace, sister.

uhhh eehhhh wellllll....graduated HS in 68 (spring) and started college in 1968 (fall)....but I know, I look so youthful, you are all so amazed. The Beatles were at their height and everyone was protesting the war. I was on the borderline of being a true hippie. Peace and Love!

[Virgil]

Anyway, thanks for posting this list. Wait, why is Kangaroo listed twice? Also was Paul Morel (original novel of S&L) published late? I wonder what that novel is like and how it differs from S&L's...hummmm. So I was right -"Aaron's Rod" came right after WIL. I am a good guesser, aren't I?

Don't know why Kangaroo is posted twice. Maybe a mistake. Paul Morel must be an early draft of S&L. Yes you were right about Aaron's Rod.

*creaking body, creaking bones, sore neck* yes growing old is hateful isn't it? I want to start all over again and especially from those college days - they were the best! What fun we had in art college. And most of the people I meet there were crazy like me. I felt very much in my 'element'.

Yes quite a difference between 18 years old and 50 years old. But it beats the alternative.

Why are you blushing?

Because you keep talking about porno flicks.

uhhh eehhhh wellllll....graduated HS in 68 (spring) and started college in 1968 (fall)....but I know, I look so youthful, you are all so amazed. The Beatles were at their height and everyone was protesting the war. I was on the borderline of being a true hippie. Peace and Love!

Oh i guess you did go to college in the sixties.

[Janine]

Don't know why Kangaroo is posted twice. Maybe a mistake. Paul Morel must be an early draft of S&L. Yes you were right about Aaron's Rod.

They must have revived Paul Morel for publication. Many people are curious these days and want to see the original drafts. L wrote so many versions of many of his novels.

Yes quite a difference between 18 years old and 50 years old. But it beats the alternative.

True, very true.

Because you keep talking about porno flicks.

No, I don't (!) and I think you are a riot! If you go to Italy, you will see nude statues everywhere - fountains, street corners, churches, public buildings, town squares. You are not really that naive are you? Someone had to model for all of these, you know.

Oh i guess you did go to college in the sixties.

...duh, yes I am afraid I did start college in the 60's. Now all our music everyone is listening to and loving it....revivals of everything! rock on!

[amalia1985]

Oh, my God, so many Lawrence's novels and stories I haven't read yet!!!!!! I had an appetite now, I tell you!!I must find them all!!!!! I have read:

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
Women in Love (1920)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)
...and that's all...I must find them!!!

[Alexei]

Sorry for not taking part in the discussion for so long, but I need a lot of time for the Russian literature. I will try to participate more from now on

Amalia, I feel the same way. After all I have read only two books and you have read so many!!! But I will read more if I am alive after so much Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. It will be a veeerrrrry long reading