Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

Yeah it is; I wish it would go away, too! What is with this, anyway? I thought this afternoon it was getting better and now it's paining me again - have been watching a movie with a heating pad wrapped round my neck/ ear/back of my head. Looks pretty funny...ever try wrapping a heating pad around your neck? not easy/ At least I can't feel the pain that way. I was falling asleep and I don't want to yet, so I just drank some coffee and now the pain is better - they do put caffeine into pain killers...strange.

That does sound funny. Caffeine is wonderful stuff. It stmulates all sorts of things inside. It helps us in many respects.

Oh good! I will try to read it, soon as this month's discussions are fully done. Why is no one else posting in there - did I kill the thread?

No, I think we're just done with Odor of the Chrysanthemums. I have nothing left to say.

Bengay stinks and makes my eyes burn.

They have the odorless kind. It has helped me in the past.

I tried Capsasian once (made from hot peppers) but it irritated my skin. Think I will stick to the heating pad.
Thanks for your concern, V! I am sure I will live

You'll live, but you're falling apart. Not looking forward to your age.

Hey, this might be more significant than my other dumb posts on the rose idea. I just found this online: symbolism of roses

White: innocence, purity, secrecy, friendship, reverence and humility

That would certainly fit the profile for Miriam, wouldn't it?

Yes it does.

In the book "The White Peacock" there is an amazing scene in the woods with white snow-drops that is very reminescent of this passage with the white roses. I will type it up when I am feeling better. It is a lovely passage - one of my favorites.

OK. When you feel up to it.

[Janine]

That does sound funny. Caffeine is wonderful stuff. It stmulates all sorts of things inside. It helps us in many respects.

Yeah, really - don't think I will ever give up caffeine completely. Yeah, caffeine - I have had my caffeine and not I am wide-awake and 'wired'

No, I think we're just done with Odor of the Chrysanthemums. I have nothing left to say.

We are? I never know when to quite do I? I am sort of a diehard that way! I keep thinking there must be more we can say about it but I suppose everyone is anxious to move along. I don't blame them one bit. We can't discuss every little line or idea in the story; I have to let it go....

They have the odorless kind. It has helped me in the past.

Really? And it does not burn one's eyes - still it is methal or something like that. Funny thing is, I just took some meds, and now I feel ok again - before that I was dying of pain. Also, it seems to come and go even without the meds.

You'll live, but you're falling apart. Not looking forward to your age.

Gee thanks I hope you make it to this 'ripe old' age I am... If I were you, I would work out more and more - ward off old the aging process.

Yes it does.

I thought now that was a better reference and a whole lot simplier, too. Guess I was in a fog yesterday when I posted all that other stuff. I could not quite relay what I was actually thinking of or trying to say about the the rose being and age-old symbol throughout religious history.

OK. When you feel up to it.

Hey, I have had my coffee now. I am wide-awake, like I said!

Here is the excerpt from "The White Peacock" - found it online and had to type it out, but was easy to refer to online, as I did type (tiled next to the text). This was just something I found interesting having to do with Lawrence's early thought processes and his imagery with another white flower - the snowdrop.

Passage from "The White Peacock":

As I talked to Emily I became dimly aware of a whiteness over the ground. She exclaimed with surprise, and I found that I was walking, in the first shade of twilight, over clumps of snowdrops. The hazels were thin, and only here and there an oak tree uprose. All the ground was white with snowdrops, like drops of manna scattered over the red earth, on the grey-green clusters of leaves. There was a deep little dell, sharp sloping like a cup, and white sparkling of flowers all the way down, with white flowers showing pale among the first inpouring of shadow at the bottom. The earth was red and warm, pricked with the dark, succulent green bluebell sheaths, and embroidered with grey-green clusters of spears, and many white flowerets. High above, about the light tracery of hazel, the weird oaks tangled in the sunset. Below, in the first shadows, dropped hosts of little white flowers, so silent and sad; it seemed like a holy communion of pure wild things, numberless, frail, folded meekly in the evening light. Other flower companies are glad; stately barbaric borders of bluebells, merry-headed cowslip groups, even light, tossing wood-anemones; but snowdrops are sad and mysterious. We have lost their meaning. They do not belong to us, who ravish them. The girls bend among them, touching them with their fingers, and symbolizing the yearning which I felt. Folded in the twilight, those conquered flowerets are sad like forlorn little friends of dryads.

“What do they mean, do you think?” said Leslie.

“They remind me of mistletoe, which is never ours, though we wear it.” Said Emily to me.

“What do you think they say – what do they make you think, Cyril?” Lettie repeated.

“I don’t know. Wmily says they belong to some old wild lost religion –They were the symbol of tears, perhaps, to some strange hearted Druid folk before us.”

“More than tears.” Said Lettie “More than tears, they are so still. Something out of an old religion, that we have lost. The make me feel afraid.”

“What should you have to fear?” said Leslie.

“If I knew I shouldn’t fear,” she answered “Look at all the snowdrops” –they hung in dim, strange flecks among the dusky leaves –“look at them—closed up, retreating, powerless. They belong to some knowledge we have lost, that I have lost, and that I need. I feel afraid. They seem like something in fate. Do you think, Cyril, we can lose things from off the earth – like mastodons, and those old monstrosities –but things that matter –wisdom?”

I thought this imagery very interesting being another white flower that stands out in the dim forest - contrasting and with deeper meaning. I wonder what significance snowdrops might have. I will try and research them as I did the rose. See below the photos - I came up with one symbolic reference so far. Snowdrops are pretty, eh?

snowdrops in England in January


Another photo of snowdrops



Symbolism - (found this reference online)

"Snowdrops, because of their first bloom in many areas, are symbols,
more generally, of hope itself, giving rise to the ancient legend
that in their desolation over the seemingly unending winter cold
and winds and the death of plants displacing the continuous
temperate summer of Eden - through the rupture of the original
integrity and equilibrium of the sensitive attunement of the world
soul by the effects of original sin - the merciful hope of spring
was introduced through the discovery by Adam and Eve of the first
snowdrop blooms."

Here is a poem by Lawrence I just found comparing himself to a rose:

I am Like a Rose


I am myself at last; now I achieve
My very self, I, with the wonder mellow,
Full of fine warmth, I issue forth in clear
And single me, perfected from my fellow.

Here I am all myself. No rose-bush heaving
Its limpid sap to culmination has brought
Itself more sheer and naked out of the green
In stark-clear roses, than I to myself am brought.

[manolia]

You've all been busy
I haven't read all your posts (i've been gone for two days)..but i will, eventually read all of them

Yes, I know they brought up the symbolism in the DaVinci code quite a bit. I did not think it had to be red necessarily.
Wow, manolia - you sure got over here fast or didn't you read my post in movies yet? If not, we must have ESP. I have missed seeing you here and our nice and stimulating conversations.
Interesting about the apple, too. I bet that symbol crops up frequently in L's work. Wasn't it mentioned in WIL? Come to think of it, Miriam, in this chapter I just read, offered Paul an apple when they were trying to study - do you remember that scene? This thought adds more interest to that moment, since he seemed annoyed at her at first being distracted. Perhaps the significance comes when he finally bit into her apple.

Janine it must have been ESP since i haven't yet seen your post in the movie thread
As for Mary Magdalene, like i said i am not sure if this symbolisms fits to this book, but Mary Magdalene according to the lore (or conspiracy theory, you can choose how to call it ) was supposed to be one of Jesus followers (like his 12 pupils and an equal to them) and she was Jesus companion and ..well..lover. The whole rose symbolism is suppossed to refer to the blood lineage that sprank from their union..well those things are just lore if you ask me and they are funny to read..but that's it Not to be taken very seriously.
As for the novel, it makes more sense, at least to me that Miriam is depicted as Mary Magdalene and not as Virgin Mary:

1) Miriam is Paul's admirer and follower of his art (as according to the above lore, Mary Magdalene was a follower of Jesus)
2)and Miriam has sexual intercourse with Paul (without their being married) which makes her somehow a ""sinner"" (for the era she lived of course) and Mary Magdalene (according to the above lore) was Jesus follower and wife.

This kind of theories exist many many years and many a book prior to the da vinci code have used that kind of symbolism (my favourite being Ecco's "Fucault's Pendulum")

I have yet to read your other posts.

EDIT

I would put much emphasis on Miriam’s dark eyes, a very important feature. Many heroines- not only of Lawrence, but of the majority of authors- attract attention with their dark eyes, e. g. Anna Karenina or Collin’s “Woman in White”. Perhaps, it is a symbol of mystery and warmth. I don’t think it has much to do with purity, but even if we take daily experiences in our mind, the dark eyes of a man or a woman is always something that attracts attention.

Yes i agree. Dark eyes are suppossed to be mysterious and warm (or expressive) whereas blue eyes are cold and distant.
I always thought (being a fan of brittish literature) that the constant mention of dark eyes has something to do with the fact that they are not that common in northern countries, don't know if i am right though..hmmmm..

“She might have been one of the women who went with Mary when Jesus was dead.” A very important statement, I would say. I believe it as another indication of Miriam’s spiritual love, “freed” from the aspirations of a carnal relationship, like Mary Magdalene’s love for Jesus, perhaps? Quite controversial for many, but a possibility we have to keep in mind, regarding Lawrence’s use of the example. Can it be accidental? I wouldn’t think so.

Good point. I didn't remember that till you mentioned it. Another Magdalene referance (possibly)..can't be sure though.

I wanted to add something about Miriam. Just a single thought. Did you notice often in the text she is mentioned as hanging back from the crowd, (such as when they all take an excrusion to that famous rock formation), she is then quiet and all to herself - contained, withdrawn, shy? She is jealous in many ways of Paul's attention to the others and she does not want to share him at all. I can easily see how their relationship would not work out, in the long-run. Even in moments of intense sharing she wants only he to be present within her own little religious realm. She is very possessive this way of Paul, I think. It is funny, because by contrast, Lawrence did marry a woman who was quite socialble and he also could be so as they traveled to various contries. He made many many friends; both of them did. I think that Miriam (Jesse) wanted to contain Lawrence and tie him down and he would not have had the freedom he desired in his life if he stayed with this woman.

Very well said. Miriam is possesive of Paul. No wonder he felt that he was suffocating.

The eyes are also interesting to me - in one book I read of L's - "The Lost Girl" the man's eyes were mentioned often as being yellow, which at the time I found to be quite strange. I am still not completely sure of this meaning to Lawrence, except to say he mentions them as being animalistic or of the natural world. I do also recall in "The Fox" - an excellent tale - that the fox had the piercing glowing yellow eyes. Perhaps Miriam's dark eyes symbolise a deep mysterious spirituality. In the "Plumed Serpent" one main character is often mentioned with dark black 'blank' looking eyes. Eyes, in all aspects, seem to have fascinated our Lawrence since all his books mention them often....blue as well. I do think each colors had certain significance for L....perhaps symbolism.

I agree again. Yellow eyes reminds me of cats, tigers and suchlike animals. Yellow eyes in a human being may suggest certain animal traits (perhaps this refers to excessive sexuallity, hostility or it may suggest that this person is wild, hateful, quick tempered, violent etc). Yellow is also the colour of hatred, is it not?

EDIT again

White: innocence, purity, secrecy, friendship, reverence and humility

That would certainly fit the profile for Miriam, wouldn't it?

You got the white colour right, i am sure The description fits her like a glove

I hope your neck is ok by now Janine

I barely remember the columns of fire Janine, so I can't really comment. Wait, it does come back somewhat. Columns of fire in The Plumed Serpent are suggestive of (please excuse me here ) of penises. But certainly in the later Lawrence the sun is a source of strength, power, spirituality. May I suggest a short story for the Lawrence short story thread, a story call "Sun."( ....). I think it was written shortly after The Plumed Serpent and one can see how Lawrence had really become as cloase to a pagan as any modern person can.

Hmmm..sounds interesting..
I liked very much this phrase of yours i have highlighted..it is true. I remember vividly that scene from Women in Love where he was describing the african figurines..and the whole blood theory you were explaining to us.


Everyone, sorry for the long post. I had to keep up with the conversation.

[amalia1985]

First of all, Janine, I must thank you for the beautiful pictures of the snowdrops. They have already found their place in my desktop photos archive.

Now, regarding the passage from The White Peacock: As you and Virgil said, whiteness has a very important part in the passage. I think that, once again, Lawrence uses it in contrast to the shadows and the darkness. Can the dropped white flowers, “silent and sad”, symbolize a kind of virginity and innocence that is being threatened?
“Ravish” is a key word, I believe. The innocence that is represented by the flowers is, somehow, destroyed. The yearning and the touching are connected, twilight is, again, present, and I must relate the use of the sad myth of the dryads to the reference of the symbol of tears.

I have a question, though, and I read The White Peacock, some months ago; What is it that Lettie fears? She says she needs knowledge and wisdom. Can these two notions come in contrast to innocence? To connect it with Sons and Lovers: Clara is a woman that “knows” the world, but Miriam lives in a spiritual world of her own. What do you think?

[Janine]

You've all been busy
I haven't read all your posts (i've been gone for two days)..but i will, eventually read all of them

Yes, also busy last night (after I drank some coffee to stay awake and was quite 'wired' up) posting some photos for illustrations - thought it perked up our thread a little. I should have posted a wild white rose bush, too. Anyway, aren't the snowdrops pretty? I know they were not in S&L's (that I recall) but I thought you might all find the passage from "The White Peacock" of some interest in relation to finding the white rose bush in the wood. I had promised awhile back to post this passage on snowdrops, but had to type it up.

Janine it must have been ESP since i haven't yet seen your post in the movie thread

Yes, I believe we definitely have ESP, manolia! Have you seen my post in movies by now? At anyrate, I am glad you are back here and don't ever appologise for such a long post - I really enjoyed it emensely. Nice to see someone else fill half a page in the thread besides me! It is a very good post, M!

As for Mary Magdalene, like i said i am not sure if this symbolisms fits to this book, but Mary Magdalene according to the lore (or conspiracy theory, you can choose how to call it ) was supposed to be one of Jesus followers (like his 12 pupils and an equal to them) and she was Jesus companion and ..well..lover. The whole rose symbolism is suppossed to refer to the blood lineage that sprank from their union..well those things are just lore if you ask me and they are funny to read..but that's it Not to be taken very seriously.
As for the novel, it makes more sense, at least to me that Miriam is depicted as Mary Magdalene and not as Virgin Mary:

1) Miriam is Paul's admirer and follower of his art (as according to the above lore, Mary Magdalene was a follower of Jesus)
2)and Miriam has sexual intercourse with Paul (without their being married) which makes her somehow a ""sinner"" (for the era she lived of course) and Mary Magdalene (according to the above lore) was Jesus follower and wife.

This kind of theories exist many many years and many a book prior to the da vinci code have used that kind of symbolism (my favourite being Ecco's "Fucault's Pendulum")

All of this is quite good and expands the idea. I know that theory has been around long before Dan Brown came out with his blockbuster/contraversial novel. It is the prior stuff I was more interested in. The novel is pretty corny and commercial. I do have better taste in literature than DB's work. But this added information really throws better light on the correlation between Mary Magdeline and Mirriam. You could probably say that Paul's mother better correlated to Mary, Christ's mother - in sacrificing her sons to the world. Just a thought....maybe way off with that one...just a thought.

Yes i agree. Dark eyes are suppossed to be mysterious and warm (or expressive) whereas blue eyes are cold and distant.
I always thought (being a fan of brittish literature) that the constant mention of dark eyes has something to do with the fact that they are not that common in northern countries, don't know if i am right though..hmmmm..

At least Lawrence seems to think that is true and maybe it is. I don't know for fact. In his later book "The Plumed Serpent" he spoke quite often of the Southern races and their dark complexions and their dark black eyes. He contrasts the two so often like in WIL with Rupert's warmer darker eyes and then with Gerald's cooler (Nordic type) blue ones; of which we discussed earlier in WIL what each seemed to represent to Lawrence. It is strange now that in his earlier novel "Sons and Lovers" Miriam is the one with the mysterious dark eyes. It almost indicates to me that she had the potential represent the blood theory or the deep sexual mysteries and yet she is not the one to do so for Paul, instead it is Clara he finds sexual furfillment with but not entirely. I don't know if that last statement of mine makes sense. It just seems strange now that Miriam has the dark mysterious eyes but these now seem indicative of religious/mystical mysteries. Paul's eyes are described as being blue - correct? I think L often mention's Mrs. Morel's eyes as also being a clear blue.
Looking back to your statements - I do think your first statement on 'eyes' is correct. Miriam had the warm eyes and so did Paul's father.
Yellow eyes still seem strange to me. I felt that in "The Lost Girl", an interesting book, by the way, Lawrence used the description of the eyes in different ways that suggested a darkness and then flecks of light. I really was not sure what he was getting at. Then in "Plumed Serpent" I think he again made mention of eyes with flecks of light or yellow. I felt this corresponded to the sun but I am not completely sure of that. That was only my own theory. One could do a whole study on "Eyes in the work of D.H.Lawrence: Their Significance". Hey, Virgil, would that make a good topic for a thesis? Another topic could be: "The Symbolism of Flowers in DHL's Works." haha - I still might get that masters degree in L

Good point. I didn't remember that till you mentioned it. Another Magdalene referance (possibly)..can't be sure though.

That was a good point, Amalia. Interesting to think of it this way, especially since later L wrote a story about Christ, if he had been human and not divine and died on the cross - "The Man Who Died". You might want to read it and see if it reveals anything. I think I might sqeeze it in now, between other readings. I think I have it here, in a collected works of his short fiction.

Very well said. Miriam is possesive of Paul. No wonder he felt that he was suffocating.

Yes, true, that 'suffocating' would be a good word for it. I also think, as I read further along, that Paul had to be very sexually frustrated. In some instances Miriam seems to lead Paul on and then withdraw herself from him. There seems to be a tug and then a pulling away that gets annoying to me. She lured him into the woods at dust or dark and then she is cool to him if he tries to approach her. She is not sure in herself either and she 'wants him' and yet she is tied to tradition and to her morals and a higher sense of her worth. There is a definite conflict going on inside of Miriam. She, too, has to feel some sense of sexual frustration, even though she won't let herself go and be natural with Paul. In a sense, she is the more frustrated. It must have been hard being in love in those days. I think by now in the story, he is 22 and she is 20, but they seem to have little physical contact, although they both do crave it. I am thinking on the scene when he fixes the bicycle tire and she admires his skill and wants to run her hands down his sides. Then finally, she does, but that is as far as it goes - she pulls back away from him again. This must have been confusing and lonely for Paul; confusing for her, too. I can see why he is angry much of the time with her or annoyed with her. Am I wrong? If I am please correct me. I don't have to be the 'tour quide' or 'the leader' - just another lowly participant in this thread struggling along with my thoughts, just like all of you. I am only half way through the book, and all of you are probably done reading, correct? What a 'slow-poke' I have been on this one. But I am enjoying my second reading very much, more than the first time. I think I may have to read it a third time....well, someday.

I agree again. Yellow eyes reminds me of cats, tigers and suchlike animals. Yellow eyes in a human being may suggest certain animal traits (perhaps this refers to excessive sexuallity, hostility or it may suggest that this person is wild, hateful, quick tempered, violent etc). Yellow is also the colour of hatred, is it not?

Not sure in L's mind it would be 'excessive' sexuality, but definitely a more earthy sexual, sensual person. In some of L's works, I do think it indicates a certain hate or power such as in "The Prussian Officer" - I will have to look that up and see if he was dark-eyed or yellow-eyed. I am sure it mentions eyes in that story, too. Yet Gerald had the blue eyes and he showed power at times, like when he comes to the railway and makes the horse stay as the train goes by. Not sure what all this eye stuff truly indicates. I think by now I have completely confused myself!

You got the white colour right, i am sure The description fits her like a glove

Thanks, I thought so, too. Glad I found this reference in my travels via cyberspace. On utube I found a video the other day of a tour of Lawrence's ranch in NM - it was quite interesting. You might find it and check it out. In searching for one little thing, I always find a dozen other interesting sites.

I hope your neck is ok by now Janine

Thanks, M. My neck is strange; first it hurts badly and then it has periods of feeling like it is getting better. If it keeps up, I will have to go to the drs. My sister had same type thing a few months back and it straightened out finally. Hope mine does too. Too much computer is probably killing my back.

Hmmm..sounds interesting..
I liked very much this phrase of yours i have highlighted..it is true. I remember vividly that scene from Women in Love where he was describing the african figurines..and the whole blood theory you were explaining to us.

I really desire now to read that 'Sun' story. Let that be the next short story - what do you think, V? This way we can see some correlation, perhaps concerning this book and the 'sun' or 'column of fire' references. I love linking the stories - easy to do with L's work - themes spill over into his other stories, novels and even his poems; although they are changed often and transposed into something quite different or altered. It mades the whole study so interesting....like taking the journey of discovery with Lawrence.

Hey,Virgil, did you notice in one passage in S&L when he was speaking of Miriam he did mention the word "Transfiguration" or so I think he did - unless I mistaked it for "Transformation" - seemed early in his writing to be thinking this way.

Everyone, sorry for the long post. I had to keep up with the conversation.

And you thought your post was long.......
manolia......NEVER be sorry for a long post!!!!! on your 'interesting' post!

Wow - just editing this - amalia, we must have posted the same time. How funny! ESP again - must be because you and Manolia are Greek - haha - I must have a direct connection to ancient culturess. ha!
Let me think about your questions further, because I don't know the answers off hand.
Wow, I have not meet anyone who read "The White Peacock"....and here you have, amalia.....we must discuss the book. Although, I realise that it was not as developed as S&L's was, is it not a fascinating book? Being it was Lawrence's first published novel it interested me greatly. It does explore some strange areas, such as Annabele and the white peacock, yet there is so much of the seed in that of L's later novels, I found it fascinating. Also, aren't some of the passages beautiful? Almost they still retain a kind of youth, freshness and innocense? I loved the bird nest in the field, and the later reference to it when Cyril comes across it, holding the two tiny hatched baby birds. I have a thing about birdnests so I found this so romantic and so poetically written but with deeper meaning.

[amalia1985]

Yes, Janine, we must definetely discuss "The White Peacock", I read it in university, along with other Lawrence's writings.

I am interested in everything that can be characterised controversial, I want to get and explore more ideas concerning religious and social subjects. I think that "The Man Who Died" is probably the most moving short story about Christ, so stunning, and makes someone understand the torchure the Man went through, which trully made me think a lot of things.

I bought "The Virgin and the Gypsy, and other stories", by Lawrence two years ago. I would love to discuss some of them with all of you. I think that stories like The Man who Died, although they can be characterised "controversial" too bring someone closer to the Human Jesus, but this is only my opinion.

Dan Brown's book was, well, without comments. What you said about taste applies for me too. It's not the subject that met my objections. Personally, I have no problem with the possibility of Jesus having an earthly life, before His Passion, but I think that it all depends on the manner the author uses to express his/her theories. For example, Kazantzakis' "The Last Temptation" deals with the same-more or less-theory that exists around, but in a poetic, "elegant" way.

I think I went off the point, I am looking forward to the continuation of our discussion with all of you.

[Janine]

My last post was gigantic so I am making this one, too....restless and need a life I suppose.....anyway, was looking up white roses again ....since you liked my photos so much amalia, here is another to add to your desktop file:

Wild white roses:




Found this on another site - good symbolism/meaning of the white rose:

Meaning of White Roses

White roses are traditionally symbolic of purity and virtue, innocence and sincerity. From the cradle to the grave, white roses are often present to mark the passage of time in our lives. In Victorian times at birth, white roses symbolic of innocence, might have been given to celebrate the new arrival. At marriage a bride may have carried a white bouquet, symbolic of her purity and virtue and at death a coffin may have been decorated with white (and often white and red) roses as a symbol of sincerity and eternal love.
Today we still follow many of these traditions. In the ‘language of flowers’, white roses are symbolic of pure intentions.

In a romantic context, a white rose may be a heart innocent of love, or it may symbolise undying love, a love and loyalty deeper than fleeting passion. Hence in the ‘language of flowers’ both meanings are accommodated, a white rosebud meaning ‘I am too young to be loved’ and a white rose meaning ‘I am worthy of you’.

Like in John Boyle O’Reilly’s poem (above), white and red roses can be seen as symbolic opposites. The Christian Virgin Mary takes the white roses as her symbol as did the Greek & Roman Aphrodite (Venus) Goddess of Love. While the Virgin Mary represents the purity and innocence of the virginal, Aphrodite represents the passage of womanhood – when she is virginal she is represented by white roses, when sexual/fertile she is represented by red roses.

Yes, Janine, we must definetely discuss "The White Peacock", I read it in university, along with other Lawrence's writings.

I am interested in everything that can be characterised controversial, I want to get and explore more ideas concerning religious and social subjects. I think that "The Man Who Died" is probably the most moving short story about Christ, so stunning, and makes someone understand the torchure the Man went through, which trully made me think a lot of things.

I bought "The Virgin and the Gypsy, and other stories", by Lawrence two years ago. I would love to discuss some of them with all of you. I think that stories like The Man who Died, although they can be characterised "controversial" too bring someone closer to the Human Jesus, but this is only my opinion.

Dan Brown's book was, well, without comments. What you said about taste applies for me too. It's not the subject that met my objections. Personally, I have no problem with the possibility of Jesus having an earthly life, before His Passion, but I think that it all depends on the manner the author uses to express his/her theories. For example, Kazantzakis' "The Last Temptation" deals with the same-more or less-theory that exists around, but in a poetic, "elegant" way.

I think I went off the point, I am looking forward to the continuation of our discussion with all of you.

amalia,
Yikes we did it again - you posted same time or right before me! How funny. I am thrilled you are so interested in these writings and books of L's....wow, and you studied them in university - you must have had a professor who was an L enthusiast like me. Yes, I too agree with you on the contraversial aspects of the stories and writings and actually reading "The Man Who Died" does make it a more real experience. Afterall, it was an earthly suffering. I must dig that book out and read it again because often in commentary they refer back to it and also in the biographies I have read. I have been thinking about refreshing my memory on it for sometime now. I did read "The Virgin and the Gypsy" and I think I liked it very much. That too is on my 'repeat' L reading list.

Yes, hmmmm, Dan Brown....so much for his style of writing...very basic and corny at times...I kept rolling my eyes and thinking this sounds like a movie script - 'Indiana Jones' style....sure enough someone thought so, too...Ron Howard. Actually, I found the movie more entertaining as a mere thriller. So I suppose we agree on DB and his presentation of the idea. Interesting to know someone did so prior to him and presented it much better and more feasibly. Now, that I would not mind reading, just out of curiosity. In posting the stuff about the DiVinci Code book, I was merely showing what the theory presented, not praising his book, by a long shot. I would never read another of his books. One was quite enough.

[Virgil]

As for the novel, it makes more sense, at least to me that Miriam is depicted as Mary Magdalene and not as Virgin Mary:

1) Miriam is Paul's admirer and follower of his art (as according to the above lore, Mary Magdalene was a follower of Jesus)
2)and Miriam has sexual intercourse with Paul (without their being married) which makes her somehow a ""sinner"" (for the era she lived of course) and Mary Magdalene (according to the above lore) was Jesus follower and wife.

That is very interesting Manolia. Now I don't know which to think. You may be right.

[Janine]

That is very interesting Manolia. Now I don't know which to think. You may be right.

Yes, this was what I was orginally thinking as well, not of Mary as the mother but Mary as the girlfriend or friend or potential girlfriend in relation to Paul.


A later part of the book interested me - also a flower reference - when Mrs. Morel calls Paul out to the garden to point out some foreign bulbs that have bloomed and she does not know where they could have come from. Paul says finally that he had planted a mixed set, apparently as a surprise for his mother. His sharing with her seemed almost to correlate to the religious or deeply felt sharing of the white rose bush in the forrest with Miriam. Did anyone else pick up on the two passages being similiar with the two woman in Paul's life? His reaction to his mother's delight is quite different than it is towards Miriams, if I recall it correctly.

[Quark]

amalia, I think that Miriam's possessiveness is a sign of her imaturity for one. She is young and may have grown out of that. I don't think though the relationship between Paul and Miriam would have worked out in the long-run. If Paul represents an image and the thoughts of Lawrence himself then he would never be satisfied rooted in the same place for long. This is what Miriam would have liked - to keep Paul all to herself and rooted. Also she wanted him to remain fitting her image of what she felt he was. She worshipped Paul and Paul wanted merely to be a man to her not a god.

I wonder how much Miriam actually worshiped Paul. Towards the end Paul decides that Miriam never had any respect for him. In fact, she calls him a four-year old child. Part of Miriam's speech is prompted by the feelings of a scorned lover, but it seems to stay with Paul. He asks Clara or his mother (I forget which) whether he lacks maturity. Both Miriam and Paul think there is some truth behind this; and, if this is true, then Paul is the one exhibiting immaturity. Do any of you think that Paul was really the mature object of Miriam's worship that he believed himself to be early in the novel?

I happen to think that Paul is just a blockhead. Lawrence's more complex interpretation of the protagonist probably made the novel more interesting, though.

[Janine]

I wonder how much Miriam actually worshiped Paul. Towards the end Paul decides that Miriam never had any respect for him. In fact, she calls him a four-year old child. Part of Miriam's speech is prompted by the feelings of a scorned lover, but it seems to stay with Paul. He asks Clara or his mother (I forget which) whether he lacks maturity. Both Miriam and Paul think there is some truth behind this; and, if this is true, then Paul is the one exhibiting immaturity. Do any of you think that Paul was really the mature object of Miriam's worship that he believed himself to be early in the novel?

I happen to think that Paul is just a blockhead. Lawrence's more complex interpretation of the protagonist probably made the novel more interesting, though.

Quark, wish I knew how to answer your post. I have not gotten to the end yet, although I read the book before (a few years back), my memory is not that keen. I don't recall the part you are referring to. I do know, that after the breakup, whatever the two say about each other, might just be a tad slanted and due to their reactions to each other and their hurt feelings. I do feel in many scenes as though she worships him in some mystical way, at least up to the half-way point in the novel - which is about where I am in my second reading. I will try and find some exact quotes. Well, I think both are exhibiting imaturity at times in their relationship. They are young and inexperienced - both of them. What do they know of the world anyway? Then Clara comes along and she is more worldly and in her way leads Paul, something Miriam was not equipped to do emotionally or physically. I don't think anyone is to blame here.

Quark, I am curious - what exactly is your definition of a 'blockhead' ? How do you mean that Lawrence's more complex interpretation of Paul makes the novel more interesting? I don't really get your drift here. The story is about Paul and I don't feel he is a 'blockhead' at all, unless I don't understand the term. He might be confused and unable to disengage himself from his mother's control, but I don't know if in labeling him such, is at all fair or accurate. It is his complexity that makes the novel what it is.

[amalia1985]

Janine, thank you so much for the beautiful photo.

I agree on everything you said, and I really think that "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is such a moving story! You are aslo right regarding our professor. She has a Phd in English Literature, and her final project was concerned with Lawrence's views on Nature and Society.

[Janine]

Janine, thank you so much for the beautiful photo.

I agree on everything you said, and I really think that "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is such a moving story! You are aslo right regarding our professor. She has a Phd in English Literature, and her final project was concerned with Lawrence's views on Nature and Society.

amalia, glad you liked the photos. I love floral photos myself. I was thinking that once I bought those snowdrops for my garden but then I did not care for them as I should and eventually they died off. They were pretty though. Wild roses look different than cultivated ones but they have their own beauty. It is fun to post some photos from time to time in these threads - makes them a little more interesting I think.

I look forward to re-reading the story, "The Virgin and the Gypsy" - when did you finish reading it? I'm glad you liked it so much.

That is wonderful about your professor - her studies sounded quite interesting. How lucky you were having a professor interested in Lawrence. Virgil let me read his thesis on Lawrence awhile back. It is on the aspects of Transfiguration in L's work...quite interesting. You might him about it. It deals with L's later works.

[amalia1985]

Oh, let me see...I've finished reading "The Virgin and the Gypsy" this August. Lawrence's selected short stories was one of the books I took on vacations with me.

My professor is the best I had in my four-year course in university. I am still in touch with her as we are working together, planning my PhD, and I feel privileged for meeting her. Professor like her bring about any university's significance.

[Janine]

Oh, let me see...I've finished reading "The Virgin and the Gypsy" this August. Lawrence's selected short stories was one of the books I took on vacations with me.

My professor is the best I had in my four-year course in university. I am still in touch with her as we are working together, planning my PhD, and I feel privileged for meeting her. Professor like her bring about any university's significance.

amalia, is "The Virgin and the Gypsy" in the short stories? I thought it was longer and more of a novelette. I can't seem to find it in my three short story books. I have another book with "St. Mawr" and "The Man Who Died", but now I have a feeling I don't have the "V an G". Maybe it is on this site. I will go and see now.

Your professor sounds wonderful. I wish I could met her. It is great that she is keeping in touch with you and helping your plan your PhD. I am friends with my high-school literature teacher, can you believe it? She retired a number of years back and lives in my town and is very active in the town and it's history, etc. I see her once in awhile. She was one of my best teachers, but now we often disagree about authors. I don't even think she likes Lawrence at all. She likes American literature, better than English. But I still like her as a friend; she is a nice lady.

You are so privileged to have such a fine teacher and sharing the appreciation of the same literature. Teachers like her do make a difference and are so significant in one's life, never to be forgotten.