Ethical dilemma

[Virgil]

No you cannot get all nutrients from strictly vegtables:

Can The Body Convert Omega-6 Fatty Acids Into Omega-3 Fatty Acids As It Needs?

Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids are polyunsaturated fats of which two, linolenic (an omega-3) and linoleic (an omega 6), are essential to human life and must be obtained from food as the body cannot synthesise them. Although very small amounts of omega 3 linolenic acid are found in whole grains and dark green leafy vegetables, it is principally found in animal foods (especially fish and eggs), as well as flax seed oil. Omega 6 linoleic acid is mostly found in vegetables, but small amounts are present in certain animal fats.

To assuage vegans who fear they may not get enough omega 3 linolenic acid, some vegetarian sources assert that the body can simply convert excess omega 6 linoleic acid into omega 3 linolenic acid, and other omega 3 fatty acids such as EPA and DHA, two fatty acids intimately involved in the health of the brain and immune system.

Renowned lipid biochemist Dr Mary Enig, of the University of Maryland, and other authorities have shown that the body cannot change the omega number of fatty acids.

The body can change the fatty acid's degree of saturation and also its molecular length, but not its omega number (12). In other words, omega 6 fatty acids can only be converted into other omega 6 fatty acids; omega 3s only into other omega 3s.

Again, I have seen the results of this misinformation in my practice. I've had several patients of Northern European descent with severe mental and immune problems caused by a lack of EPA and DHA, two omega-3 fatty acids not found in plant foods (DHA is found in small amounts in some algae). People native to warmer climates in the world can manufacture these fatty acids from other omega-3s, but those of Northern European or Innuit descent cannot. Since their ancestors ate so much EPA- and DHA-rich fish, their bodies eventually lost the ability to manufacture these fatty acids (13). For these people, vegetarianism is impossible; they must consume either eggs or fish in order to survive.

There is also a very real danger from consuming too many omega-6 fatty acids, principally found in vegetables. The body requires both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids. However, when the body's cells are overloaded with omega-6s, their ability to utilise the omega-3 is inhibited (14).

Chronically low levels of omega-3 fatty acids are associated with higher cancer rates and immune dysfunction. Excessive levels of omega-6 fatty acids are also strongly correlated with a high incidence of cardiovascular disease (as is excessive consumption of refined sugar and trans-fatty acids) [15].

http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vege...atty-acids.htm

[bazarov]

People become vegetarians for a wide variety or reasons. If your not a vegetarian why are you speaking for them?

I am not attacking them or defending them, it's their choice what will they eat. I am just explaining you difference between vegans and vegetarians and had answered on your question. I see that there are many vegetarians on this forum, they don't need me to speak for them.

[bazarov]

Baz i think you mean that if a cow is under milked/ or not milked at all it could die.
So see vegetarians, its good to drink milk.

Sorry, I haven't see your post till now! Yes, that's exactly what I meant. New word in my dictionary : milked

[Whifflingpin]

"New word in my dictionary : milked "
That good, now remember - if you water a cow you put water in - if you milk a cow you take milk out. (Of course, if you water a plant, you pour water on it, and if you milk your tea you put milk in it - simple)

[papayahed]

I don't have problems with animals, I eat everything! But I find vegetarianism totally hipocritic. Vegans OK, I can find some logic and disagree with it but I don't see any sense in vegetarianism.

I am not attacking them or defending them, it's their choice what will they eat. I am just explaining you difference between vegans and vegetarians and had answered on your question. I see that there are many vegetarians on this forum, they don't need me to speak for them.

That could be seen as an attack.

[papayahed]

People native to warmer climates in the world can manufacture these fatty acids from other omega-3s, but those of Northern European or Innuit descent cannot........Since their ancestors ate so much EPA- and DHA-rich fish, their bodies eventually lost the ability to manufacture these fatty acids (13). For these people, vegetarianism is impossible; they must consume either eggs or fish in order to survive.

So based on the fact that Northern European Inuits can't manufacture DHA and EPA , which they originally had (proving that vegetarianism isn't unnatural), no one should follow a vegetarian diet?

Flax seed oil is 6 times richer in omega 3 then any fish oil and most people can convert omega 3 to the necessary nutirnets.

Your links are written by a doctor that sells fish oil on his website, sounds like he has an agenda. I think I'll stick with the USDA.

[bazarov]

That could be seen as an attack.

I am sorry, I just said my opinion, didn't refer to anyone or anything. I can respect their opinion without agreeing with them.

[papayahed]

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/v...ian_foods.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59117.php

http://globalphilosophy.blogspot.com...rian-diet.html


From WHF website (vegetarianism isn't a new fad):

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet&dbid=6 :

Throughout human history, advocates of vegetarianism have employed moral and spiritual arguments to express their disdain for eating the flesh of animals. Ancient writers such as Ovid and Plutarch deplored the killing of innocent creatures for food. Plutarch stated: "I am astonished to think what appetite first induced man to taste of a dead carcass or what motive could suggest the notion of nourishing himself with the flesh of animals which he saw, just before, bleating, bellowing, walking, and looking about them." The Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who lived towards the end of the 6th century BC, argued that the flesh of beasts contaminated and brutalized the soul. In recognition of Pythagoras' commitment, vegetarians were known as Pythagoreans until the mid-19th century. Other writers have associated vegetarianism with spiritual enlightenment. According to the 17th century English vegetarian Thomas Tryon, "...by thoroughly cleansing the outward court of terrestrial nature, it opens the windows of the inward senses of the soul." (Whorton, 1994) For these reasons, a variety of religions, including Brahminism, Buddhism, Hinduism and the Seventh Day Adventists encourage followers to abstain from eating meat.

After all this research I'd be a convert for sure if cheeseburgers weren't so darn tasty.

[TheFifthElement]

Even better, cow could die without being out-milked( I really don't know how to say it on English ).

A cow wouldn't die if it wasn't milked, it is natural for the milk to stop if there is no external simulus to keep the milk producing i.e. a calf or a milking machine. Cows don't die if their calf does, they just stop producing milk - just as women do once they cease breastfeeding.

The process of continued milking of cows is unnatural. That being said, if you examine in any kind of detail what happens to result in the food we eat you wouldn't eat at all. Everyone has lines they won't cross, for some people it's eating meat, for others it's all animal products (as in vegans), for others it's just one thing or another, for example I won't eat oysters, but have no qualms eating meat or drinking milk. Chocolate contains traces of insect matter (due to infestation issues with cocoa), and in some countries they eat insects as a treat or delicacy. What you eat is a matter of personal choice, simple as that, however, if you make such choices it's best to ensure those choices are fully informed.

[Virgil]

So based on the fact that Northern European Inuits can't manufacture DHA and EPA , which they originally had (proving that vegetarianism isn't unnatural), no one should follow a vegetarian diet?

Flax seed oil is 6 times richer in omega 3 then any fish oil and most people can convert omega 3 to the necessary nutirnets.

Your links are written by a doctor that sells fish oil on his website, sounds like he has an agenda. I think I'll stick with the USDA.

As you wish. USDA have changed their policy numerous times, as recently as one or two years ago. If they were always correct they would not need to change. How many times in my life time have they changed their opinion on salt?

I maintain the human body is designed for a reason to digest meat. We are carniverous animals. Can anyone name a few world class athletes that are vegetarians? Can anyone show me any data that vegetarians live longer?

From an Oxford site, basically sympathetic to vegetarianism:

A recent re-analysis of mortality data from the two British studies found no differences in overall death rates between vegetarian and non-vegetarian participants. The researchers concluded that the low mortality of British vegetarians compared with the general population "may be attributed to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as a low prevalence of smoking and a generally high socio-economic status, or to aspects of the diet other than the avoidance of meat and fish".

A more positive outcome for vegetarians was found in a recent analysis of data from the Adventist Health Study which predicted life expectancy in Seventh-day Adventists following different behaviour patterns. The researchers found that a combination of different lifestyle choices could influence life expectancy by as much as 10 years. Among the lifestyle choices investigated, a vegetarian diet was estimated to confer an extra 1½ to 2 years of life. The researchers concluded that "the life expectancies of California Adventist men and women are higher than those of any other well-described natural population" at 78.5 years for men and 82.3 years for women. The estimated life expectancies of vegetarian California Adventists were 80.2 years for men and 84.8 years for women. Other beneficial lifestyle choices included high nut consumption and a high level of exercise.

In conclusion

vegetarians have low mortality compared with the general population
much of this benefit is attributable to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as the avoidance of smoking and a high socio-economic status
vegetarians have similar mortality to comparable non-vegetarians, although a vegetarian diet may confer an additional 1-2 years of life (at least among US Adventists).
Of course, life expectancy is not the only measure of health status, and other studies have suggested that vegetarians may enjoy a number of health benefits including being generally slimmer and having lower blood cholesterol levels than non-vegetarians.

So, should you be a vegetarian for health reasons? When asked this question, the Nobel-prize winning author Isaac Bashevis Singer replied: "Yes, for the health of the chicken! "

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html

The article mentions the California Adventist study that shows slightly longer life expectacy for vegetarians. That is the only group of vegetarian people that have demonstrated longer life expectacy, and as the article I posted earlier suggests that if its only for one group there are probably other factors which are being masked.

[papayahed]

Can anyone name a few world class athletes that are vegetarians?

It's not all atheletes, but here ya go:

http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm :

Albert Schweitzer Humanitarian vegetarian Bio
Albert Einstein scientist vegetarian Bio
Andreas Cahling Mr.International Bodybuilder vegetarian
Andrew Reynolds pro skateboarder vegetarian
Anthony Peeler Minnesota Timberwolves vegetarian
Benjamin Franklin scientist vegetarian
Benjamin Spock Medical Doctor vegan Bio
Bill Pearl Bodybuilder vegetarian
Bill Manetti powerlifting champion vegetarian
Bille Jean King Tennis champion vegetarian
Brad Staba pro skateboarder vegetarian
Brendan Brazier ironman triathlete vegan
Brian Anderson pro skateboarder vegetarian Bio
Brian Sumner pro skateboarder vegetarian
Captain & Tennille Musical duo vegetarian Bio
Carl Lewis Olympic Track Star vegan
Charles Darwin British naturalist vegetarian
Chris Lambert pro skateboarder vegetarian
Clara Barton American Red Cross vegetarian Bio
Debbie Lawrence 5k record holder vegetarian
Desmond Howard Washington Redskins vegetarian
Dick Gregory runner fruitarian
Ed Templeton pro skateboarder vegan Bio
Edwin Moses Olympic champion vegetarian
Epicurus Philosopher vegetarian
Forest Kirby pro skateboarder vegetarian
Geoff Rowley pro skateboarder vegan
George Bernard Shaw Playwright vegetarian
H.G. Wells British author vegetarian Bio
Hank Aaron Baseball player vegetarian
Henry Ford ford motor company vegetarian
Henry David Thoreau Author vegetarian
Jamie Thomas pro skateboarder vegan Bio
Jen O'Brien pro skateboarder vegetarian
Jim Kaat baseball player vegetarian
Joe Namath football player vegetarian
John Wesley founder Methodist church vegetarian
John Salley Toronto Raptors vegetarian
Killer Kowalski Wrestler vegetarian
Laban Pheidas proskater vegetarian
Lawrence Phillips Football player(49ers) vegetarian
Lenny Kravitz Musician vegetarian
Leo Tolstoy Russian writer vegetarian
Leonardo da Vinci artist vegetarian Bio
Leroy Burrell Olympic champion vegetarian
Lucy Stephens tri-athlete vegan
Mahavira . Jain Religion vegetarian
Martina Navratilova tennis player vegan
Mary Tyler Moore Actress vegetarian Bio
Matt Field pro skateboarder vegetarian
Mike Manzoori pro skateboarder vegetarian
Mohandas Ghandi humanitarian vegan
Moses Itkonen pro skateboarder vegan
Murray Rose Olympic swimmer vegetarian
Pat Reeves power lifter vegan
Peter Burwash Tennis champion vegan
Plutarch Philosopher vegetarian
Pythagoras of Samos Greek Philosopher vegetarian
Rick Mc Crank pro skateboarder vegetarian
Robert Parnish center(bulls) vegetarian
Robert Cheeke Amateur Bodybuilder vegan
Romy Korz Ballerina vegetarian
Ruth Heidrich 3 time Ironman vegan
Sally Eastall Marathon runner vegan
Sergei Trudnowski Pro skateboarder vegan
Sir Isaac Newton Scientist vegetarian Bio
St. Frances of Assisi saint vegetarian
Stan Price world record bench press vegetarian
Steve Martin Comedian/actor vegetarian Bio
Steve Berra proskater vegetarian
Surya Bonaly French figure skater vegetarian
Susan B. Anthony womens suffrage vegetarian Bio
Sy Sperling Hair club for men vegetarian
Terry "Geezer" Butler Musician vegetarian
Tony LaRussa Baseball Manager vegetarian
Tonya Kay Professional Dancer vegan
Vincent Van Gogh Painter vegetarian Bio

I've found many valid links to valid studies showing the benefits of a vegetarian diet, so now the USDA isn't a valid source? What about the 5 others I provided?

Your article simply states that the life expectancy isn't much different then that for non vegetarians but why is that even an issue, the article also goes on to say that vegetarians have lower colesterol and are slimmer are you just going to ignore that part?

[Koa]

I maintain the human body is designed for a reason to digest meat. We are carniverous animals.

To be picky, we are omnivorous no? Carnivorous (as I believe the spelling is) would mean we only eat meat...

And I agree with those who say it's a matter of choice which lines you won't cross and I don't see the point in convincing others that eating/not eating meat is wrong. I sometimes feel sorry for a few seconds about the animals when I eat meat, but it would be such a huge effort for me not to eat any meat (let alone all the other stuff vegans don't eat), that it'd be easier to kill me. While I believe that for most veggies that is not a big effort (and I won't stop mentioning those who just don't like meat and become veggies because it's more fashionable to say that than to argue with your mum cos you won't eat your steak).

I've had a friend over for a few days and he's a veggie, we went out to eat a couple of times and choosing the place was almost easier than with my non-veggie friends... It wasn't that hard to plan our meals, but he thankfully respected the fact that I was having meat. I seriously can't help it...

As for the original dilemma, well as it has been said it's your choice, either become vegan or eat the eggs.

I've even seen "vegetarians" eating fish When people are serious...

[Virgil]

It's not all atheletes, but here ya go:

http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm :




I've found many valid links to valid studies showing the benefits of a vegetarian diet, so now the USDA isn't a valid source? What about the 5 others I provided?

Your article simply states that the life expectancy isn't much different then that for non vegetarians but why is that even an issue, the article also goes on to say that vegetarians have lower colesterol and are slimmer are you just going to ignore that part?

Hahaha, ok you made a good point. Actually while I was at the gym just about an hour ago it dawned on me. If there is no difference in life expectancy then while it may not be healthier to be a vegetarian it can't be worse. So I retract it. I guess it's about the same. So while I don't think there are net health benefits I guess its not as big a detriment as I percieved. But I still think it's unnatural. Humans were designed to eat meat.

[Bakiryu]

Humans were designed to eat meat.

But meat is so gross-tasting too I'd rather have a good salad.

[BulletproofDork]

But meat is so gross-tasting too I'd rather have a good salad.

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


God did say that animals were made for man's own use, but meat is so . . . bleh!



Chocolate is much better.