Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

Virgil[/B] that is true about Mary Magdaline being represented by the red rose (at least I think it has to be 'red', but not sure about that fact, actually. Thanks for the rest of that research on the significance of roses.

Mary Magdeline? I didn't read all the way down. I was looking for confirmation of Virgin Mary.

The rose has been a symbol in religious writing and iconography since the early Middle Ages. The red rose represents the blood of Christ and the martyrs, but the most common association of the rose is with the Virgin Mary

It makes more sense to be associated with Virgin Mary.

[Janine]

Mary Magdeline? I didn't read all the way down. I was looking for confirmation of Virgin Mary.


It makes more sense to be associated with Virgin Mary.

I don't know for sure, but from my earlier research I did after reading the DaVinci Code and seeing the film it seems that it was Mary Magdeline who was assosiated with the symbol of the rose. I could be wrong. I will go look her up on Google or Wikipedia and see if it mentions it. It also ties in with the Knight's Templer. I believe they used the symbol. The author of the book was trying to tie in the two and the crusades and search for the Holy Grail.

Why does it make more sense to be associated with the Virgin Mary? Do you mean in the sense of this story S&L and Miriam's view of herself?


Here are somethings I have come up with. One is that both the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdeline are both associated with the rose.
I think the Virgin Mary is the red rose.
I found this statement online in Wikipedia:
"According to some Biblical legends, the original rose growing in the Garden of Eden was white, but turned red as it blushed with shame upon Adam and Eve's fall from grace."

And looking further into it I found this writing about Scotland in reference to Jesus and Mary Magdeline possibly having a bloodline which was called the Rose line:

http://www.theroseline.co.uk/

After reading this curious article you should click on Rose line - it is to the left in the menu and you can read about that concept. It all is quite interesting.


Here is another article that speaks of the Crusades and the blood-line of Christ and his (possible) intimate association with Mary Magdeline. http://www.tribwatch.com/roslin.htm

This was from another site online, called "The Truth about DaVinci Code:

Mary Magdalene
According to the New Testament, Mary Magdalene was a disciple of Jesus from whom he cast "seven demons"; she followed him throughout his ministry, witnessed the crucifixion, and, with two other female disciples, discovered the empty tomb. Mary was probably from Magdala, a village on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee.

The Da Vinci Code alleges that the New Testament excludes an important fact: ‘‘The marriage of Jesus and Mary Magdalene is part of the historical record’’ (245). There is no evidence in any first-century record that implies a sexual or marital relationship between Jesus and Mary Mag­dalene. Additionally, even if Jesus had married—again, a proposition for which there is no reliable evidence—it wouldn’t be destructive to Chris­tian faith (as Dan Brown implies), for the Scriptures neither affirm nor deny that Jesus was married.

The Da Vinci Code notes that Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute: ‘‘That unfortunate misconception is the legacy of a smear campaign launched by the early church. The church needed to defame Mary Mag­dalene to cover up her dangerous secret [i.e., Mary’s role as the spouse of Jesus]’’ (244).

There is no biblical evidence that she was a prostitute. Jesus cast seven demons out of Mary (Luke 8:2), but there is no biblical data to suggest she was sexually immoral. At the same time, there is also no evidence to suggest that anyone instituted a ‘‘smear campaign’’ to discredit her. A tradition arose in the third and fourth centuries that she was the sinful woman mentioned in Luke 7:36–50 and, perhaps, the woman caught in adultery in John 7:53–8:11; in 591, Pope Gregory I included this teaching in a sermon. Although such identifications were probably mistaken, they are far from a slander crusade launched to hide a dangerous secret.

So whether you buy into or believe any of this lore or these ideas is insignificant, just the fact that is shows a close association with the 'rose' to both woman - Mary Magdeline and the Virgin Mary. I think, in L's case he would have known about the bible, and the possibity of the significance of the rose and the rose line, as well. Also, online you can read about the 'rose line' which is quite interesting and is the 0 degree Meridium on the globe. I personally think it is interesting that the rose, especially the red rose would relate so to a bloodline and in Lawrence's case often one does see him write of blood related to the red rose....strange, isn't it? And what about L's blood philosophy. I might be going off on a tangent but all this stuff got me thinking in this direction - probably from reading his novel "The Plumed Serpent" which I completed recently. Also, interesting to me is the fact that Lawrence wrote "The Man who Died", about Christ if he were human and had not died on the cross.

[Virgil]

Why does it make more sense to be associated with the Virgin Mary? Do you mean in the sense of this story S&L and Miriam's view of herself?

Yes, of course.

Here are somethings I have come up with. One is that both the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdeline are both associated with the rose.

Yes, that could be but how does Mary Magdeline associated with Miriam?

I think the Virgin Mary is the red rose.
I found this statement online in Wikipedia:
"According to some Biblical legends, the original rose growing in the Garden of Eden was white, but turned red as it blushed with shame upon Adam and Eve's fall from grace."

Hey that is interesting. I could see how that would really interest Lawrence but I don't see how it fits with this novel.

And looking further into it I found this writing about Scotland in reference to Jesus and Mary Magdeline possibly having a bloodline which was called the Rose line:

http://www.theroseline.co.uk/

After reading this curious article you should click on Rose line - it is to the left in the menu and you can read about that concept. It all is quite interesting

Here is another article that speaks of the Crusades and the blood-line of Christ and his (possible) intimate association with Mary Magdeline. http://www.tribwatch.com/roslin.htm.

This was from another site online, called "The Truth about DaVinci Code:

How does any of this fit with S&L?

So whether you buy into or believe any of this lore or these ideas is insignificant, just the fact that is shows a close association with the 'rose' to both woman - Mary Magdeline and the Virgin Mary. I think, in L's case he would have known about the bible, and the possibity of the significance of the rose and the rose line, as well. Also, online you can read about the 'rose line' which is quite interesting and is the 0 degree Meridium on the globe. I personally think it is interesting that the rose, especially the red rose would relate so to a bloodline and in Lawrence's case often one does see him write of blood related to the red rose....strange, isn't it? And what about L's blood philosophy. I might be going off on a tangent but all this stuff got me thinking in this direction - probably from reading his novel "The Plumed Serpent" which I completed recently. Also, interesting to me is the fact that Lawrence wrote "The Man who Died", about Christ if he were human and had not died on the cross.

Yes interesting stuff. Christian and biblical symbols and ideas interested him and he used them for his ideas which are quite different than the original.

[Janine]

Virgil, I was just trying to fill you in on the concepts and the historical backgrounds or the theories, behind the rose references and what it might signify on a deeper level. It does not really have anything directly to do with S&L, but these flower references and the religious references in L's text seem to indicate a lot going on beneath the surface of L's complex mind. What has he been impying, suggesting here?

Did you read my other longer post, with direct quotes from the book and underlined the key words? I thought we could talk more about certain parts of that....like the way Miriam viewed her closeness to Paul and how his being there, when viewing the roses or anything else that thrilled her in nature, made it real and significant for her.

The swing scene was also quite revealing of how timid Miriam is in contrast to the free way Paul is. Any thoughts on that part of the book, anyone?

[Virgil]

Virgil, I was just trying to fill you in on the concepts and the historical backgrounds or the theories, behind the rose references and what it might signify on a deeper level. It does not really have anything directly to do with S&L, but these flower references and the religious references in L's text seem to indicate a lot going on beneath the surface of L's complex mind. What has he been impying, suggesting here?

Did you read my other longer post, with direct quotes from the book and underlined the key words? I thought we could talk more about certain parts of that....like the way Miriam viewed her closeness to Paul and how his being there, when viewing the roses or anything else that thrilled her in nature, made it real and significant for her.

Oh briefly. I meant to go back to it. Sorry. I felt the impulse to comment on the MAry Magdeline when I saw her mentioned. I will go back and read it, probably tomorrow. I'm brain dead at this point of the evening.

[amalia1985]

I don't know about the potentiality of a connection between Mary Magdalene and Lawrence's Miriam, but I would not find the possibility of the rose being related both to Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary. Both women were very close to Jesus and I believe they could be connected with the rose and its symbolisms, different for each woman, but I don't think this has much to do with Lawrence's novel.

Janine, you have posted quite a stunning material here. I will read it and come back.

[amalia1985]

The extremely interesting passage that you posted, Janine, gave me many opportunities to contemplate on the issues relevant here, both regarding Miriam and Paul’s relationship and the way Lawrence chooses to describe it.

“…till he had seen it…” Miriam seems to be so much in love with Paul that she literally views the world through his eyes.
“…communion together…” A sexual connotation? I would say- as we have all stated previously- that here, we talk about spirituality. Miriam views the affair as something sacred, superior, and spiritual, as if it was The Holy Communion for her.
“sky, earth, pearl”: Again-as we have already seen in his poems- Nature plays a vital role for Lawrence. I would dare to add that in university, in various subjects- from poetry to theater- we had been told that “pines” usually carry a sexual connection. Notice that Miriam “gazes rather frightened”, I think I could venture to relate these two points of the passage.

We have many touching, vivid images, where the reader can actually “see” and “feel” the sparkling. Ivory can be another reference to purity, and the importance of it for Miriam.

Janine, I agree with you. The part where Paul mentions the butterflies is very poignant. For Miriam, purity and virginity are treasures. Paul is a treasure to her, as well, so she wants to share every little thing that she loves with him, as you’ve already said. But, I think that Paul does not want her “holy”, and this spirituality of hers probably, unsettles him.

I would put much emphasis on Miriam’s dark eyes, a very important feature. Many heroines- not only of Lawrence, but of the majority of authors- attract attention with their dark eyes, e. g. Anna Karenina or Collin’s “Woman in White”. Perhaps, it is a symbol of mystery and warmth. I don’t think it has much to do with purity, but even if we take daily experiences in our mind, the dark eyes of a man or a woman is always something that attracts attention.

“She might have been one of the women who went with Mary when Jesus was dead.” A very important statement, I would say. I believe it as another indication of Miriam’s spiritual love, “freed” from the aspirations of a carnal relationship, like Mary Magdalene’s love for Jesus, perhaps? Quite controversial for many, but a possibility we have to keep in mind, regarding Lawrence’s use of the example. Can it be accidental? I wouldn’t think so.

Janine, I would say that the sun can be a reference to the kind of love Paul would want to have. Not spiritual, but warm. Perhaps, sun stands for passion? Both Paul and Miriam love Nature immensely, they are “children” of it, but each one gives it a different dimension. Life and Nature are closely connected. Paul loves life, and I agree with you, Janine, regarding the image of “the dead crust”.

[Virgil]

The extremely interesting passage that you posted, Janine, gave me many opportunities to contemplate on the issues relevant here, both regarding Miriam and Paul’s relationship and the way Lawrence chooses to describe it.

“…till he had seen it…” Miriam seems to be so much in love with Paul that she literally views the world through his eyes.
“…communion together…” A sexual connotation? I would say- as we have all stated previously- that here, we talk about spirituality. Miriam views the affair as something sacred, superior, and spiritual, as if it was The Holy Communion for her.
“sky, earth, pearl”: Again-as we have already seen in his poems- Nature plays a vital role for Lawrence. I would dare to add that in university, in various subjects- from poetry to theater- we had been told that “pines” usually carry a sexual connection. Notice that Miriam “gazes rather frightened”, I think I could venture to relate these two points of the passage.

We have many touching, vivid images, where the reader can actually “see” and “feel” the sparkling. Ivory can be another reference to purity, and the importance of it for Miriam.

Janine, I agree with you. The part where Paul mentions the butterflies is very poignant. For Miriam, purity and virginity are treasures. Paul is a treasure to her, as well, so she wants to share every little thing that she loves with him, as you’ve already said. But, I think that Paul does not want her “holy”, and this spirituality of hers probably, unsettles him.

I would put much emphasis on Miriam’s dark eyes, a very important feature. Many heroines- not only of Lawrence, but of the majority of authors- attract attention with their dark eyes, e. g. Anna Karenina or Collin’s “Woman in White”. Perhaps, it is a symbol of mystery and warmth. I don’t think it has much to do with purity, but even if we take daily experiences in our mind, the dark eyes of a man or a woman is always something that attracts attention.

“She might have been one of the women who went with Mary when Jesus was dead.” A very important statement, I would say. I believe it as another indication of Miriam’s spiritual love, “freed” from the aspirations of a carnal relationship, like Mary Magdalene’s love for Jesus, perhaps? Quite controversial for many, but a possibility we have to keep in mind, regarding Lawrence’s use of the example. Can it be accidental? I wouldn’t think so.

Janine, I would say that the sun can be a reference to the kind of love Paul would want to have. Not spiritual, but warm. Perhaps, sun stands for passion? Both Paul and Miriam love Nature immensely, they are “children” of it, but each one gives it a different dimension. Life and Nature are closely connected. Paul loves life, and I agree with you, Janine, regarding the image of “the dead crust”.

Exellent post Amalia! I think we were all approximating what you wrote, but I think you've hit it perefectly.

[amalia1985]

Virgil, thank you so much for your very very kind words, but I must say that my post would be nothing without all your precious comments which me food for thought. But for all of you, my ideas would be non-existent, really.

[Janine]

Amalia, you are too modest. You pick up on a lot of sensitive ideas here and I think we are thinking mostly alike on these points which you have so well layed out and illustrated for us. Your post is excellent, indeed! *clap clap*. I am proud of you. Now you are thinking and these are your thoughts added to mine - very good.

I wanted to add something about Miriam. Just a single thought. Did you notice often in the text she is mentioned as hanging back from the crowd, (such as when they all take an excrusion to that famous rock formation), she is then quiet and all to herself - contained, withdrawn, shy? She is jealous in many ways of Paul's attention to the others and she does not want to share him at all. I can easily see how their relationship would not work out, in the long-run. Even in moments of intense sharing she wants only he to be present within her own little religious realm. She is very possessive this way of Paul, I think. It is funny, because by contrast, Lawrence did marry a woman who was quite socialble and he also could be so as they traveled to various contries. He made many many friends; both of them did. I think that Miriam (Jesse) wanted to contain Lawrence and tie him down and he would not have had the freedom he desired in his life if he stayed with this woman.

As to the trees - that is quite interesting. At one point in the text Paul mentions the trees being like columns of fire - do you recall that? Glowing from the setting sun, I believe. Interesting, because later in his books, he sees people as columns of fire or reflections of the sun. Virgil, should be able to present to you and explain Lawrence ideas of the sun and sun worship and the sun's significance. The book I just read "The Plumed Serpent" mentions the sun significantly many times over. It is a form of worship.

The eyes are also interesting to me - in one book I read of L's - "The Lost Girl" the man's eyes were mentioned often as being yellow, which at the time I found to be quite strange. I am still not completely sure of this meaning to Lawrence, except to say he mentions them as being animalistic or of the natural world. I do also recall in "The Fox" - an excellent tale - that the fox had the piercing glowing yellow eyes. Perhaps Miriam's dark eyes symbolise a deep mysterious spirituality. In the "Plumed Serpent" one main character is often mentioned with dark black 'blank' looking eyes. Eyes, in all aspects, seem to have fascinated our Lawrence since all his books mention them often....blue as well. I do think each colors had certain significance for L....perhaps symbolism.

From Shakespeare - 'Loves Labour's Lost' ~ Biron: "Behold the window of my heart, mine eye".

[Virgil]

As to the trees - that is quite interesting. At one point in the text Paul mentions the trees being like columns of fire - do you recall that? Glowing from the setting sun, I believe. Interesting, because later in his books, he sees people as columns of fire or reflections of the sun. Virgil, should be able to present to you and explain Lawrence ideas of the sun and sun worship and the sun's significance. The book I just read "The Plumed Serpent" mentions the sun significantly many times over. It is a form of worship.

I barely remember the columns of fire Janine, so I can't really comment. Wait, it does come back somewhat. Columns of fire in The Plumed Serpent are suggestive of (please excuse me here ) of penises. But certainly in the later Lawrence the sun is a source of strength, power, spirituality. May I suggest a short story for the Lawrence short story thread, a story call "Sun." It's set on a Mediterrainean island (can't remember either Greek or Italian) with a woman character who strips naked to absorb the sun and be rejuvinated. I think Manolia an Amalia would like it since it is set next to their home. It is one of the few Lawrence stories where the feamle character is complete charge of the action. But it shows lawrence's late ideas about the sun as a diety. I think it was written shortly after The Plumed Serpent and one can see how Lawrence had really become as cloase to a pagan as any modern person can.

The eyes are also interesting to me - in one book I read of L's - "The Lost Girl" the man's eyes were mentioned often as being yellow, which at the time I found to be quite strange. I am still not completely sure of this meaning to Lawrence, except to say he mentions them as being animalistic or of the natural world. I do also recall in "The Fox" - an excellent tale - that the fox had the piercing glowing yellow eyes. Perhaps Miriam's dark eyes symbolise a deep mysterious spirituality. In the "Plumed Serpent" one main character is often mentioned with dark black 'blank' looking eyes. Eyes, in all aspects, seem to have fascinated our Lawrence since all his books mention them often....blue as well. I do think each colors had certain significance for L....perhaps symbolism.

Janine, I think we had a similar discussion when we were discussing The Prussian Officer. There is some significance for Lawrence (especially here in his earlier writings) to nordic blue eyes and dark southern eyes. I have not been able to figure it out. I do think that a you are probably right about the dark eyes suggesting a spirituality.

[amalia1985]

Again, thank you so much, you made me blushed, and I am so privileged to have you to talk to, as you are so well-read and experienced, and I am too young and too shy, but I always try to think and express my thoughts as best as I can.

I have noticed Miriam being possessive in various parts of the novel, yes.My first thought was that this feeling does not quite come in terms with the spirituality she proclaims, but then again, I feel now that she was in love with Paul, so it would be justifiable for her to wish that she is the only one for him. After all, too much spirituality would make the affair somewhat "unearthly", if I can put it that way, and I think that Lawrence wanted the readers to "feel" that such a relationship can take place. You understand what I'm trying to say, otherwise I don't see the reason for her being so possessive.

[Janine]

I barely remember the columns of fire Janine, so I can't really comment. Wait, it does come back somewhat. Columns of fire in The Plumed Serpent are suggestive of (please excuse me here ) of penises. But certainly in the later Lawrence the sun is a source of strength, power, spirituality. May I suggest a short story for the Lawrence short story thread, a story call "Sun." It's set on a Mediterrainean island (can't remember either Greek or Italian) with a woman character who strips naked to absorb the sun and be rejuvinated. I think Manolia an Amalia would like it since it is set next to their home. It is one of the few Lawrence stories where the feamle character is complete charge of the action. But it shows lawrence's late ideas about the sun as a diety. I think it was written shortly after The Plumed Serpent and one can see how Lawrence had really become as cloase to a pagan as any modern person can.

You could have more gently used the word phallic as in phallic symbols. Instead you make poor amalia blush.

You know I don't know where I come up with these scenes in my head. I am sure I did not dream it and I read about this recently; of course now I can't relocate it in my book, as usual. I just need to mark it when I come across interesting passages like this one was about the trees glowing. I believe that Miriam and he were alone when it was observed and right away I did think of the columns of fire in PS. I think Paul refers to them as columns of fire or light. I will hunt though the book tonight to find it. My neck is hurting more again so I can't right now.
Yes, I would, for one, be very interested in reading that short story - let's do it next? Is it a short one? I hope so. I do recall hearing about it. I will look it up in my books tonight. Good suggestion, V.

Janine, I think we had a similar discussion when we were discussing The Prussian Officer. There is some significance for Lawrence (especially here in his earlier writings) to nordic blue eyes and dark southern eyes. I have not been able to figure it out. I do think that a you are probably right about the dark eyes suggesting a spirituality.

If I felt better and had the energy I would quote some passages about 'eyes' from PS and from "The Lost Girl". The mention of eyes is so prominent in both of those books. In WIL, yes, there was the blue Nordic eyes and the dark southern eyes. I well remember that.

amalia, I think that Miriam's possessiveness is a sign of her imaturity for one. She is young and may have grown out of that. I don't think though the relationship between Paul and Miriam would have worked out in the long-run. If Paul represents an image and the thoughts of Lawrence himself then he would never be satisfied rooted in the same place for long. This is what Miriam would have liked - to keep Paul all to herself and rooted. Also she wanted him to remain fitting her image of what she felt he was. She worshipped Paul and Paul wanted merely to be a man to her not a god.

[Virgil]

You could have more gently used the word phallic as in phallic symbols. Instead you make poor amalia blush.

You're right. I should have used phallic, but for some reason the word did not come to me. Sorry Amalia.

You know I don't know where I come up with these scenes in my head. I am sure I did not dream it and I read about this recently; of course now I can't relocate it in my book, as usual. I just need to mark it when I come across interesting passages like this one was about the trees glowing. I believe that Miriam and he were alone when it was observed and right away I did think of the columns of fire in PS. I think Paul refers to them as columns of fire or light. I will hunt though the book tonight to find it. My neck is hurting more again so I can't right now.

Your neck is still bothering you Janine? Oh I wish the pain would go away. Feel better.

Yes, I would, for one, be very interested in reading that short story - let's do it next? Is it a short one? I hope so. I do recall hearing aboutit. I will look it up in my books tonight. Good suggestion, V.

Not long at all. It's a good story. Found it online: http://www.geocities.com/andtherewas...rchive/Sun.htm

If I felt better and had the energy I would...

Don't worry. Try to rest your neck. Bengay might help.

[Janine]

You're right. I should have used phallic, but for some reason the word did not come to me. Sorry Amalia.

Yeah, really, V, you seem to be into referring to body parts lately - remember that other thread?

Your neck is still bothering you Janine? Oh I wish the pain would go away. Feel better.

Yeah it is; I wish it would go away, too! What is with this, anyway? I thought this afternoon it was getting better and now it's paining me again - have been watching a movie with a heating pad wrapped round my neck/ ear/back of my head. Looks pretty funny...ever try wrapping a heating pad around your neck? not easy/ At least I can't feel the pain that way. I was falling asleep and I don't want to yet, so I just drank some coffee and now the pain is better - they do put caffeine into pain killers...strange.

Not long at all. It's a good story. Found it online: http://www.geocities.com/andtherewas...rchive/Sun.htm

Oh good! I will try to read it, soon as this month's discussions are fully done. Why is no one else posting in there - did I kill the thread?

Don't worry. Try to rest your neck. Bengay might help.

Bengay stinks and makes my eyes burn. I tried Capsasian once (made from hot peppers) but it irritated my skin. Think I will stick to the heating pad.
Thanks for your concern, V! I am sure I will live

Hey, this might be more significant than my other dumb posts on the rose idea. I just found this online: symbolism of roses

White: innocence, purity, secrecy, friendship, reverence and humility

That would certainly fit the profile for Miriam, wouldn't it?

In the book "The White Peacock" there is an amazing scene in the woods with white snow-drops that is very reminescent of this passage with the white roses. I will type it up when I am feeling better. It is a lovely passage - one of my favorites.