Ethical dilemma

[cactus]

If you have to be really technical then plants are living things too. They eat, breathe, age and expire like every other living things.

Hope this doesn't put you off veggies as well.

Cactus

[papayahed]

There are two kind of you with strange perception on food:
1. vegetarians - people who don't it meat
2. vegans - people who don't eat any animal product-meat, eggs, milk, cheese, etc.

Avoiding eggs won't hurt your vegetarian reputation.

I thought vegetarians didn't eat animals and animal by products?

[bazarov]

I thought vegetarians didn't eat animals and animal by products?

Nope, only meat. Avoiding everything is vegans MV.

[papayahed]

Nope, only meat. Avoiding everything is vegans MV.

That doesn't make sense. The by products of "meat" contain the same hormones and what have you as the actual meat, and the animals are treated just as inhumanely so why would someone that claims to be a vegetarian eat the by products?

[CrazyDiamond]

Ive been vegetarian since I was six (I'm almost seventeen now - woot) and turned vegan when I was nine. It just depends. Vegetarian implies that you do not eat meat, whereas vegans do not eat/wear animal products. I.e. some vegetarians eat fish.

I think it's okay if it's Free Range eggs, though. *ponders*.

=]

[CrazyDiamond]

If you have to be really technical then plants are living things too. They eat, breathe, age and expire like every other living things.

Hope this doesn't put you off veggies as well.

Cactus

Plants don't suffer though. They are living to an extent. They have living cells etc, but they cannot feel. - Same reason some vegetarians eat fish.

[bazarov]

That doesn't make sense. The by products of "meat" contain the same hormones and what have you as the actual meat, and the animals are treated just as inhumanely so why would someone that claims to be a vegetarian eat the by products?

For eating meat, you have to kill cow. But for milk, you don't have to kill her. Even better, cow could die without being out-milked( I really don't know how to say it on English ). So vegetarians don't have problems with that.

I.e. some vegetarians eat fish.

In Western civilizations, fish is very often considered not to be a meat because of low amount of blood in her body. Fish is water animal so it's also considered to be clean animal, opposite of pigs, cows, etc. One of Christians principle is not to eat meat on Friday's; instead of it many of them are eating fish(in restaurants it's normally to have fish on Friday's menu.)

[Niamh]

Oh god not the plants have feelings thing again!

I'm sure plants think we dont have feelings when they observe us ever day. They probably see us as weird "plants" that do weird things ever day!
We dont truely understand plants, so it is not for us to decide whether or not they do have feelings etc, we should just assume that they do because we do, even though we have different Biological makeup. Animals are alive, Plants are alive, Animals feel pain so we should assume plants do to.

Personally i wouldnt want to cross and angry Venus fly trap!

lets leave it at that. This is after all a thread about whether or not Baki should eat eggs and dairy(if i'm not mistaken) not a discussion about plants and their biology etc.

[papayahed]

For eating meat, you have to kill cow. But for milk, you don't have to kill her. Even better, cow could die without being out-milked( I really don't know how to say it on English ). So vegetarians don't have problems with that.

But the milk would also contain hormones and diseases that the cow would have so if your a vegetarian for health reasons this defeats the purpose doesn't it?

If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?

[Niamh]

yes but the milk is pasturised to kill off all the bad bacterias etc.

Baz i think you mean that if a cow is under milked/ or not milked at all it could die.
So see vegetarians, its good to drink milk.

[bazarov]

But the milk would also contain hormones and diseases that the cow would have so if your a vegetarian for health reasons this defeats the purpose doesn't it?

No, meat and milk are passing through strict controls, no worry for your health.

If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?

Because your vegetarian, not vegan. If it's not meat, main purpose of killing animals; then it's OK; no matter of from where that milk is. That probably why people became vegans; higher level of animal lovers.



I don't have problems with animals, I eat everything! But I find vegetarianism totally hipocritic. Vegans OK, I can find some logic and disagree with it but I don't see any sense in vegetarianism.

[Virgil]

But the milk would also contain hormones and diseases that the cow would have so if your a vegetarian for health reasons this defeats the purpose doesn't it?

If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?

What about pesticides on fruits and vegetables? I'm not privy to any measured risks, but you can get paranoid over everything. For all i know eating an over abundance of fruits and vegetables may have a higher probablity of cancer. People are eating meat and drinking milk. I don't see why people are paranoid one way or the other.

I've said this on another similar thread. Human beings are designed to eat meat. Compare yourself to a sheep or a horse. We have the teeth for it, we have the digestive system for it. To be a vegetarian is unnatural. You are missing out on nutrients. I posted a web site on that thread that showed that vegetarians might actually have a shorter life span than one with a balanced diet. The health benefits of vegetarianism is specious. That is not to say we don't eat too much meat in the US and that more servings of fruits and vegetables would do us well. What I beleive tends to do us the most harm is the huge proportion of carbohydrates and sugars (breads, chocolate, cakes, and candy) that modern people eat. That level of carbs and sugars is unnatural. Plus our physical activity level is way less than it should be.

[papayahed]

No, meat and milk are passing through strict controls, no worry for your health.

Because your vegetarian, not vegan. If it's not meat, main purpose of killing animals; then it's OK; no matter of from where that milk is. That probably why people became vegans; higher level of animal lovers.

I don't have problems with animals, I eat everything! But I find vegetarianism totally hipocritic. Vegans OK, I can find some logic and disagree with it but I don't see any sense in vegetarianism.

People become vegetarians for a wide variety or reasons. If your not a vegetarian why are you speaking for them?

What about pesticides on fruits and vegetables? I'm not privy to any measured risks, but you can get paranoid over everything. For all i know eating an over abundance of fruits and vegetables may have a higher probablity of cancer. People are eating meat and drinking milk. I don't see why people are paranoid one way or the other.

I've said this on another similar thread. Human beings are designed to eat meat. Compare yourself to a sheep or a horse. We have the teeth for it, we have the digestive system for it. To be a vegetarian is unnatural. You are missing out on nutrients. I posted a web site on that thread that showed that vegetarians might actually have a shorter life span than one with a balanced diet. The health benefits of vegetarianism is specious. That is not to say we don't eat too much meat in the US and that more servings of fruits and vegetables would do us well. What I beleive tends to do us the most harm is the huge proportion of carbohydrates and sugars (breads, chocolate, cakes, and candy) that modern people eat. That level of carbs and sugars is unnatural. Plus our physical activity level is way less than it should be

I didn't really want to defend vegetarianism, but your statements are false. It is possible to get all the nutrients necessary from a plant based diet check out the USDA website it has a wealth of in formation relating to the vegetarian lifestyle. The health benefits are far from specious, there are countless studies done by reputable organizations that show the benefits of a plant based diet.

[Niamh]

She's right Virg you can. But you have to balance the food in your diet better.

[Virgil]

Listed as a myth:

Meat-Eaters Have Higher Rates of Heart And Kidney Disease, Cancer, Obesity and Osteoporosis Than Vegetarians

Such stupendous claims are hard to reconcile with historical and anthropological facts. All of the diseases mentioned are primarily 20th century occurrences, yet people have been eating meat and animal fat for thousands of years.

Further, there are several native peoples around the world (the Innu, Masai, Swiss, Greeks, etc.) whose traditional diets are very rich in animal products, but do not suffer from the above-mentioned maladies (18). This shows that other factors besides animal foods are at work in these diseases.

Several studies have supposedly shown that meat consumption is the cause of heart disease, cancer and bone loss, but such studies, honestly evaluated, show no such thing (19).

For example, the studies that supposedly proved that meat consumption among the Innuit caused high rates of osteoporosis, failed to note other dietary factors that contributed to bone loss (and to the other chronic diseases listed in myth #5). Things such as refined sugar consumption, alcoholism and a junk food consumption equalled more bone loss were not done with real meat but with fractionated protein powders (20).
Certainly, when protein is consumed in such an unnatural fashion, separated from the fat-soluble nutrients required for its absorption and assimilation, it will lead to problems. Because of this, the current use of fat-free protein powders as "food supplements", and low-fat or non-fat dairy products should be avoided. Trimming off visible fat from meats and removing duck and chicken skin before eating should also be discouraged.

Despite claims that studies have shown that meat consumption increased the risk for heart disease (21), their authors actually found the opposite. For example, in a 1984 analysis of a 1978 study of Seventh Day Adventists (who are largely vegetarian), H. A. Kahn concluded, "Although our results add some substantial facts to the diet-disease question, we recognize how remote they are from establishing, for example, that men who frequently eat meat or women who rarely eat salad are thereby shortening their lives" (21). A similar conclusion was reached by D.A. Snowden (21). Despite these startling admissions, the studies nevertheless concluded the exact opposite and urged people to reduce animal foods from their diets.

Further, both of these studies threw out certain dietary data that clearly showed no connection between eggs, cheese, whole milk, and fat attached to meat (all high fat and cholesterol foods) and heart disease. Statistician Dr. Russel Smith concluded, "In effect the Kahn [and Snowden] study is yet another example of negative results which are massaged and misinterpreted to support the politically correct assertions that vegetarians live longer lives." When all of the data are taken into account, the actual differences of heart disease between vegetarians and non-vegetarians in these studies was less than 1%: hardly a significant amount (22).

It should be noted here that Seventh Day Adventists are often studied in population analyses to prove that a vegetarian diet is healthier and is associated with a lower risk for heart disease and cancer (but see the last paragraph in this section). While it is true that most members of this Christian denomination do not eat meat, they also do not smoke, drink alcohol, or drink coffee or tea, all of which may be factors in promoting cancer and heart disease (23).

The Mormons are a religious group often overlooked in vegetarian studies. Although their Church urges moderation, Mormons do not abstain from meat. Mormonism's founder, Joseph Smith, declared a diet devoid of animal products as "not of God." As with the Adventists, Mormons avoid tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine. Despite being meat eaters, a study of Utah Mormons showed they had a 22% lower rate for cancer in general and a 34% lower mortality for colon cancer than the US average (24). A study of Puerto Ricans, who eat large amounts of fatty pork, nevertheless revealed very low rates of colon and breast cancer (25). Similar results can be adduced to demonstrate that meat consumption by itself does not correlate with cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, kidney disease, or obesity (26). Obviously, other factors are at work.

It is usually claimed that vegetarians have lower cancer rates than meat-eaters, but a 1994 study of California Seventh Day Adventists (who are largely vegetarian) showed that, while they did have lower rates of some cancers (e.g., breast), they had significantly higher rates of several others (brain, skin, uterine, cervical and ovarian)! (27)

http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vege...es-disease.htm
Numbers are references in the article.