D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Quark]

From Michael Black:

Not sure what to make of the phrase 'ice of fear' in her 'womb'. It was startling when I read it. I'm not eally sure what Michael Black is saying there.

Virgil, I found that phrase curious myself. I did not know what to make of it since later Lawrence refers to life as a flame or column of fire. I think I will have to read that part again in Black's commentary and try to understand, also, what he is getting at.

Hmmm...I just looked at that part again and I think one has to look at Elizabeth's complete thought:

I think that Elizabeth is discovering that the children are not a tie between her and her husband. She thinks to herself, "There were the children - but the children belonged to life. This dead man had nothing to do with them. He and she were only channels through which life had flowed to issue in the children". Elizabeth notices that her kids do nothing to unite her with her husband, and the child she's carrying turns to ice.

[Janine]

I think that Elizabeth is discovering that the children are not a tie between her and her husband. She thinks to herself, "There were the children - but the children belonged to life. This dead man had nothing to do with them. He and she were only channels through which life had flowed to issue in the children". Elizabeth notices that her kids do nothing to unite her with her husband, and the child she's carrying turns to ice.

Quark, that is an interesting thought on the idea of the children and the connection between the parents. It does seem the family is not so close but sort of alien from the mother. I never truly get the sense that Elizabeth is close or connected to her children. The ice reference is pretty extreme, and brave or brazen of Lawrence to refer to the unborn child as such. I can see why some, in that period of time, reading that line, might cringe at the reference. The dark place of the womb could also signficy the opposite of death - the dream state prior to life or the state of not being born or breathing and therefore not being alive fully (in the mother's eyes), therefore hidden in the darkness of her womb - alone, alone as the husband is in death...and Elizabeth, herself is alone. I am not sure; just merely throwing that out there for thought, knowing how Lawrence uses 'contrasts' continually throughtout the story and his other works.

[Quark]

The dark place of the womb could also signficy the opposite of death - the dream state prior to life or the state of not being born or breathing and therefore not being alive fully (in the mother's eyes), therefore hidden in the darkness of her womb - alone, alone as the husband is in death...and Elizabeth, herself is alone. I am not sure; just merely throwing that out there for thought, knowing how Lawrence uses 'contrasts' continually throughtout the story and his other works.

Normally, we would think of the dead as the opposite of the unborn. One is finished; the other is just beginning. In this story, though, they are connected in Mrs. Bates revelation about death; and, it's in this context we need to think about the icy child. Both cold and dark signify the death of Mr. Bates, and the husband's death signifies separation, fear, and isolation. When Elizabeth's womb turns to ice, we need to ask ourselves which association Lawrence wants us to make. It seems like it's either another realization about the wife's separation from her husband, or it's anxiety about the unborn child. It's hard to tell which this statement is directed at.

[Janine]

Normally, we would think of the dead as the opposite of the unborn. One is finished; the other is just beginning. In this story, though, they are connected in Mrs. Bates revelation about death; and, it's in this context we need to think about the icy child. Both cold and dark signify the death of Mr. Bates, and the husband's death signifies separation, fear, and isolation. When Elizabeth's womb turns to ice, we need to ask ourselves which association Lawrence wants us to make. It seems like it's either another realization about the wife's separation from her husband, or it's anxiety about the unborn child. It's hard to tell which this statement is directed at.

Hi Quark, I think what you wrote here is pretty good - accurate. I still don't know the answer completely, either. When all else fails, I say go to the internet and research - there might be something on it listed. Of course, the first thing to come up was our discussion on here. Lit Net is quite prominent on L these days!
Funny, during my search I found this quote and this little tidbit from Shakespeare:
"The earth that's nature's mother is her tomb; What is her burying grave that is her womb." Romeo and Juliet , II, iii

More specifically, I also found this passage online, but could not copy it to my file, so you could just go there and read it if you like. It is from a commentary book still under copyright. Only the first paragraph seems to relate to the statement, about the "fire in the womb". See what you think.

http://www.google.com/search?q=ice+o...+womb+lawrence

Note: this is the link to general page of my 'search' - go to bottom of page and click on 'Writing in Society - Google Books Search' and it will take you to the right page.

If the link does not work, or does not take you to the exact spot, in the manuscript, I will have to type it out later on today or tomorrow.

Hey, Quark, remember the outdoor scene I was recalling with the children playing beneath a streetlamp? I came across it when I was posting some commentary in the S&L thread - it's in that story and not this one! My mistake. I was mixing them up, scenerios are so similar with the children/miners/setting.

[Quark]

More specifically, I also found this passage online, but could not copy it to my file, so you could just go there and read it if you like. It is from a commentary book still under copyright. Only the first paragraph seems to relate to the statement, about the "fire in the womb". See what you think.

I couldn't get to the passage from the link. The google search list doesn't show the page. Could you just paraphrase the argument?

[Janine]

Quark, it is not long, so I will try and type it later on. I can't do it now - too busy with real life things and have to get off of here presently and attend to them. Sorry that link did not work for you. I hate those passages one cannot copy. In the meantime try putting in the top search: Writing in Society - Google Book Search - see if that takes you to the page. Forget that idea - that does not work either. I will have to type it up for you.

[Janine]

Quark, this is really funny. That link did take me to that writing directly yesterday, but now it doesn't; I can't locate it for some strange reason. Instead, in searching through the listings I found this article instead and it seems to be better anyway.

I don't know who wrote it - it does not seem to state:

Death in a Flower
Ralph Waldo Emerson once said “Is not marriage an open question, when it is
alleged, from the beginning of the world, that such as are in the institution wish to get out, and such as are out wish to get in?”(Brainy Quote). Emerson’s expressions are all too true for many married people as well as those in serious relationships. It seems that engaging in marriage is a step that many take only to find out it was a mistake. Nothing is ever perfect in relationships as well as in life and in death. D.H. Lawrence similarly illustrates the theme of relationships and their unsuccessfulness in life in his short story “Odour of Chrysanthemums”. He realistically demonstrates these themes with “the pitiless self-discovery sometimes brought about only through the death of another” (72). In the story, Mrs. Elizabeth Bates, the protagonist, realizes the harsh realities of marriage as she waits for her husband to come home from the mineshaft one night. She is bombarded with the thought of him getting drunk at the local tavern and is furious at his inconsiderateness to the children and her. When Elizabeth discovers the death of her husband, she deals with the fact that she never loved him; he was simply a stepping stone for her two children and her unborn child into the world. Through diction in “Odour of Chrysanthemums” , a depressing and thought provoking story, Lawrence majestically uses beautiful language and vivid scenes through imagery, foreshadowing, and symbolism to portray the hard times in Elizabeth’s life. The main theme in the story is that truth and the relationships in life are often difficult and are sometimes not figured out
until the ultimate tragedy, death.
Conflict is very strong in Elizabeth’s life. As the plot thickens, she begins to discover the truths in her life through the events during the day. Realizing that her husband is the root of much of the conflict, Elizabeth takes a deeper look at his own flesh and blood: her son. “She saw herself in his [her son’s] silence and pertinacity; she saw the father in her child’s indifference to all but himself” (75). Lawrence characterizes Elizabeth through her son’s action. She starts to see traits in her son that she had not noticed before; moreover, the fact that she sees herself as quiet and determined in her son’s personality makes her look like a warm nurturing mother. In contrast, she sees a selfish image in the child inherited from the father, characterizing the father as a bad influence to the son. Her thoughts foreshadow to the reader and to her that the marriage is having problems because she cannot even find a moral trait in her husband let alone her son. Her thoughts also demonstrate her feelings of anger towards her husband becauseshe thinks about the negative characteristics that her son possesses from the father rather than the positive. While waiting for her husband to return home from work or the bar rather, she regrets ever moving in with him, “…what a fool I’ve been, what a fool! And this is what I came here for, to this dirty hole, rats and all, for him to slink past his very door” (78). She feels threatened and upset that her husband is so selfish as to not even come home to his family when she has given up so much for him. Growing suspicion proves that Elizabeth no longer trusts her husband, and she faces with the reality of herdiminishing marriage.
The conflict in Elizabeth’s marriage is escalated by the representation of fire. Throughout the entire story, fire is forthcoming. As the fire starts to dwindle the climax rises and death becomes more evident. The mood is set in the beginning of the story when the miners are described as “shadows diverging home” (73). A gloomy, lonely emotion is felt by the scene, and fire is the only source of light and brightness. It is quickly obliterated as death approaches. “As she [Elizabeth] dropped piece after piece of coal on the red fire, the shadows fell on the walls, till the room was almost in total darkness” (77). Elizabeth becomes restless as her husband is no where to be seen or heard. To keep the fire burning all night would be absurd, so she slowly lets the glowing ambers disperse into nothingness in hopes he will return home soon. Her hopes weaken in this ironic statement, “what a fool she had been to imagine that anything had happened to him!” (79). Whereas she may not be serious; her words will come back to haunt her when she finds out that her husband has died. The strange thing is “‘E [the husband] wor smothered [in the mine]!” (83). The fire at the home gradually disappearing, symbolizes the very ashes at the mine that smothered Mr. Bates to death. Deep down Elizabeth feels that it was a long time coming because he was always coming home drunk and inconsiderate, but her feelings of guilt creep on—for she had inadvertently hoped that something had happened to him.
As fire represents the feeling of death, so too do chrysanthemums represent a deeper emotion. The powerful use of symbolism and imagery is evident in the story through the representation of chrysanthemums. The essence of these mums is far beyond their pink, purple, yellow, or white colors. They effectively symbolize the ups and downs in life. “It was chrysanthemums when I married him, and chrysanthemums when you were born, and the first time they ever brought him home drunk…” (78). Getting married and having kids is an exiting time in life but associating mums with the hard times in life, such as drunkenness, foreshadows that the events to come are not so bright and thrilling. It appears that Elizabeth loves her kids but is very reluctant to her husband. When her little daughter Annie tells her that the mums smell good, Mrs. Bates disagrees immediately, “…he’d got brown chrysanthemums in his button hole”
(78). To smell the beauty of the flowers was awkward to Elizabeth because whenever her husband was brought home drunk he would have flowers for her that were like rotted bananas that never got eaten. When her husband dies and is lying on the parlor floor “there was a cold, deathly smell of chrysanthemums” (84). Through imagery, the desolate odor of dead, decaying mums is tangible to the reader. Just as Elizabeth and her husband’s marriage began with chrysanthemums, their relationship coincidentally ended with chrysanthemums. “One of the men had knocked off a vase of chrysanthemums…As soon as she could get in the room, she went and picked up the broken vase and flowers” (84). The breaking of the vase that held the mums symbolizes an end to their lives together and hopefully the beginning of a new life for Elizabeth.
While the chrysanthemums symbolized death and a new beginning, Elizabeth’s feelings leading up to her husband’s death were very expected through foreshadowing earlier in the story and the feelings she had after his death were almost predictable. “’Is he dead?’ she asked, and at the words her heart swung violently, though she felt a slight flush of shame…” (82). Asking the question makes Elizabeth seem eager to know that her husband is dead. Showing little emotion during the ordeal, Elizabeth grasps that she is not very upset about her husband’s death and has cold feelings towards it. At that very moment she starts to realize that she is no longer and never was a part of him. “She saw him, how utterly inviolable he lay in himself. She had nothing to do with him. She could not accept it” (86). Feeling disturbed and searching for one last hope “…she seemed to be listening…to get some connection. But she could not. She was driven away. He was impregnable” (86). His disconnectedness hit home hard for her. The reality had set in that she never had a connection with this man whom she loved for so long. He was a stranger to her even when it seemed they were so close. Having kids together was the only thing they shared, yet “the utter isolation of the human soul, the child within her was a weight apart from her…in her womb was ice of fear…” (86-87). She now has the hinder of his child in her. Finding no love from her husband’s dead malicious body, how could Elizabeth find the strength to love her unborn child? The fear inside of her reaches far beyond her child, “She was grateful to death, which restored the truth…But from death, her ultimate master, she winced with fear and shame” (87-88). It was as she was reborn. Now she has to move on by living rather than dwelling on what had been or rather what had not been in life. Realizing that she had kids to provide for and a home to maintain, Elizabeth found the strength to move on.
Through experience and struggle, truth is found, whether it is painful or not, truth is found. Lawrence successfully embodied symbolism along with imagery and other literary elements to portray the theme of death, life, and relationships. Elizabeth discovered the truth in her own personal relationship through the death of her husband.
No matter how they are represented in life, as chrysanthemums or as fire, difficulties are evident in everyone’s lives. These difficulties might just be in a different form. Forexample, Jesus had difficulties in his life everyday. From the criticism of his peers to the devil’s persuasion, Jesus had to overcome temptations to pursue the true calling in his life. In the same way Elizabeth too had to bypass the horrid events in her life and continue existing. A dose of truth did not shut down Elizabeth’s life. People have to deal with unpleasant circumstances all of the time; it is a part of life. Hiding from problems, running from fear, and avoiding death is only natural but with a truthful understanding of all of life’s stages one can conquer anything.

Works Cited
“Brainy Quote.” 2005. XploreInc. March 6,
2005<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/topics_love.htm

Interesting - gets a little preachy at the end, but still thought it enlightening. Until I find that other short commentary I thought this was worth reading.

[Janine]

SO.... where is everybody - speechless? I am not complaining since I could use a little break myself today. I am going out and will check in later to see if anyone has posted.

[Virgil]

I don't know Janine. It doesn't feel like a great reading to me. Was that an essay by a college student or something like that? But I've only skimmed.

[Janine]

I don't know Janine. It doesn't feel like a great reading to me. Was that an essay by a college student or something like that? But I've only skimmed.

I don't know really - I just found it online, when randomly searching for some comments on O of C - the listings kept pointing me back to our thread.... When I found it, it did not prevent me from copying and I thought a few things seemed to be worthwhile, so I posted it. Only really just read it completely through last night (pretty dumb, huh?). I liked the part about the 'fire' and the 'chrysanthemums'. Of course, most of that we already have discussed and pointed out the significance of. I guess you could say it is just someone's individual view on the story, so please, everyone, do view it that way. I could not see where the person signed their name or who (if a critic) this writing was attributed to.

You know in the chapter I just read in S&L (last night) there were a lot of references to fire and in different ways or meanings. I had never noticed that before but now it stands right out to me. Also, when seaching on the net, about this short story, I saw other short stories that he had written that pointed out the fire reference(s) - I thought that was interesting. Guess most of L's work had fire explored throughout, as a theme. I recall a prominent scene in his travels through Italy - think is "Sea and Sardina" when he and Frieda stopped the night at a small inn and the hearth and fire were a prominent feature, almost like they were a character all in their own. I will have to go back and re-read that scene. It was quite impressive.

[Virgil]

I read the essay more carefully. Some thoughts here. First I'm pretty sure this is an essay by an undergraduate student.

When Elizabeth discovers the death of her husband, she deals with the fact that she never loved him; he was simply a stepping stone for her two children and her unborn child into the world.

How does he know she never loved him. She's angry with him. Perhaps one might argue she does not love him at the present time of the story. But did you see anywhere that she has never loved him?

Through diction in “Odour of Chrysanthemums” , a depressing and thought provoking story, Lawrence majestically uses beautiful language and vivid scenes through imagery, foreshadowing, and symbolism to portray the hard times in Elizabeth’s life.

That is certainly an undergrad writing. I remember even I throwing a useless sentence like that in an essay.

Realizing that her husband is the root of much of the conflict, Elizabeth takes a deeper look at his own flesh and blood: her son. “She saw herself in his [her son’s] silence and pertinacity; she saw the father in her child’s indifference to all but himself”

This is an interesting observation. I did a cursory look through the story but couldn't find the quote. But I trust him. Perhaps there is another element to the story we haven't talked about in the way the children reflect their parent's personalities.

As fire represents the feeling of death, so too do chrysanthemums represent a deeper emotion. The powerful use of symbolism and imagery is evident in the story through the representation of chrysanthemums. The essence of these mums is far beyond their pink, purple, yellow, or white colors. They effectively symbolize the ups and downs in life. “It was chrysanthemums when I married him, and chrysanthemums when you were born, and the first time they ever brought him home drunk…”

This is kind of weak. He's trying to articulate the significance of the fire and Mums and he's grasping, I'm afraid. Both I think symbolize life and death simultaneously.

His disconnectedness hit home hard for her. The reality had set in that she never had a connection with this man whom she loved for so long.

He just said above (in the first quote I copied above) that she never loved him and now says she loved him for so long.

He was a stranger to her even when it seemed they were so close. Having kids together was the only thing they shared, yet “the utter isolation of the human soul, the child within her was a weight apart from her…in her womb was ice of fear…” (86-87). She now has the hinder of his child in her. Finding no love from her husband’s dead malicious body, how could Elizabeth find the strength to love her unborn child?

Huh? Where does it say she will not love her unborn child? I give this guy a B-.

[Quark]

How does he know she never loved him. She's angry with him. Perhaps one might argue she does not love him at the present time of the story. But did you see anywhere that she has never loved him?

He just said above (in the first quote I copied above) that she never loved him and now says she loved him for so long.

I think what he was trying to say is that Elizabeth hadn't understood her husband while she was living with him. It's possible, too, that the person may have completely lost track of what they were arguing. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and just call him a poor writer.

This is an interesting observation. I did a cursory look through the story but couldn't find the quote. But I trust him. Perhaps there is another element to the story we haven't talked about in the way the children reflect their parent's personalities.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the children are a mirror to the parents, but there are moments where Mrs. Bates sees herself and her husband in their kids. The part he's referring to is: "As the mother watched her son's sullen little struggle with the wood, she saw herself in his silence and pertinacity". While, yes, Elizabeth sees herself in her son, this is really a characterization of Elizabeth's struggle not her son. There isn't a greater scheme to link the parents to the children--just occasional comparisons to bring out an idea. In this case, Elizabeth's household management is compared to a morose youngster carving a piece of wood.

This is kind of weak. He's trying to articulate the significance of the fire and Mums and he's grasping, I'm afraid. Both I think symbolize life and death simultaneously.

Actually, I thought he was hitting on many of the same points we were making--in his clumsy way.

Huh? Where does it say she will not love her unborn child? I give this guy a B-.

This argument lost me, too.

[Janine]

I read the essay more carefully. Some thoughts here. First I'm pretty sure this is an essay by an undergraduate student.


How does he know she never loved him. She's angry with him. Perhaps one might argue she does not love him at the present time of the story. But did you see anywhere that she has never loved him?


That is certainly an undergrad writing. I remember even I throwing a useless sentence like that in an essay.


This is an interesting observation. I did a cursory look through the story but couldn't find the quote. But I trust him. Perhaps there is another element to the story we haven't talked about in the way the children reflect their parent's personalities.


This is kind of weak. He's trying to articulate the significance of the fire and Mums and he's grasping, I'm afraid. Both I think symbolize life and death simultaneously.


He just said above (in the first quote I copied above) that she never loved him and now says she loved him for so long.


Huh? Where does it say she will not love her unborn child? I give this guy a B-.

Well, I would take a B- and be greatful.
Yes, right - I did notice some funny discrepacies in the writing and the 'thought process' going on here, like 'she did not love him, then she loved him'...quite odd. This poor guy/gal is being put 'through the mill' now with us brilliant, exceptional minds. Please forgive me, whomever you are and wrote this essay or paper.
I also wondered about that quote - like where did it come from, but actually it does bring up some interesting thoughts. If nothing else we can disagree with this person and essay but we can salvage some ideas from it and different ways of looking at the themes and story.
At least it got you guys writing some new posts!

[Janine]

Quark, pretty much answered it all in Virgil's post. Sorry to have posted this but at least it got some conversation going again. I do think the child reflection had some significance that we could further delve into.


Well, let's give the guy a break, everybody - he struggled with his thoughts and this was the result. It was not that bad. Guess I was tired trying to locate the right quotes, I had found the night before, got desperate from frustration and posted this. I never did come up with that site. It seemed it just disappeared for some strange reason.

[Quark]

If nothing else we can disagree with this person and essay but we can salvage some ideas from it and different ways of looking at the themes and story.

That's fair enough. Let's look at the ideas; specifically, let's look at his explanation of the phrase "in her womb was ice":

Having kids together was the only thing they shared, yet “the utter isolation of the human soul, the child within her was a weight apart from her…in her womb was ice of fear…” (86-87). She now has the hinder of his child in her. Finding no love from her husband’s dead malicious body, how could Elizabeth find the strength to love her unborn child? The fear inside of her reaches far beyond her child, “She was grateful to death, which restored the truth…But from death, her ultimate master, she winced with fear and shame” (87-88). It was as she was reborn. Now she has to move on by living rather than dwelling on what had been or rather what had not been in life. Realizing that she had kids to provide for and a home to maintain, Elizabeth found the strength to move on.

The argument is a little weak. Elizabeth is worried about providing for her children early in the story, but her attitudes change dramatically in this part of the story. Mrs. Bates' womb turns to ice when she contemplates the individuality of her husband's character. She isn't worried about providing for the family at this point. Context is crucial for understanding this passage, and I don't think our critic took that into consideration. As for the other argument--that Mrs. Bates is anxiety-stricken about the demands on her love that the children will make--I don't know where this is coming from. I don't remember reading anywhere that Elizabeth believes she doesn't have enough love to give to her children. She actually considers herself an excellent mother. We, the readers, might want to qualify that assessment, but I don't think anyone would suggest she didn't love her son and daughter. The argument seems to mistake Elizabeth's bitterness for genuine hatred, and I think readers would lose much of importance of this story if they believed that.