i didn't like pride and prejudice

[Newcomer]

Feminism is by no means monolithic or static. thereby what feminist means in terms of early 19th century and today are very different. Thereby your proofs, though with some merit, are false, do to the fact that I feel for her time she is somewhat of a feminist, in the sense that she illustrates the "best" character as the one who imbues the most feminist ideals.
In the sense of feminism, the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist, yet her point of view (from what can be seen from the fragments and two remaining complete poems) is nothing like what we imagine feminism today.

The cited reference - The Female Imagination and the Modern Aesthetic, edited by Gilbert and Gubar is not 19th. century but published in 1986. All of the literary analysis are of works of the 20th. century writers.
Gilbert and Gubar are acknowledged authority on feminism and used in many universities as reference in womens studies. The preface states unambiguously: “This collection of essays edited by Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar addresses topics that are central to feminist scholarship and gender studies, such as the relationship of female literary tradition to the larger literary context and inner-connection of social and sexual identity with historic and economic events.” The qualities used to define the pertinent ideology of feminist literature are not mine but defined in the essays. They are used solely to illustrate the contrast between the feminist ideology and the morality and social values inherent in Austen's work.
They are used also to give concreteness to the nebulous arguments and citation of feminism as used by the majority of the young women on the Forum.
Since you state that “ Thereby your proofs, though with some merit, are false” you will have to give a better argument than “do to the fact that I feel for her time she is somewhat of a feminist, in the sense that she illustrates the "best" character as the one who imbues the most feminist ideals.”.
Have you read The Female Imagination and the Modern Aesthetic and you dispute the premises that Gilbert and Gubar lays out as being out date or false? If so what are your references?
That you feel so is not sufficient, in the mathematical sense of profs, as necessary and sufficient. The statement In the sense of feminism, the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist, yet her point of view (from what can be seen from the fragments and two remaining complete poems) is nothing like what we imagine feminism today.. What are the history references that define Sappho as a feminist?I have read Sappho's fragments in translation and with the qualification that the denotation and connotation Archaic Greek words are open to interpretation, nowhere can I find the supposition that Sappho was a feminist.
In If Not Winter – Fragments of Sappho, the poet Anne Carson states “Sappho was a musician. ... Sappho was a poet” nowhere does she suggest that she was a feminist. She continues:”Controversies about her personal ethics and way of life have taken up a lot of people's time through the history of Sapphic scholarship. It seems that she knew and loved women as deeply as she did music. Can we leave the matter there?” Apparently the feminists can not.

[ale]

Feminism is by no means monolithic or static. thereby what feminist means in terms of early 19th century and today are very different. Thereby your proofs, though with some merit, are false, do to the fact that I feel for her time she is somewhat of a feminist, in the sense that she illustrates the "best" character as the one who imbues the most feminist ideals.

In the sense of feminism, the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist, yet her point of view (from what can be seen from the fragments and two remaining complete poems) is nothing like what we imagine feminism today.

I completely agree, feminism isn't static, and today it comprehends much more than it used to. at the beginning, it was a movement that supported women's rights, especially their right to vote and to have access to education & profession. Our heroine does not seem to mind not having had formal education (and Lady Catherine disagrees with that) or any kind of employment.
I see what you mean, anyway. For Austen's time, depicting a strong and outspoken female character was, shall we say, cutting edge?. Yet despite her strength, she does not attempt to challenge male domination in any sort of way (I don't mean to say that she should, just that she complies with the 'rules' of her time).
Would you forgive my boldness if I try to draw an analogy between her and Chaucer's Wife of Bath? She's an extremely strong and outspoken character, who does not mind challenging many of the principles of the Church. Yet, we wouldn't call her 'feminist', would we?

[Newcomer]

In the sense of feminism, the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist, yet her point of view (from what can be seen from the fragments and two remaining complete poems) is nothing like what we imagine feminism today.

“the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist”, surely that is a controversial claim. What is the connection? Lesbian love? In my view that would not be sufficient but to ascertain such a hypothetical, I have reread the fragments, using Anne Carson's translation and these are the only fragments that I found applicable. And only with a stretched imagination.

fragment30 - “night [ / girls / all night long / might sing of the love between you and the bride / with violets in her lap. / wake! And go call / the young men so that / no more than the bird with piercing voice / shall we sleep””

fragment49 - “I loved you, Atthis, once long ago / a little child you seemed to me and graceless.”
see reference.

fragment94 - “I simply want to be dead. / Weeping she left me / with many tears and said this: / O how badly things have turned out for us. / Sappho, I swear, against my will I leave you. / And I answered her: / Rejoice, go and / remember me. For you know how we cherished you. / But if not, I want / to remind you / ] and beautiful times we had. / For many crowns of violets / and roses ] at my side you put on / and many woven garlands / made of flowers / around your soft throat. / And with sweet oil / costly / you anointed yourself / and on a soft bed / delicate / you would let loose your longing / and neither any [ ] nor any / holy place nor / was there from which we were absent / nor grove [ ] no dance / [ ] no sound ]”

fragment 107 - “do I still yearn for my virginity?”

fragment112 - “blessed bridegroom, your marriage just as you prayed / has been accomplished / and you have the bride for whom you prayed / gracious your form and your eyes / as honey: desire is poured upon your lovely face / Aphrodite has honored you exceedingly.”

fragment115 – “to what / O beloved bridegroom may I compare you? / to a slender sapling / most of all / do I compare you”

fragment 121 - “ but if you love us / choose a younger bed / for I cannot bear / to live with you when I am the older one.”

Reference - pg361 If not Winter. A gloss on Atthis in fragment49 – Maximus of Tyre reads the matter philosophically:
The eros of the Lesbian woman – what else could it be than the Sokratic art of love? For they seem to me to have practices love each after their own fashion, she the love of women and he the love of men. They both said they loved many and were captured by all things beautiful. What Alkibeiades and Charmides and Phaidros were to Sokrates, Gyrinna and Atthis and Anaktoria were to the Lesbian woman. And what the rival artist Prodykos and Gorgias and Thrasymachos and Proagoras were to Sokrates, Goro and Andromeda were to Sappho. Sometimes she rebukes them, sometimes she interrogates them and she makes use of irony just like Sokrates. - Orations 18.9

It must be noted that the gloss on Atthis in fragment 49 by Maximus of Tyre was written in 2 AD. almost a century after Sappho and we simply do not know what the reference in the poetry of Sappho were available to him. Yet we can suppose that his interpretation was less tainted by ideology than those of the 18th. century or of the feminist ideology of the 20th.
Of the 189 fragments only fragments 49 and 94 can be viewed as referencing lesbian love, while fragments 30, 112, 115 reference heterosexual love and fragments 107 ,121, undefined eros. Thus 7 fragments out of 189 are not an indication of obsesion with sexuality, much less any possible connection with feminism.
If you shall maintain that my proofs are false, best of luck to provide the claim that your's are true.

[sarabear]

I disagree. The book is hard to get through at certain points, I will give you that, but the complexity of characters and the journey that they take is wonderful. The relationships make the book worth while. But it is all open to ones taste and opinion in novels and literature. I urge you to try it again one day. Your opinion may change.

[bookworm22]

Whoever doesnt read through this book misses on a lot. The adaptations of this literary work are always good, the essense is told but the good feeling is reading the actual book. The beggining I found it a bit confusing but once Lizzy desdains Mr Collins, their argument! was so rich and interesting, you begin to like Lizzy, understand her, feel her. Then when she falls in love with Mr Darcy, and the part of her first encounter with him and who she doesnt want to marry him him kept me pumped up for the rest of the book.

[learntodiscover]

There is an argument about wether she was feminist or otherwise. Although the female protagonist does not do anything out of the norm, she is a very strong character and holds herself together verywell. on the other hand I don't think jane austin was going for the feminist movment when she wrote the story......maybe she just wanted to change the roles woman played in literature at the time; weak, subservient and unimportant.

Then again everyone is allowed to have their views, even if it is indifferent.

[River]

I really disagree. Though the book is a very mature book, and yes it is very hard to read at some parts. But Jane Austen is a fantasic author. It takes good taste to enjoy her literature.

Exactly. Good taste.

[jessy2792]

I loved the movie and the book. Seeing the relationship between Darcy (who in my opinion is the most attracting fictional character I've ever read about) and Lizzy progress.
Austen is one of the best authors I've ever read. Yes, it's hard to get through certain parts of the book, but it's a thousand times worth it. For those who prefer "easy literature", as I call it, this book most certainly wold not be recommendable, but for those who are like me and despise "hollow" literature and appreciate books with something more to it this book surely is great. Hours well spend

[cactus]

I must say that I have only met one guy who truly enjoyed works by Austen or even the Bronte sisters. That was dear Mono oh how I miss him. I think Pride and Prejudice is the ultimate classic romance novel. which is why they have made sooo many movies based on it or even losely based on it. Has anyone watched "You've got mail"? with Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, it was based on the P & P. And the new P & P was on the top ten list of movies (top ticket sellers) for months. SO maybe you should try watching it. and for those that dont like the book maybe you just dont have the ability to understand the wit of Austen, a true female genius. Most men dont.

Yes, even Bridget Jones Diary is based on Pride and Prejudice as well. Same type of characters, same plot, different setting and details.

[Newcomer]

On Getting Austen

Yes, even Bridget Jones Diary is based on Pride and Prejudice as well. Same type of characters, same plot, different setting and details.

Shortysweetp (01-16-2006) - “I must say that I have only met one guy who truly enjoyed works by Austen or even the Bronte sisters. That was dear Mono oh how I miss him.... and for those that dont like the book maybe you just dont have the ability to understand the wit of Austen, a true female genius. Most men dont.”

Perhaps the example, “Mr. Darcy. *sigh* There honestly is no man I would rather meet.... he is perfect for Elizabeth in every way possible. Why can't that happen in real life? *sigh*”, is what you had in mind by 'getting it'?

Now I'll readily concede that most men do not gush over Austen. But to imply by 'Most men dont.', that they 'dont have the ability to understand the wit of Austen', is a bit far fetched, if not sexist. Gushing does not equate with understanding and judging by such a criteria, most girls don't. Note – girls, not women, as I think that they have neither the experience nor the comparative knowledge in literature to 'understand' Austen.
To suppose that because the stories end in marriage, Austen is a romance novelist, is to short-change- her. Pun intended. I have read as many incisive, interesting, analyses by men as by women. To name but a few: Harold Bloom in Canonical Memory on Persuasion, Frank Bradbrook on Jane Austen and her Predecessors, lastly but not the least, John Halperin on Jane Austen Bicentenary Essays. This is what I have in mind by 'getting it'.
Perhaps you would like to discuss what Austen meant by asking the 'sisters' to come to the defense of the novel in Northanger Abbey, or whether Emma's marriage is more patriarchal than heterosexual, or whether Elizabeth's values are more to the 'improvement of the estate' than just marrying for love not money, whether Austen identifies more with Marrianne's sensibility than with Elenor's sense, whether the novels have an early and late thematic difference and what such might be?
That is what I would define as a start to 'getting' Austen.
But then you probably were just gushing.

[Newcomer]

To correct the impression that my references were only of male critics, since Shortysweetp said that “Most men dont”, I'll include a very short list of women critics that I found interesting

1) Austen, Eliot, Charlotte Brontë, and the Mentor-lover By Patricia Menon - This lucid and tightly-argued study uses the motif of the mentor-lover--embodying diverse permutations of sexual love, power and judgment--to explore, evaluate and compare the works of Jane Austen, Charlotte Brontë and George Eliot as they contend with issues of sexuality, family, selfhood, freedom, conduct and gender. The figure also provides a means to probe their relationship to the reader as they become mentor-lovers through authorship, each eliciting a different form of love and electing a different style of instruction.

2) “Without Hate, Without Bitterness, Without Fear, Without Protest, Without Preaching”:Virginia Woolf Reads Jane Austen, by JUDITH LEE
http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/pri...mber12/lee.htm,
a view by a great woman writer on another.

3)And an astonishing overview placing Austen in a historic context,
Bardic Nationalism: The Romantic Novel and the British Empire By Katie Trumpener -This magisterial work links the literary and intellectual history of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Britain's overseas colonies during the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries to redraw our picture of the origins of cultural nationalism, the lineages of the novel, and the literary history of the English-speaking world. Katie Trumpener recovers and recontextualizes a vast body of fiction to describe the history of the novel during a period of formal experimentation and political engagement, between its eighteenth-century "rise" and its Victorian "heyday."

[learntodiscover]

I reread the book, fully this time and I must say it was a very fine read. But I can now understand why some people might no be able to take it. It can get boring at times and it is very dificult to read at times but it just depends on wether those stories are your cup of tea or not........oh and darcy, you guys are right he is so perfect...*sigh* and colin firth just played that part so well.

[Amanda29]

I'm sure everyone has heard the cliche - 'Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder'. I believe that can be liberally applied to the readers of P&P, as well. Or to any book, for that matter.

One thing I find myself asking is how anyone who cannot SPELL correctly (as I've noticed in some of these replies) can accurately judge such a literary classic? Can they actually READ this book? I'm not intending to be cruel. After all, P&P is, admittedly, difficult to read in some passages. I just find myself wondering what kinds of people are judging this book.

[Gladys]

Reading it gives me the slow numbing sensation of bleeding to death.

True it is that the plot is utterly predictable from beginning to end and that little of significance occurs, but I can't remember another novel where I read the last hundred pages laughing continuously. And yes, that includes all the sad bits!

I recently heard 'Pride and Prejudice' described as the comedy equivalent of 'King Lear' or 'Hamlet'. So true.

[Sir Bartholomew]

at least you didn't have the guts to say "it sucked", it's fine that you didn't like it. nobody can please everyone.