The True Satan?

[PrinceMyshkin]

God's creations are not "made" of Him. We are not part of God, neither is Satan.

If there was nothing before God, then of what could God make us - and Satan - but himself?

All believers understand

All believers who believe as you believe, perhaps, but can you really make this statement of ALL believers? On what authorty?

All believers understand that obedience to God means that we may be called to stand for Him - without the courtesy of a warning from God. I assume the death of his family was devastating - as it would to any human being. Unshakeable faith does not mean that tragedy doesn't hurt - it simply means that tragedy is insufficient to shake that faith.

What/where is the basis for such an 'understanding'?

Sure - but I never suggested that conviction made something true. It just makes it real for the convicted person.

So none of what you put forward is necessarily true, but is just what you personally are convinced of?

And our convictions are equally valid in the court of asbsolutely unbiased public opinion?

(mine) It is to be assumed that none of us being human has complete knowledge. A vital difference tro me is that some of us broadcast our incomplete knowledge as if it were sufficient for the rest of us. Apparently it is enough for you.

Not sure I follow the syntax of your second sentence. I'll assume it was meant in a friendly manner.

I think we would agree that neither of us (or anybody else for that matter) has complete knowledge as to the origins of the universe. The point I meant to make is that you put forward your convictions as if they were all that we need to know.

[Redzeppelin]

If there was nothing before God, then of what could God make us - and Satan - but himself?

God - apparently - can create matter ex nihilo. Evolution doesn't know what to do with matter once God is eliminated from the picture.

All believers who believe as you believe, perhaps, but can you really make this statement of ALL believers? On what authorty?

I will qualify: "All believers familiar with the Bible and the character of God."

What/where is the basis for such an 'understanding'?

Stated above.

So none of what you put forward is necessarily true, but is just what you personally are convinced of?

*sigh* - It's true - but I don't expect anybody to believe so just because I say. All believers believe their beliefs are true; the problem is this: since the belief systems of the world are mutually exclusive, all of them cannot be true ways to God: either one is right or all are wrong. I believe Christianity presents the most comprehensive picture of God.

And our convictions are equally valid in the court of asbsolutely unbiased public opinion?

Yes. However, our beliefs must be subjected to reality to see how they square; before you jump in with an "AHA!" let me remind you that reality - objective as I believe it to be - cannot be objectively seen by us - we are incapable of being completely objective; as such, our "screens" will have a strong influence on what we see "reality" to be. From where I stand, the problem with human behavior in this world makes perfect sense looked at through the lense of my Christian convictions; I don't think secular psychology presents an adequate picture of human behavior and why it is what it is; the reality of sin in a fallen world does IMO.

I think we would agree that neither of us (or anybody else for that matter) has complete knowledge as to the origins of the universe. The point I meant to make is that you put forward your convictions as if they were all that we need to know.

I put forward my convictions as sufficient for me - you are not required to accept any of my views as true; I am well aware that my words do not have the power to convince you that God exists - and that is not my intention anyway. If God wants you to believe, He will get your attention in one way or another.

[Thinkerr]

I agree. As to God creating the world out of nothing, I think it makes more sense than the Big Bang theory. If God is all powerful then he can easily create the entire universe out of nothing. The Big Bang theory states: In the begining there was nothing, then nothing exploded and there was something.
Creationist states: In the begining there was GOD and GOD made everything through his infinite power.

[Rockin462]

God was created by the Human mind as an answer to questions we can not answer.
The wise man in the tribe was constantly bombarded by, Where did we/this come from? How could this be? Etc. Etc.
A more powerful being than us must have created this as we could not, was and is an easy answer.
And to call something good there must be evil. Therefore if there is a God there must be a Satan.
As the tribes grew together a set of laws had to be created in order for people to be able to live together as a society. Thus, the creation of the original religions and laws.
Today we are much more intelligent and wise than 6000,4000,2000 years ago.
Now we need to evolve mentally and create a set of moral laws that come before religous belief. Laws of humanity that can not be trumped by religous rights or freedoms. Laws that truly equalize humans and can not be overturned by the line, one's faith allow them do it.
The hate caused by religion and people's beliefs has been and still is the biggest downfall of the world. People must get beyond tradition and faith to be truly able to respect the HUMAN BEING.

[Granny5]

I agree. As to God creating the world out of nothing, I think it makes more sense than the Big Bang theory. If God is all powerful then he can easily create the entire universe out of nothing. The Big Bang theory states: In the begining there was nothing, then nothing exploded and there was something.
Creationist states: In the begining there was GOD and GOD made everything through his infinite power.

How do we know that God did not cause the Big Bang? It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both. I see no reason to believe that God didn't cause the Big Bang or the evolution of humans. Everyone against such things assumes that a day for God is the same as what we humans think of as a day. Why would anyone assume that God's time is the same as ours? That makes no sense to me.
As for Satan, I tend to believe that Satan is a creation of the mind of man. Why would God let such a creature/being exist?
There is no value, nothing to be gained by God or mankind by the existence of a satan.

[Rockin462]

As for Satan, I tend to believe that Satan is a creation of the mind of man. Why would God let such a creature/being exist?
There is no value, nothing to be gained by God or mankind by the existence of a satan.

Well the reality is. God and Satan are both a creation of the mind of man.
In order to evaluate something there must be a base. We think in opposites.
Good/Evil, God/Satan, etc.
It's a by product of living on an earth made of opposites.
Opposing poles, Night/Day, hot/cold, life/death.
You can't say something is good if there isn't something evil to base your judgement on.

[MattG]

Reality? How do you know reality isn't a creation of your mind? Do you think your reality is the same as mine? Is your reality the same as anyones? How could it be? We are all individual filters on the universe. What is the probability that we see anything the same way? What you are calling reality is simply an overlap in common experience between one or many.

I believe God and Satan to be the same.

[Rockin462]

As you said reality is a creation of the mind. Everyone's may be different.
To say my reality is SIMPLY AN OVERLAP IN COMMON EXPERIENCE BETWEEN ONE OR MANY, says I am not an individual free thinker but a sheep amongst the brain washed masses. Wrong.

I believe God and Satan do not exist at all except as an extension of the mind. How we choose. There is a balance and opposing sides. Call them what you will.
You live your life. Either you create your heaven or you create your hell as you live it and as you like it or not.
Life is a matter of odds. What you do betters your odds to achieve or have what happens around you happen. You create a goal for yourself. Then you do things to achieve it. Those things you do to try and achieve are bettering your odds for your goal to happen.

[packersfan]

[QUOTE=Rockin462;463105]As you said reality is a creation of the mind. Everyone's may be different.
To say my reality is SIMPLY AN OVERLAP IN COMMON EXPERIENCE BETWEEN ONE OR MANY, says I am not an individual free thinker but a sheep amongst the brain washed masses. Wrong.QUOTE]

I do agree with skull farmer. Our realities our shaped by experience, and depending on our experiences, they overlap. From the difference between my experience on this earth and a someone from Africa's experiences, our realities are different by a much higher degree than mine and my next door neighbour. However I am a pretty religious person (but I am open to new ideas about religion) so I do not agree that god and the devil are the same person. And I do not understand how you can think god and satan are the same.

Please explain what you mean and your point of view. I am interested and totally open hearted.

[MattG]

To say my reality is SIMPLY AN OVERLAP IN COMMON EXPERIENCE BETWEEN ONE OR MANY, says I am not an individual free thinker but a sheep amongst the brain washed masses. Wrong.

I believe you've misinterpreted my meaning as I've perhaps done a poor job of explaining it. Firstly, I wasn't singling you out, but was speaking in more general terms. What I meant was that what you and I agree on as reality is actually a smaller part of who we are. We are all made up of our experiences and what you and I truly understand about one another is the small overlap of common experience that tends to garner for itself the label of 'reality'. I was actually suggesting that reality is much wider versus much narrower than what is commonly suggested by the word. Also, I'm not certain the brainwashed masses exist. I've never met them anyway. I think people usually have a valid reason for doing what they do in the context of their own reality. Sure, we may find it easy to just write people off as stupid but without understanding motivation then it is we who judge who ignore facts.

[Granny5]

Well the reality is. God and Satan are both a creation of the mind of man.
In order to evaluate something there must be a base. We think in opposites.
Good/Evil, God/Satan, etc.
It's a by product of living on an earth made of opposites.
Opposing poles, Night/Day, hot/cold, life/death.
You can't say something is good if there isn't something evil to base your judgement on.

Of course you can say if something is good without something evil to base it on. At least I can. If something makes me happy without hurting anyone else, I consider it good. That doesn't mean I have to hurt someone to know that. Babies know that to be held and loved is good without knowing that to be neglected and hated is bad. I believe that there are truly evil people living in our world and satan was created to explain them. The Devil made them do it is much easier to accept for most people than the fact that there are just plain evil people.

[Thinkerr]

From a Christian friend's point of view (I talked to him after starting this discussion) Satan is the root of all evil. God wants to make human beings perfect. Satan was the original rebel against God's plan, so when the End comes he's off to Hell. Satan knows this so he wants to corrupt as many people as possible and drag them down to the eternal fire with him. Misery loves company. Satan is not only NOT a figment of the imagination, he actively tries to cause people to slip up and go down with him. The evil people in the world did not cause Satan. Satan caused them.

[Rockin462]

How do you know the baby doesn't feel neglected the moment it is not being held? Hence they cry when they are put down? Babies are greedy. Do they not only think of themselves?
You may not have had to hurt someone because you have seen hurt done by others or have seen pain in life itself? No one leads a sheltered enough life to not have seen pain, suffering, hatred, misfortune or anything that someone may call evil!

Thinkerr, in a life of free will. The outside influences that can change perspective or sway a decision is what you are calling Satan? It' not a voice in your head is it?
I see things as odds. The company you keep, the decisions you make, the places you are or go, the goals you make, your desire to achieve them. It all changes the odds to what happens in your day and life. Freak instances or happenings,common occurances, what are chances or odds of them happening?

The cop out the devil made me do it, is someone who can't atone for their own doings. Call them psycho or evil or whatever. But that same trait exists in all of us. Some don't have enough self control to stop themselves.
Generally speaking, people have the self control to not do what they know is wrong. Some don't. And then there is the point that we do what we think is right. It may not be right to all.

I do disagree that we are merely a by product of our surroundings. As many things I see the way I do may be different from someone in Africa, or next door. There is many the same. We are considered individuals for a reason. But that doesn't mean 2 people from completely different worlds couldn't agree on most things.

[packersfan]

Rockin, I do agree with you up to a point.

Some women in the Middle East believe its okay to be treated as such and not having the "freedom" that woman in America would consider to be okay. Because these women grew up in the Middle East and were taught this by their religious leaders, they believe that's okay. Most women in America, because they were born with more freedoms, don't think this is okay. Being born in the Middle East totally influenced their thoughts about women's freedoms.

And as we have individual thoughts and personalities and as we are individual thinkers, a lot of our ideas about religion, politics, and freedoms are developed by our communities, societies, and parents. They may differ because my thoughts on religion are definitely different than my parents, but I grew up with ideas about politics and have those same ideas today.

Please explain your thoughts if they differ.

[Rockin462]

I believe, to say we are simply a by product of our surroundings is naive.
Though many people do not have the will to allow themselves true free thought, there are many great thinkers who do.
Our decisions change our lives daily. Some people who do not analyze or make informed decisions but simply do as expected or as taught, I can agree will be a by product of their surroundings and family influences.
Though someone is unable to express their desire in some places on this earth, doesn't mean they don't have them. And there is people with the courage to stand when told to lay down.
With Freewill we have the ability to shape our lives, surroundings, and decisions to create the outcome we desire. It doesn't always go the way we would like. And people change.
I believe life is a set of odds. Everything that happens and all that we do can be calculated. We dont have much control of what's to come, except to say, we can better the odds to achieve what we desire.
I was raised Catholic. I have ventured into brief studies of other religions. I came to the conclusion that religion is a base set of laws for which people to live by. Beyond that, human beings manipulated the WORD for their benefit through out the centuries. The also use the WORD to cause the greatest man made catastrophies. War and worse.
If we could as Human beings go 1 step ahead of religion and regional, family beliefs. And create a set of Laws for Humanity that superceed any and all other belief systems, we could truly break down the walls that separate us and no matter where we dwell or what we believe, we could be treated all as equals.
After all, isn't that what Jesus tried to do?