Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

Baby birds are pushed from the nest and have to learn to fly and eventually do fly away from their mother's to start their own families.

Or they get eaten by the nearest cat waiting in the bushes by the tree.

[Janine]

Yes, Janine, I agree with you. It is something that can be often seen in "real" life, as well. The husband is lost,(gone or dead), and the mother who happens to have a son clings to him, as if he was her only survival, if I can put it that way. It is to be expected, pain brings a lot with it, but it is then that one can refer to that thin red line which I have already mentioned.

Hi amalia, I am glad you see my point and agree with the idea. I think now about this a great deal, because, in some ways, it is personal to my own story and I have only one son to dote upon. Pretty much he goes his own way and does not suffer from the 'Lawrence mother syndrome' of trying to hold on to hard to him and his life. But, being a mother, I know that 'letting go' is hard time and a stage one must go through in life. Our mother's had to let us go at one time as well. It is natural to life and to nature itself. I see Mrs. Morel as having never gone to this stage with her sons. She might let them and even encourage them to go off to work on their own, out into the world, but when it came to women, she held the reigns even tighter. Emotionally she had a great hold over them. Is this the thin line you speak of - between love and obsession? I would imagine that Mrs. Morel has a total fear of being completely alone. Should her sons break totally away emotional she would probably have felt abandoned.

amalia, I got your thoughful PM and will answer later. My box is nearly full again, so I have to clear it out first. I am so glad you are enjoying this group. When we did "Women in Love" we had a great time, too. manolia really missed our discussions, when they finished up. She urged me to start up this group and thread, since we had (earlier) discussed it among ourselves. Thanks M, for motivating me!
I knew you would all love this book!

Very well put

I agree again - almost poetic the way you expressed that thought, amalia!

I liked that parallel

manolia, a pretty common parallel here in the US I think, but still a good one. All creatures leave their parents to go off and start their own family and reproduce. Only humans seem to have these 'pyschological, Freudian, subconscious, unconscious, cerebral' (are you listening to this, Virgil? hang-ups and problems! If you go into the 'Lawrence Tortoise poems' thread you will see the poem 'Baby Tortoise' - well, the turtle and tortoise do not even have the benefit of having known his mother, or parents, for that matter. He must survive entirely on his own. I think you will be 'touched' by Lawrence's sensitive writing about the baby tortoise.

Yes, very true. And the fact that Mrs Morel tried (and succeeded) in alienating her husband from her children is one of the outcomes. It is very hard when the children have to choose sides (haven't you said something to that effect on an earlier post?).

Definitely, I have said that before. I have experienced this, first hand, in my own immediate family. My parents did not get along and were so opposite from each other. I often say they should never have married. Of course then I would not be here - right? I can tell you that staying together 'for the children's sake' never works. It leaves a lot of deep scars on everyone and the children especially, so. I still feel the effects of a childhood with much 'turmoil' and 'tension', so that when I first began to read this book, I found it actually painful to revisit a battle ground between parents, as the Morel's household exhibited. Even the children's reactions to their parents were reminiescent of how I felt at a young age and how my sisters also, reacted. I think now we have all grown beyond that but some resentments can stay for a lifetime. It is hard to overcome ones past, especially the 'formative years'. I think this is one thing that greatly attracts me to Lawrence and his own personal story. I don't know if Lawrence ever overcame his mother's strong ties of love and obsession and posessiveness that were developed in his 'formative years'; I seriously doubt it, completely. I do think he carried the 'scars' of it all his life.

Yes exactly. That's is why Mrs Morel hates Miriam. They are fighting for the same thing: Paul's soul - spiritual side. And Mrs Morel has no problem with Clara (final verdict ). She is very kind with her on their first meeting. She merely feels sorry for her because she knows that Paul will soon abandon her.

manolia, that is so well put - yes, it is accurate to say she really does not take the Clara/Paul relationship seriously or that it will be permanent. I felt that was true, too. Therefore Clara does not threaten her relationship with her son.

Or they get eaten by the nearest cat waiting in the bushes by the tree.

Are you the class clown in this group? Thanks for lightening things up, Virgil!...truly!...
But seriously, when this happens and it does sometimes, unfortunately, (they call it 'survival of the fittest') and the persistent animals just start all over again - didn't you ever see that happen? I saw ducks hatch and then get eatten by turtles and then the mother duck just started all over again, like it was what she was suppose to do. Nature is like that - persistent and stubborn to survive. Instincts to perpetuate the species are strong. We humans are really the weak ones. Probably, Lawrence, would have said - "...because we think too much!"

[stella]

I can tell you that staying together 'for the children's sake' never works. It leaves a lot of deep scars on everyone and the children especially, so. I still feel the effects of a childhood with much 'turmoil' and 'tension', so that when I first began to read this book, I found it actually painful to revisit a battle ground between parents, as the Morel's household exhibited. Even the children's reactions to their parents were reminiescent of how I felt at a young age and how my sisters also, reacted. I think now we have all grown beyond that but some resentments can stay for a lifetime. It is hard to overcome ones past, especially the 'formative years'. I think this is one thing that greatly attracts me to Lawrence and his own personal story.

i have to disagree on" the stayig for the sake of the children "part ,i wish that my parents would get a divorce sometimes but i really dont want it to happen i guess the scars will be deeper if they did-not that they are not deep now ,am not thinking of ever getting married-but i guess it'll be much worse if they they get a divorce .
that's also what made me go on with the book the first part of the story was so personal for me .....

[amalia1985]

Janine and manolia, thank you for your nice comments. It means a lot to me, all these kind words. You make me very happy.

Marriage is something that I've always looked upon as some sort of a cage, although my parents are very well together. The thin line I spoke of is exactly what Janine mentioned. The difference between love and possession, which becomes obsession.

On the other hand, I've always sympathised with Mrs. Morel's fear of being abandoned, having known little affection from her husband, and I dare to say I can really understand how she feels.

[Janine]

amalia, how sweet of you to to thank us. I really meant it. You wrote that so well. You seem to like the story and really get it's depth and meaning, which not all people do or can. You and manolia really like to analysis which is right up my alley, too.
I think, being women, we can relate to Mrs. Morel. Being a mother, I know I can. I still feel the strong tie to my only child, my son. I feel wounded at times when not included in his life and he can hurt me by saying one little thing. It is not easy being a mother, period! Concerning Mrs. Morel, no one likes being ignored or neglected and in a big sense she has been so by her husband going to bars and coming home late. I have been through this type of thing in my own life, many many years ago in my past, and it is not a nice feeling taking second best over a world of men and a man who is self absorbed, especially one who stops off from work at a bar to drink for hours and comes home late for dinner. I think, that in reading this book a second time, I feel 'empathy' for both, the man and the woman. I seriously think they were mismatched from the beginning, and so it is not either of their faults that they can't get along together or feel true passionate love that lasts. Apparently, they once did have passion, but it faded because there was nothing else between them in order to cement the relationship - they were just too different. The passion burned out, in a sense and left them with nothing.
Yes, the thin line is the difference between love and possession. You are right - that then becomes obsession and the true love is lost.

Glad we have made you happy. I too, feel touched and happy that you are happy and enjoying the discussions so much. It can be enriching to talk like this, among each other, with all the 'give and take' of exchange going on. Ultimately we end up talking about life in general and a broader sense, and this is very helpful in the long run. I think Lawrence would be proud and pleased that his story brought this aspect out in people, making them re-exam their own selves and their own lives and their own values.

[Virgil]

Hey thought you might want to know. I came across a Lawrence poem on Miriam. Check it out:

Last Words to Miriam
by D.H. Lawrence

YOURS is the shame and sorrow
But the disgrace is mine;
Your love was dark and thorough,
Mine was the love of the sun for a flower
He creates with his shine. 5

I was diligent to explore you,
Blossom you stalk by stalk,
Till my fire of creation bore you
Shrivelling down in the final dour
Anguish—then I suffered a balk. 10

I knew your pain, and it broke
My fine, craftsman’s nerve;
Your body quailed at my stroke,
And my courage failed to give you the last
Fine torture you did deserve. 15

You are shapely, you are adorned,
But opaque and dull in the flesh,
Who, had I but pierced with the thorned
Fire-threshing anguish, were fused and cast
In a lovely illumined mesh. 20

Like a painted window: the best
Suffering burnt through your flesh,
Undrossed it and left it blest
With a quivering sweet wisdom of grace: but now
Who shall take you afresh? 25

Now who will burn you free
From your body’s terrors and dross,
Since the fire has failed in me?
What man will stoop in your flesh to plough
The shrieking cross? 30

A mute, nearly beautiful thing
Is your face, that fills me with shame
As I see it hardening,
Warping the perfect image of God,
And darkening my eternal fame. 35

I also looked it up in my complete poems of Lawrence and found two other versions. One which was never published and one that was published at an earlier date. They are slightly different. Unfortunately they are not on the internet. If I find the time and there is interest, I can hand type them in.

[Janine]

Hey thought you might want to know. I came across a Lawrence poem on Miriam. Check it out:


I also looked it up in my complete poems of Lawrence and found two other versions. One which was never published and one that was published at an earlier date. They are slightly different. Unfortunately they are not on the internet. If I find the time and there is interest, I can hand type them in.

Yes, I have seen this poem and I liked it very much. I thought it was very honest. Glad you posted it.
Thanks, Virgil, for taking the time to do so. It helps us to understand better Lawrence's mindset about Jessie, the model for Miriam, also. I posted a letter in this thread awhile back about Jesse and how the relationship ended badly/sadly.
If one scans back many pages you will all find a lot about the characters and real life people who represented or were models for the characters. I had also posted some very good photos from the areas that Lawrence is talking about as he writes in "Sons and Lovers" and later novels. You can get a real sense from those photos. What do they always say "a picture holds a million words"

Yes, if you can, V, do copy out the other versions. I am sure I have them in my book, too. It might be interesting to see how things might have changed in Lawrence's mind between the different drafts of the same poem.

I am editing this since I read the poem over thoroughly and wow - this is a great poem. What does everyone think of it. Really complex, isn't it?

Here is the last part of a letter by Lawrence that I had posted awhile back. This part concerns Jessie Chambers and their relationship and breakup and his plans of marriage to Louie Burrows. I would highly recommend reading the rest of the letter - it is on page 3 of this thread (towards the bottom of the page). Also, towards the bottom of that page, there are photos of the two young women.
This segment of the letter goes along well with the tone and portend of Lawrence's poem "Last Words to Miriam".

Muriel [Jessie Chambers] is the girl I have broken with. She loves me to madness, and demands the soul of me. I have been cruel to her, and wronged her, but I did not know.
Nobody can have the soul of me. My mother has had it, and nobody can have it again. Nobody can come into my very self again, and breathe me like an atmosphere. Don't say I am hasty this time - I know. Louie - whom I wish I could marry the day after the funeral - she would never demand to drink me up and have me. She loves me - but it is a fine, warm, healthy, natural love - not like Jane Eyre, who is Muriel, but like - say Rhoda Fleming or a commoner Anna Karenina. She will never plunge her hands through my blood and feel for my soul, and make me set my teeth and shiver and fight away. Ugh - I have done well - and cruelly - tonight.
I look at my father - he is like, a cinder. It is very terrible, mis-marriage.

Note how close the names are Murial and Miriam. Interesting.

[amalia1985]

It is exactly what we have been stating from the beginning. He is aware (Lawrence, and therefore Paul) that his mother "demanded" his soul. He seems to be giving it to her in his own free will, and is unwilling to share it with any other woman. I think that may be one of the reasons Mrs Morel "prefers" Clara. She seems to know that she would never "demand" his soul, whereas she can see that Miriam's wish is very different.

I love the way he uses examples taken from literature in his very telling answer. Jane Eyre, Anna Karennina, women that loved in a very deep, but also very different way. This comparison is outstanding, coming from a soulful genious!

Also the comment concerning his father is something that sheds light to many of his references and comments in the book. "Like a cinder"...It can brought tears to someone's eyes, just to think of the pressure in him. As powerful as the word "disgrace" mentioned in the poem Virgil kindly posted.

[manolia]

I love the way he uses examples taken from literature in his very telling answer. Jane Eyre, Anna Karennina, women that loved in a very deep, but also very different way. This comparison is outstanding, coming from a soulful genious!

That's what i thought reading this letter. I have read only Jane Eyre though
I like the way he justifies to himself his cruel treating towards Muriel. I couldn't help, while reading certain parts of the book, thinking that he is a cruel person when it comes to other women (except his mother). And a bit selfish too.

Note how close the names are Murial and Miriam. Interesting.

Janine, thanks for sharing. I hadn't noticed the previous pages (prior to our discussion). I'll do now

Hey thought you might want to know. I came across a Lawrence poem on Miriam. Check it out:

Nice poem!! Thanks for sharing. Yes, do type the other poems if you find time

I think, being women, we can relate to Mrs. Morel. Being a mother, I know I can. I still feel the strong tie to my only child, my son.......Yes, the thin line is the difference between love and possession. You are right - that then becomes obsession and the true love is lost.

Janine it saddened me to know that you can personally relate to this story

It is a sad story and it made me thinking about marriage and what an important step it is to one's life and what problems can create a possible mis-match..

[Janine]

It is exactly what we have been stating from the beginning. He is aware (Lawrence, and therefore Paul) that his mother "demanded" his soul. He seems to be giving it to her in his own free will, and is unwilling to share it with any other woman. I think that may be one of the reasons Mrs Morel "prefers" Clara. She seems to know that she would never "demand" his soul, whereas she can see that Miriam's wish is very different.

Amalia, Yes, It does confirm what we have all agreed upon. You state this very well. I don't see Mrs. Morel threatened by Clara (mother's do know when girls (in their son's lives) most likely won't be permanent - they have a sixth sense about these things). But with Miriam Mrs Morel is threatened, she fears abandonment - Miriam wants Paul's soul completely - Mrs. Morel knows this and sets up a war between them.

I love the way he uses examples taken from literature in his very telling answer. Jane Eyre, Anna Karennina, women that loved in a very deep, but also very different way. This comparison is outstanding, coming from a soulful genious!

Yes, isn't that wonderful? Well, as a young man, Lawrence avidly read these novels and authors, and later made his own assessments. I don't know if you are aware of it, but L wrote many an essay - there are complete books of them - on various prominent authors such as Dostoievsky, Thomas Hardy, Herman Melville, and countless others. Sometimes he could be too opinioned and brutal in his reviews but I have read several and find them interesting, regardless of his prejudices, which surface at times. The Thomas Hardy essay is wonderful and quite enlightening. One can see in L's early novels, "Sons and Lovers", especially in "The White Peacock", definite Hardy influences - these two books are more 'pastoral', although all his books contain elements of nature and his love of flowers, plants, trees and the natural environments he lived in. I have just finished up a later novel set in Mexico and his description of the vivid flowers and plants is extraodinary and so beautiful and so realistic, yet poetic.

Also the comment concerning his father is something that sheds light to many of his references and comments in the book. "Like a cinder"...It can brought tears to someone's eyes, just to think of the pressure in him. As powerful as the word "disgrace" mentioned in the poem Virgil kindly posted.

Amalia, the 'cinder' reference is near the end. Yes, it is a powerful word and relates back to the coal and the fire and the hearth, which we have been discussing in the short story thread - interesting. Also interesting, is the idea of Lawrence's own demise and cremation and his idea of the mythological 'Phoenix' bird who rises from the ashes and is reborn. Did you read the entire letter on page 3? Also, if you did go there, how did you like the photos of Jessie and Louie? Both were lovely women. I must have posted the other photos over in short story thread. I will check it out and see if I can repost some in here. Those are the ones of Lawrence's first/second(?) home and the foundry, mines and colliery, and also the countryside across from his home. These are quite interesting and illustrate L's environment at the time.

That's what i thought reading this letter. I have read only Jane Eyre though
I like the way he justifies to himself his cruel treating towards Muriel. I couldn't help, while reading certain parts of the book, thinking that he is a cruel person when it comes to other women (except his mother). And a bit selfish too.

Manolia, and I think it is ok to think that way. Lawrence was not a saint himself - he was human! If you read a biography on the author you will see that he was not always such a desirable friend or acted in a totally appropriate way. So his character of Paul is also 'human' with human flaws and confusions and adverse behavior, at times. I often found the character of Paul 'cruel' and even 'inconsiderate', in my own eyes. Always I tried to delve below and see why he was so. I felt often Paul was forcing Miriam into something she was not at all ready for. Remember she is only a young woman; how old was Miriam suppose to be? And also consider the time period these events took place. The world was about to change, and perhaps beginning to change, but inborn attitudes were still rooted in the past and the stricter morels of English society.

Janine, thanks for sharing. I hadn't noticed the previous pages (prior to our discussion). I'll do now

You are welcome. Glad it was helpful. I was really hunting for another letter when I came across this one which proved to be just as interesting. This part of the letter is only an excerpt from the end; I think you will find the entire letter very enlightening and revealing. These letters of Lawrence's are invaluable when studying his work. I still believe one cannot totally divorce an author and his biography/personal history from his work, especially with Lawrence's book "Sons and Lovers"...too much of it is based on biography and real people. So Virgil, I am once again taking my stand on this issue.

Nice poem!! Thanks for sharing. Yes, do type the other poems if you find time

Janine it saddened me to know that you can personally relate to this story

Well, everyone's family has some kind of a sad story, I would imagine. It is life. It is what we do with our past and our personal experiences, in the future, that counts - we have to go on past the bad memories and make our own good ones, right? Still it touched me that you felt that way for me. Thank you, M; you are so sweet and understanding.

It is a sad story and it made me thinking about marriage and what an important step it is to one's life and what problems can create a possible mis-match..[/QUOTE]

It is a sad story, but the thing is it is wonderful that it is impressing you and others in this way - to not go and make the same mistakes, as the characters have made. There is a definite lesson here, in seeing the 'opposite' of a 'happy union', displayed in this book. Yes, even today people get together for the wrong reasons and there are mismatches. Looking deeply into a situation like this one, depicted in this story/novel, one can see how it can happen and how to avoid it, personally. I think that Lawrence would have been more than proud to know that, generations later, he influenced someone in this way - to encourage them to live their own life, and a better one by far, than his parents did. I made a bad match myself in the past, but had the advantage to know it right away and break from the marriage and I have never regretted it one bit. The point is don't make the mismatch - marriage is something should not be taken lightly. It is a life decision which will effect your entire existence.

[Virgil]

Manolia, and I think it is ok to think that way. Lawrence was not a saint himself - he was human! If you read a biography on the author you will see that he was not always such a desirable friend or acted in a totally appropriate way.

Actually he could be quite cruel. He kept losing friends as he got on. Also his illness seemed to make hime very irritable. I guess that's understandable. But he was known for making fun of people behind their back.

These letters of Lawrence's are invaluable when studying his work. I still believe one cannot totally divorce an author and his biography/personal history from his work, especially with Lawrence's book "Sons and Lovers"...too much of it is based on biography and real people. So Virgil, I am once again taking my stand on this issue.

They are. But that's in addition to appreciating the novel for what it is on its own.

As to his loves and marriage, his marriage did not prove out very well. Personally I think he was best suited to be with Jesse.

[manolia]

Manolia, and I think it is ok to think that way. Lawrence was not a saint himself - he was human! If you read a biography on the author you will see that he was not always such a desirable friend or acted in a totally appropriate way. So his character of Paul is also 'human' with human flaws and confusions and adverse behavior, at times. I often found the character of Paul 'cruel' and even 'inconsiderate', in my own eyes. Always I tried to delve below and see why he was so. I felt often Paul was forcing Miriam into something she was not at all ready for. Remember she is only a young woman; how old was Miriam suppose to be? And also consider the time period these events took place. The world was about to change, and perhaps beginning to change, but inborn attitudes were still rooted in the past and the stricter morels of English society.

I've been reading the first three pages of this thread..where you reffer to the "who is who" in the book. So the Morel family and the family in Willie Farm are all made after real people in L's life?
You are very right. Paul is like a real human being. But that is what i like in a good book. Real characters and not one dimensional cardboard (sp?) characters That's what i meant

You are welcome. Glad it was helpful. I was really hunting for another letter when I came across this one which proved to be just as interesting.

Yep. Already read it I wonder how the real girl (Jessie) must have felt after reading this..

[Janine]

Manolia,
I thought you knew the novel was quite autobiographical and based on real people in L's life; his parents, friends and girlfriends, etc. Actually all of his novels are based, in part, on real people he knew. I cannot really think of one that is not, but Virgil may disagree with that. There is tons of research to wade through on this idea/subject. Some of the biography books I own have photos and it will say beneath the photo what character this (real life) person related to. I find this totally fascinating, but unfortunately, the real life people did not always find it so and took Lawrence quite literally even though he changed the characters for his own individual artistic expression. Many of his former friends/acquaintances dropped him like a hot potato; you can imagine! Oh yes, Lawrence made tons of friends and many people loved him intensely, but he also made many an enemy in his short lifetime.

I think that after Lawrence wrote this letter around the same time he wrote some to Jessie. directly. I will dig those up and post later; I have to type them out. I think after a time Jessie, no longer responded to these letters. In fact she may not have responded to any of them, after the breakup; I'm not certain. I know that I read a note on this, written by Lawrence's former friend, John Middleton Murray, concerning L's treatment of Jessie. Jessie, herself wrote a novel on Lawrence. You can find it listed on Amazon. I have often wondered if I should read it, but I think I read that it is quite slanted in the reviews in Amazon. Still, to hear it from a woman who had close ties to Lawrence intimately, I feel it would be benificial. I still may invest in that book someday, but I would not recommend it as the consumate and impartial biography of Lawrence. There are many biographies on Lawrence out there and some by former friends and they all have their bias' so you have to take that fact into account. Like reading history books, who knows what is truly accurate?

In the short story thread, we read "The Shades of Spring" and obviously, the models for the characters were Lawrence, himself and Jessie. Now years later, as the character, Syson, revisits his old sweetheart and countryside, he finds she has moved on; she has a new lover, who she plans on marrying. The story is a sort of 'what if you revisited your former lover' scenerio. I really liked the story, knowing of Jessie and Lawrence's true break, even looking in terms of the aspect of their intense friendship. The story seemed ever so poignant in the light of those facts.

I think, that likewise, "Sons and Lovers" feels the same to me. In fact I never went back to read the book until reading several Lawrence biographies; then my friend told me S&L is basically autobiographical. This intrigued me and made me want to read it. Even now, on a second reading, and having more biolographical knowledge of Lawrence, I find the reading has more depth for me concerning the characters and the relationships.

I do not think that Jessie ever married. This might tell you something about the depth of her love for Lawrence.

I have read in several books that Ursula (in part) is based on Frieda, Lawrence's wife, in both "The Rainbow" and 'Women in Love". In WIL, there are many characters based on real people in L's life, such as Hermoine and some critics have their thoughts, on who exactly Gerald represented or was modeled after - these do conflict some. Rupert Birkin is definitely based on Lawrence, himself. He preaches, like Lawrence, and is not always clear-cut on his theories on life and love (since they are still in the developmental stage for L)...so who could mistake him? There are books that tell who the characters are all based on. I find it quite interesting, don't you?

Manolia, I just went back and read the first 3 pages of this thread like you did. I had forgot what I had written in there and there is a lot of good comments and posts by Pensive and Virgil, as well. It would be good for anyone in this discussion to review those pages or skim to the informative parts. Yes, Willey Farm was based on Haggs farm - the homestead of the Chamber's family; Jessie Chambers is the counterpart to Miriam. The brothers play a prominent role in the story, as well.
Check out the Nottingham University online exhibit, to see photos of all of these people who the characters were based on. You will find it quite interesting. If you can't find the site, I will post the direct link. Let me know.

[amalia1985]

Yes, Janine, we have read Lawrence's essay on Hardy and Dostoevsky in our university class, and I must admit that this was my "initiation" to the Lawrence's world. The way his insight touched sensitive spots of those versatile and "sensitive" writers made me love him and all his works. The essays reveal his true, deep love for Literature with a capital "L", as we say in Greece, and makes someone admire the genious in the man, not only the author.

Regarding the two women, I must say that I love looking at collectors' photos of women and men of that era. They are so ethereal, almost otherwordly, so classy-if I may use the word-the way I've always pictured Lawrence and Hardy's heroines in my mind. He had a pretty good taste, to make it sound a little "lighter".

I must agree with you and Manolia, regarding the "first feelings" about Paul-and Lawrence, by extention-I've often thought "poor Miriam", "poor Clara", but more often I have thought "poor Mrs.Maurel".I don't know, I dare to say I can feel that woman, I have a very close relationship with my mother, and I seem to love all the mothers of the world, I don't know if that sounds a little bit childish from someone who enters his 23rd year of life, but I think that our love for our mothers moves our world-in a healthy relationship-I can understand his deep love for her.

Somehow off the point but it can be relevant in a way:taking all negative-and positive-spots in Rupert's character, isn't he fascinating?

[Janine]

Yes, Janine, we have read Lawrence's essay on Hardy and Dostoevsky in our university class, and I must admit that this was my "initiation" to the Lawrence's world. The way his insight touched sensitive spots of those versatile and "sensitive" writers made me love him and all his works. The essays reveal his true, deep love for Literature with a capital "L", as we say in Greece, and makes someone admire the genious in the man, not only the author.

amaliaHow fortunate to have read them; and did you discuss them, too? I would have loved to have disgussed them. I was borrowing that book from my library so many times, I finally broke down and bought it off Amazon used. I am glad I did; I find it interesting, even in part. I have not read it all. I read the Hardy essay but only part of the Dostoevsky one. My friend, Downing, was interested in reading it so I scanned it to my hard-drive to send to her sometime. She had just read a D novel, "Bothers K", I think.
You know that is very true - his love of literature comes through in those essays even though he does not agree with everything but he is very sensitive to the writers and how they thought at the time. Lawrence's love of literature stayed with him his entire life. It is even more amazing how much he read of other authors considering how much he wrote and how short his life really was. I found a letter where Lawrence said he had to read a book at least twice, and that everyone should do so. I really believe this is true now. I am adopting this philosophy.

Regarding the two women, I must say that I love looking at collectors' photos of women and men of that era. They are so ethereal, almost otherwordly, so classy-if I may use the word-the way I've always pictured Lawrence and Hardy's heroines in my mind. He had a pretty good taste, to make it sound a little "lighter".

I love looking at the old photos, too. I can't get enough of them. Everytime I buy a Lawrence book first thing I do is search (usually in the center of the book) for any photos. I have quite a collection by now. Yes, they are so 'ethereal and otherworldly' - that is an interesting way to put that. People were classy back then, men always wearing a suit in public and even at home, women proud of their finery and hats - hats were big. We have lost some of that sense of style and 'classiness', I think, which is kind of sad.

I must agree with you and Manolia, regarding the "first feelings" about Paul-and Lawrence, by extention-I've often thought "poor Miriam", "poor Clara", but more often I have thought "poor Mrs.Maurel".I don't know, I dare to say I can feel that woman, I have a very close relationship with my mother, and I seem to love all the mothers of the world, I don't know if that sounds a little bit childish from someone who enters his 23rd year of life, but I think that our love for our mothers moves our world-in a healthy relationship-I can understand his deep love for her.

Do you mean poor Mrs. Morel? Yes, I feel for her in many ways because I am a mother myself. However I think I felt deepest for the rejection of Miriam. I don't think the last part of your statement makes you seem childish at all. It is commendable that you have stayed so close to your mother - I am sure she is happy about that closeness and cherishes it. Yes, well we learn firstly from our mothers, don't we? Then why should there not be a strong bond between us and them. They gave us birth, so this bond is very special.

Somehow off the point but it can be relevant in a way:taking all negative-and positive-spots in Rupert's character, isn't he fascinating?

Absolutely! Isn't he like L himself and does he cease from fascinating us ever?