Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

Hehehe Amalitsa being spontaneous is a good thing It shows that you are a sincere and warm person . I wish i was spontaneous..

Anyway, i have another one of those questions were i ask your opinion..Isn't it a bit odd -for a man of his era- that Paul does all those house chores?? I know this question is a bit silly, but since we are a nice and causy discussion group i said i'd venture to ask

He didn't work in the mines so I would imagine that certain chores were divided between the home people, I'm refering to in addition to himself his mother and his sister. Lawrence in real life was quite a disciplined working person and I've read him describing himself doing many chores around the house.

[amalia1985]

I absolutely agree with everything Virgil said, and I would suggest that Paul feels very much attached to his house, he really wants to help, and as Virgil already mentioned, it is another very good "autobiographical" spot of the novel.

[Janine]

Hi Everyone's, your posts have been interesting...lots to think about. This recent discussion brought to mind a letter of Lawrence's I read recently, but now can't seem to locate in my books (I will keep trying). In the meantime, I did come across this letter by his wife Frieda. Note that "Sons and Lovers" was first called "Paul Morel" in original drafts by Lawrence. She is referring to that book and the letter by Lawrence, himself, which follows. It is interesting what she says and especially what Lawrence himself said and describes his book as embodying. Remember he is referring to his first drafts and his ideas. Still these letters are very significant and 'telling', revealing. Part of a letter to Mr. Garnett, September 7, 1912:

He really loved his mother more than any body, even with his other women, real love, sort of Oedipus, his mother must have been adorable....

Another letter to Garnett from Lawrence, (in reference to the ideas/story behind "Paul Morel"), 19 November, 1912:

It follows this idea: a woman of character and refinement goes into the lower class, and has no satisfaction in her own life. She has [U]had a passion for her husband, so the children are born of passion, and have heaps of vitality. But as her sons grow up she selects them as lovers - first the eldest, then the second. These sons are urged into life by their reciprocal love of their mother -- urged on and on. But when they come to manhood, they can't love, because their mother is the strongest power in their lives, and holds them. -- It's rather like Goethe and his mother and Frau von Stein and Christiana --. As soon as the young men come into contact with women, there's a split. William gives his sex to a fribble, and his mother holds his world. But the split kills him, because he doesn't know where he is. The next son gets a woman who fights for his soul -- fights the mother.The battle goes on between the mother and the girl, with the son as object. The mother gradually proves stronger, because of the tie of blood. The son decides to leave his soul in his mother's hands, and, like his elder brother, go for passion. He gets passion. Then the split begins to tell again. But, almost unconsciously, the mother realises what is the matter, and begins to die. The son casts off his mistress, attends to his mother dying. He is left in the end naked of everything, with the drift woards death.

Then in the next paragraph he adds:

It is a great tragedy....

[manolia]

He didn't work in the mines so I would imagine that certain chores were divided between the home people, I'm refering to in addition to himself his mother and his sister. Lawrence in real life was quite a disciplined working person and I've read him describing himself doing many chores around the house.

I absolutely agree with everything Virgil said, and I would suggest that Paul feels very much attached to his house, he really wants to help, and as Virgil already mentioned, it is another very good "autobiographical" spot of the novel.

Thanks. That makes sense..but he had a job which occupied most of his day (the one at Jordan's)..i again thought that it had to do with his mother (he somehow enjoyed helping her and doing house chores in order to be close to her).

EDIT
Ooops Janine didn't meant to post over you..

[Janine]

Thanks. That makes sense..but he had a job which occupied most of his day (the one at Jordan's)..i again thought that it had to do with his mother again (he somehow enjoye helping her and doing house chores in order to be close to her).

That is true and actually Lawrence, himself, did so. He also did many household chores during his marriage. He loved scrubbing floors, yuk, and he liked cooking very much so. He even baked breads in a crude oven when he lived in Taos, New Mexico. He enjoyed physical labor and even worked once on a farm and loved it. He was quite a versatile person.

EDIT
Ooops Janine didn't meant to post over you..

Yes, manolia, no, need to be sorry and no problem, but it was strange -- I nearly had a heart-attack just now. I thought I had lost that whole post I just took the time to copy by hand out of my book. Oh, relief, so glad it came through ok. I hope you all find it interesting.

Oh sorry, Virgil, did not realise you posted nearly the same thought on housework - we also were posting the same time.... how funny! Lively group here today....

[manolia]

Janine you were right about Clara. She isn't much like Gudrun Anyway, didn't she submit quite easilly?
As about Mrs Morel liking Clara i am about to read their first meeting under the Morel roof. I'll offer my final verdict tomorrow

[Janine]

Janine you were right about Clara. She isn't much like Gudrun Anyway, didn't she submit quite easilly?
As about Mrs Morel liking Clara i am about to read their first meeting under the Morel roof. I'll offer my final verdict tomorrow

manolia, glad you agree about Clara and Gudrun. I only vaguely remember that scene - will be interesting when I get to it. So far I have still been reading this book like a snail - very slowly and really absorbing it this time round. Sadly I am only yet on page 100....that is slow I did stop to read the end of "The Plumed Serpent" so I am guilty of straying slightly....now I am back on the path of reading S&L's so there is hope for me yet.
So about the reading of the meeting of the two woman -- are you sure it will be your 'final verdict!'

manolia, before I leave for dreamland and sleep (much needed right now), I would like to ask you to post what you thought of Lawrence's letter on his ideas of what his novel represents. I thought that letter was quite 'revealing'. You know that Lawrence was a very avid letter writer? He wrote as many or even more letters than he did novels - I think there are 7 full volumes of his letters in book form. Virgil knows the exact amount so I might be wrong on the number. Truly amazing! When did the guy sleep between household chores, breadbaking, letters, novels and stories, not to mention poetry?

Also, does anybody have any ideas on Paul's first job and his departure, that first day, from the security of his home? I thought those passages, when his mother accompanied him to the interview, and the day he first set off alone to get the train, to be very well written and interesting, also very 'real'. So any thoughts on this part of the book and what follows - his time in the factory setting, working with a different set of people and various personalities? Just throwing this question out there and hope to get some thoughts on the subject....call it 'leaving home to work at one's first job' - surely we can all relate to that experience.

[manolia]

I forgot to comment on the letter you posted, thanx for reminding it .

But as her sons grow up she selects them as lovers - first the eldest, then the second

I liked this explanation. I don't take it literaly, though. I think it means that Mrs Morel places her affection on William first and after his death concetrates on Paul. She depends firstly on her first born, she clings on him and when he is no longer available she turns to Paul.

But when they come to manhood, they can't love, because their mother is the strongest power in their lives, and holds them. As soon as the young men come into contact with women, there's a split. William gives his sex to a fribble, and his mother holds his world. But the split kills him, because he doesn't know where he is.

It seems to me that William and Paul lead parallel lives (at least their love lives are alike) up to a certain point.

The next son gets a woman who fights for his soul -- fights the mother.The battle goes on between the mother and the girl, with the son as object. The mother gradually proves stronger, because of the tie of blood. The son decides to leave his soul in his mother's hands, and, like his elder brother, go for passion. .

Yes this is exactly what happens. .Between Miriam and his mother, he chooses his mother and goes to Clara for passion.

[amalia1985]

I think that the word "tragedy" which Lawrence uses speaks for itself...The tragedy of those who cannot distinguish the boundaries between the feeling of love, the feeling of passion, and the feeling of possession.

[Quark]

Lawrence's letter made me realize how much William's story foreshadows Paul's life. Tragedy is a good word to describe the action in the story, too. I wouldn't necessarily have called it that without Lawrence saying so himself. I actually thought that Paul was somewhat contented with his life, even if he is horribly unsuccessful with his interpersonal relationships. Tragedy, though, is an apt description. Even if Paul isn't totally aware of it. I think drawing a parallel between William and Paul is part of what helps me to see Paul's life tragically. William's death is certainly tragic. Once we can see Paul's personal failures in that light, I think Paul becomes a more tragic figure.

It's been a while since I read the ending, though. I might reinterpret all of this when I get there.

[Janine]

I think that the word "tragedy" which Lawrence uses speaks for itself...The tragedy of those who cannot distinguish the boundaries between the feeling of love, the feeling of passion, and the feeling of possession.

amalia, this is very well put and articulated. Yes, the tragedy of this story does indeed speak for itself...tragic in many ways to the various individuals.

Quark, I agree. It is a very tragic book all around. Glad the letter shed some definitive insight for all of you. It is always good to hear it right from the author's own mouth. That should be an accurate source, if any. I am sure I can dig up other things Lawrence said about his novel/novels in the letters, just so many to wade through it is not easy research. I long to read those letters because they seem to enlighten me to the whole mind-set of Lawrence and his intentions for his body of work as it changes over the years. The letters are truly personal and fascinating. But alas, there is only so much time in the day...sigh sigh...
Which brings me to your subject of final analysis of the book's ending. I too am not there yet, this being my repeat visit to the book, so when I read it again I am sure my perspectives will have altered somewhat. I think you last statement about seeing Wiliam in a different and more tragic prespective after we look at Paul's own life/tragedy is a really good one....very accurate.

manolia, last but not least! hi, notice I am working back on these posts - Quark, amalia and now you!

I forgot to comment on the letter you posted, thanx for reminding it.

Oh no, problem. I can always wait. Just thought you might have missed it, since that post was not too long or did not seem to stand out at all.

But as her sons grow up she selects them as lovers - first the eldest, then the second...

I liked this explanation. I don't take it literaly, though. I think it means that Mrs Morel places her affection on William first and after his death concetrates on Paul. She depends firstly on her first born, she clings on him and when he is no longer available she turns to Paul.

I don't take it literally, either. I think it represents this in the mind of the sons and the mother, but not truly Freudian with the desire for sexual union, as we have been discussing. I feel it is as you pointed out in your next few paragraphs but somewhere along the line this got excessive and obsessive in the mother. She could not let the son's go...yes, she clings to William and then when he is gone she clings to Paul even harder, I believe. Mother's who are truly normal know when to let go of their offspring. Baby birds are pushed from the nest and have to learn to fly and eventually do fly away from their mother's to start their own families. In a normal environment with loving mother and loving father having a loving relationship the whole family flourishes and is whole as a result. All of the Morel children are effected by this lost of normalacy in their environment...even the girls(girl), I believe. First off, parents who always are fighting and opposing each other do not provide a healthy family life with security and a sense of peace and understanding so that those members either go onto similiar lives or break away and finally rebell altogether from convention. Many wife beaters go on to have children who turn into wife beaters. History can repeat itself and it does often, too often. What I am trying to say is much damage is done unconsciously to the children of such a combatant husband and wife.

But when they come to manhood, they can't love, because their mother is the strongest power in their lives, and holds them. As soon as the young men come into contact with women, there's a split. William gives his sex to a fribble, and his mother holds his world. But the split kills him, because he doesn't know where he is.

It seems to me that William and Paul lead parallel lives (at least their love lives are alike) up to a certain point.

Somewhat true, I think, but don't you see Paul emulating his older brother and looking up to him and then following in his footsteps with the 'passion' aspects of the novel, and yet still, this is not the right path for Paul to choose. There are too reasons for that - to begin with it is not really Paul's path to follow and second he still can't break from the mother at the end, even though she has died. The bond is too strong.

The next son gets a woman who fights for his soul -- fights the mother.The battle goes on between the mother and the girl, with the son as object. The mother gradually proves stronger, because of the tie of blood. The son decides to leave his soul in his mother's hands, and, like his elder brother, go for passion.

Yes this is exactly what happens...Between Miriam and his mother, he chooses his mother and goes to Clara for passion.

So Miriam, in a sense, represented his soul or spiritual side, and she is left behind, with his mother winning the final battle between them, don't you think?

[Quark]

I don't take it literally, either. I think it represents this in the mind of the sons and the mother, but not truly Freudian with the desire for sexual union, as we have been discussing. I feel it is as you pointed out in your next few paragraphs but somewhere along the line this got excessive and obsessive in the mother. She could not let the son's go...yes, she clings to William and then when he is gone she clings to Paul even harder, I believe. Mother's who are truly normal know when to let go of their offspring. Baby birds are pushed from the nest and have to learn to fly and eventually do fly away from their mother's to start their own families. In a normal environment with loving mother and loving father having a loving relationship the whole family flourishes and is whole as a result. All of the Morel children are effected by this lost of normalacy in their environment...even the girls(girl), I believe. First off, parents who always are fighting and opposing each other do not provide a healthy family life with security and a sense of peace and understanding so that those members either go onto similiar lives or break away and finally rebell altogether from convention. Many wife beaters go on to have children who turn into wife beaters. History can repeat itself and it does often, too often. What I am trying to say is much damage is done unconsciously to the children of such a combatant husband and wife.

Yes, I'd hate to be the family psychologist for the Morels, but I will say that circumstances probably had more of an effect on Paul and Mrs Morel's relationship than did any inherent mother-son affection. The troublesome home life combined with William's death brought them closer together. Paul and his mother's personal traits only exacerbate the problem. Mrs. Morel is very controlling and possessive, and Paul is far too sensitive to resist her influence. The mother-son relationship does become weirdly sexual at times, but not because of real affection. It takes this uncomfortable turn because of the problems at home and Paul's susceptibility to his mother's control.

[Janine]

Yes, I'd hate to be the family psychologist for the Morels, but I will say that circumstances probably had more of an effect on Paul and Mrs Morel's relationship than did any inherent mother-son affection. The troublesome home life combined with William's death brought them closer together. Paul and his mother's personal traits only exacerbate the problem. Mrs. Morel is very controlling and possessive, and Paul is far too sensitive to resist her influence. The mother-son relationship does become weirdly sexual at times, but not because of real affection. It takes this uncomfortable turn because of the problems at home and Paul's susceptibility to his mother's control.

Quark, Absolutely, they would be a good case for a psychologist - a real challenge. The letter I was hunting for I still have not located but in it this is the essense I believe. Lawrence is stating to someone (a close friend) that he has had a very unusually close relationship to his mother - almost as if they were husband and wife. I think he actually uses those words or like a marriage. Don't quote me on this but I will try hard to find this very revealing letter. I should have marked the page when I first read it since I thought it was highly significant. I don't think that Paul or the model for Paul (Lawrence, himself) had what we could term a normal relationship with his mother.
Good point you bring up, Quark, is that given their separate needs and personalities Paul is so sensitive and subject to submission to his mother's hold on him. I do think much affect exists but I think that also the boys felt they were filling in for the failure of the father to form a close bond to their mother. Just as a mother might make up for a son not having a father and overcompensate I think her the father is absent most of the time and especially from the mother - therefore the situation is condusive to this sort of off-balance odd closeness with the mother and her sons.

[amalia1985]

Yes, Janine, I agree with you. It is something that can be often seen in "real" life, as well. The husband is lost,(gone or dead), and the mother who happens to have a son clings to him, as if he was her only survival, if I can put it that way. It is to be expected, pain brings a lot with it, but it is then that one can refer to that thin red line which I have already mentioned.

[manolia]

I think that the word "tragedy" which Lawrence uses speaks for itself...The tragedy of those who cannot distinguish the boundaries between the feeling of love, the feeling of passion, and the feeling of possession.

Very well put

Baby birds are pushed from the nest and have to learn to fly and eventually do fly away from their mother's to start their own families.

I liked that parallel

What I am trying to say is much damage is done unconsciously to the children of such a combatant husband and wife.

Yes, very true. And the fact that Mrs Morel tried (and succeeded) in alienating her husband from her children is one of the outcomes. It is very hard when the children have to choose sides (haven't you said something to that effect on an earlier post?).

So Miriam, in a sense, represented his soul or spiritual side, and she is left behind, with his mother winning the final battle between them, don't you think?

Yes exactly. That's is why Mrs Morel hates Miriam. They are fighting for the same thing: Paul's soul - spiritual side. And Mrs Morel has no problem with Clara (final verdict ). She is very kind with her on their first meeting. She merely feels sorry for her because she knows that Paul will soon abandon her.