Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

Is this the thread Janine!!!!

I'm gonna see if I can find an online copy or from my library...and maybe read a long slowly....poor Don Quixote lays unfinished in the nightstand drawer.

Grace, I was wondering what had happened to you. Lit Net has Sons and Lovers online. I however will not be reading along. As soon as I finish Updike's Rabbit, Run (I have about 40 pages to go) I will return to Don Quixote. I have to finish it. I promised Quasimodo I would start a Virgil's Aeneid reading group around Christmas time.

[Janine]

Is this the thread Janine!!!!

I'm gonna see if I can find an online copy or from my library...and maybe read a long slowly....poor Don Quixote lays unfinished in the nightstand drawer.

Grace, this is 'the place' - the right thread indeed! We have not gotten too far yet (although so far, so good, and very enthusiastic from everyone); so do come and read along slowly, and when you are able between school work. Don't feel pressured in the least to participate - do so when you can, and only if you can. Don't want to see you miss anymore important Shakespeare classes. College has to be your priorty. I understand fully.
Yes, poor DQ lays unfinished, but you can pick it up after, hopefully. DQ is a patient man!

PS: I will email you more tomorrow. I am tired out now. Long day! J

[Janine]

Hi everyone! I finished up Chapter 2 (reading like a snail; sorry) last night and had a few thoughts about it, but I have to go out for the rest of the day and into the evening, so I will try to post something later tonight. I thought it was an interesting chapter with the huband being nursed back to health by his the wife. The complex feelings that passed between them was something to think about. This story has no easy answers and is so realistic in that way. People have complex emotions and feeling and even act in ways they would probably not have predicted possible.

I also, found of keen interest, the scene when Gertrude looks down on Paul and ponders about the child and just how much he has perceived of the unhappiness existing in the house - even as far back as her womb. Also we see the first signs of her wishing he was still attached to her physically. When I return I will try to quote specific parts that indicate various things I found to be of interest such as this part about the child in her arms looking up to her. This passage was like nothing I have ever read before. I had forgotten about it but now knowing the full story it particularly stood out to me. Funny how we miss so much on our first readings.

I just came to the part when the youngest son is born. At this time it seems the family strife has calmed down to more of a whimper. I wonder if that is why he seems less affected by turmoil and is the one child to be drawn to his father.

[amalia1985]

I would venture to say that he could sense the tension between the two parents and -consciously or unconsiously-desires to retain a balance, perhaps.

[Janine]

I would venture to say that he could sense the tension between the two parents and -consciously or unconsiously-desires to retain a balance, perhaps.

amalia, that is an interesting idea, but I think if we are talking about the youngest child's relationship to it's father, I don't know if he, as a small toddler, would know, consciously or even unconsciously that his parents were of need a balance and attempt to retain it by going to his father. It seems to me that that child might just be drawn to him naturally. Perhaps he will grow up to be more like the father. The older children openingly seem to favor their father. I believe it stated that the girl did not like him at all. My theory is that by now the mother and father have calmed their relationship and are more co-operative with each other or more calm around the children and so the father has been more loving towards this child, who seems to be attracted to him. I think that earlier the mother turned the other children away from the father's attentions, by putting him down and also just by her action of opposing him. The father is no saint and I have felt more sympathy at times for the woman trying to raise her children when the father drinks away the little money they do have. Her womanly, motherly struggle is certainly commendable, but at the same time her harsh defensive attitude towards her husband, has aligned the children very much with her. It is awful when children are forced between two parents this way and they eventually end up taking 'sides'. No one wins in this kind of domestic war. By the end of the book you will see the effects this kind of homelike, with so much domestic inballance, and forced loyalties, does harm to all the members, the effect on Paul, being the most singled out in the book and prominent.

[Pensive]

Hi everyone, I am sorry for having come late in the discussion but the last few days have been a kind of busy.

I read Sons and Lovers a few months back, so forgive me if my memory seems to be fooling me during all this discussion and feel free to correct me.

Janine's question has struck me as a really good one, but complex. Yes, Janine, I personally find it really hard to take side with either Mr. Morel or Mrs. Morel alone. Still, most of the times I feel sympathy for the both. In that time, it was pretty common for miners to drink heavily (I think it's quite natural, though it can be controlled, to get attracted towards alcohol when you work so hard the whole day). If anyone is interested, she/he might want to try Chase The Wind which deals about mining and mining problems more deeply. It's not 'great' writing when compared to a classic like Sons and Lovers but still quite good. Anyway, back on topic, I think Mr. Morel was not alone in that, and for this I felt pity for both the miners themselves as well as their wives. Their wives were not only suffering, they themselves were having probably even more difficult time. They say alcohol eats you and tear you apart...

This thing is really interesting about Lawrence that his books raise questions which are very interesting yet so complex...there is this one which has been bugging my mind as well (wanted to start a separate thread about it in General Chat) but now as we are discussing the book, I hope to ask it when the right time comes.

[amalia1985]

I was referring to the youngest child's later reaction towards the father, but even a toddler can "feel" the "atmosphere" in a household. I think your theory is right, Janine, regarding the couple's behaviour. The children have been "forced" to take the mother's child and that is something that I find clearly negative, in terms of Mrs. Morel's behaviour. This will become quite evident in her various involvements in Paul's relationships with both Miriam and Clara.

[manolia]

Nice posts everyone
I have finished the first part of the book..since everyone seems that has already finished the book or is reading it for the second time, i won't be posting "Spoiler alerts". I hope this is ok with everyone??

[amalia1985]

I wouldn't mind spoilers, manolia. Is it not a wonderful book?

[Pensive]

Nice posts everyone
I have finished the first part of the book..since everyone seems that has already finished the book or is reading it for the second time, i won't be posting "Spoiler alerts". I hope this is ok with everyone??

Personally, I have no problem with that.

[Janine]

Hi everyone, I am sorry for having come late in the discussion but the last few days have been a kind of busy.

I read Sons and Lovers a few months back, so forgive me if my memory seems to be fooling me during all this discussion and feel free to correct me.

Janine's question has struck me as a really good one, but complex. Yes, Janine, I personally find it really hard to take side with either Mr. Morel or Mrs. Morel alone. Still, most of the times I feel sympathy for the both. In that time, it was pretty common for miners to drink heavily (I think it's quite natural, though it can be controlled, to get attracted towards alcohol when you work so hard the whole day). If anyone is interested, she/he might want to try Chase The Wind which deals about mining and mining problems more deeply. It's not 'great' writing when compared to a classic like Sons and Lovers but still quite good. Anyway, back on topic, I think Mr. Morel was not alone in that, and for this I felt pity for both the miners themselves as well as their wives. Their wives were not only suffering, they themselves were having probably even more difficult time. They say alcohol eats you and tear you apart...

This thing is really interesting about Lawrence that his books raise questions which are very interesting yet so complex...there is this one which has been bugging my mind as well (wanted to start a separate thread about it in General Chat) but now as we are discussing the book, I hope to ask it when the right time comes.

Glad to see you back, Pensive. Glad you see the problems as complex. I don't think anything in any of Lawrence's novels has an easy or set solution. Lawrence was showing both sides of the relationship and he takes much time to go into the characters of each - the man and the woman. In fact, one of my commentary books points this out - that he takes a number of chapter to discuss their intricate relationship and reveal many things about it. There are many subtlites I had not at first percieved on my initial reading of the novel. I do feel sorry for the plight of the miners - it has to be a hellish job and perhaps they could not go directly home until the did some 'unwinding' in a pub. According to what I have read, in my autobiograhies, about miners is to stop off for a few beers was quite natural and a part of that area's way of living. Mostly it was accepted behavior. I think that given the circumstances of Lawrence's unusual closeness to his mother and her control over him at the time he wrote the novel he felt this way about his father and therefore he painted his character of Mr. Morel (blantantly fashioned after his father) to be more exaggerated in the drinking aspect. In the story we can then percieve that he did indeed develop into having a drinking problem. It is quite sad when this happens to a person. I also know an few people with the addiction and their lives have been difficult. One is reformed and the other struggles with this every day of their lives. For poor Mr. Morel it must have been hard because he did continue to be the bread winner and provide for the family so one has to feel for his position in that family. His wife at times in the text is overly harsh and snide with him I think. I could quote some lines but if you really read that text again you will see what I mean. There was definitely a lot of animosity between them and on her part a lot of repulsion and resentment towards him. These two people should never have married because they truly could not live peacably or lovingly together. They were just too different in temperment and manor and expectations.

Pensive, do ask the question. That is what this discussion is for. I would love to hear and discuss the issue and the question.


To Everyone, glad to see you all her and reading...at any speed....fine with me....

Manolia, do not worry about being behind. I am more behind than you. I did read the book before, so don't worry, at this point, about posting spoilers. Only one who did not read the book, who might be reading along, is Grace and I told her, reading the posts, might spoil the book ending for her. I appologise to all, since last night I went out till 10PM and so it was late when time to read my book a little in bed before sleep. I snuck back to my other Lawrence book, "The Plumed Serpent" to read one chapter. I was afraid I would forget it and I have only a few chapters to finish that novel, so I hated to let it go too long.

You all might be calling me 'the leader', but I can't do this thread all alone or the short story one. I am so glad to see you all coming in today and posting interesting things. Thanks! It takes the pressure off of me to keep things rolling. Do keep posting everyone, especially since I am behind in my (refresher) second reading. If you post questions, no doubt the story will come back to me.

Amalia, I am glad you see my point with the child and the parents. I am sure the child does feel the tension in the household, but probably not as much as the older children did when the parents were at the height of passion/even anger at each other. Yes, when you reach the ending one's perspective on the mother/son relationship does alter greatly. If you read anything about Lawrence's real parents you would alter your perception even more so.
I think after reading three biographies that is why I think this way trying to be fair to both parents. I got a more realistic view of the two characters now in my mind and cannot dismiss them. Every critic I have read says that "Sons and Lovers" is basically autobiographical. Lawrence, himself, said it contained all his youth. Hard to divorce one from the other. So much of Lawrence surfaces in the character of Paul. The story has that intimate and personal quality, as well.

Virgil, the idea of the fire, fireplace, firey sunsets, etc, that we have been discussing in the short story interested me greatly. I started to notice many passages in the second chapter of S&L, using the fire images, also. They are numerous. I do agree with your passages in the short story posts about the fire and the idea now of the mining community not being entirely dismal or horrid. I should amend my saying so earlier. The mining community is in direct contrast at this point with the natural environment and therefore, you are correct in saying, that this begins some of the duality that inhabits much of Lawrence's work to follow. Later on Lawrence pursues, more negatively, the effects of industrialisation in the world, more so than he did in these earlier books. I do find that he writes more menacing about the pits and the destruction of the land even back then at times, but it does become a source of the family's existence and support, so we can't see it as a negative thing, entirely. Once again the whole subject is presented in a complex manor and with no real solution to the environmental issues is ever truly offered. For instance, if we don't have the jobs for the minors in the ugly pits then how would they support their family. Again, this supports the fact that the wife of Morel often 'puts him down' saying he is dirty. Yet she accepts the money he has earned willingly(his job is the reason he is dirty with coal soot), to support herself and her children.

[Virgil]

Virgil, the idea of the fire, fireplace, firey sunsets, etc, that we have been discussing in the short story interested me greatly. I started to notice many passages in the second chapter of S&L, using the fire images, also. They are numerous. I do agree with your passages in the short story posts about the fire and the idea now of the mining community not being entirely dismal or horrid. I should amend my saying so earlier. The mining community is in direct contrast at this point with the natural environment and therefore, you are correct in saying, that this begins some of the duality that inhabits much of Lawrence's work to follow. Later on Lawrence pursues, more negatively, the effects of industrialisation in the world, more so than he did in these earlier books. I do find that he writes more menacing about the pits and the destruction of the land even back then at times, but it does become a source of the family's existence and support, so we can't see it as a negative thing, entirely. Once again the whole subject is presented in a complex manor and with no real solution to the environmental issues is ever truly offered. For instance, if we don't have the jobs for the minors in the ugly pits then how would they support their family. Again, this supports the fact that the wife of Morel often 'puts him down' saying he is dirty. Yet she accepts the money he has earned willingly(his job is the reason he is dirty with coal soot), to support herself and her children.

Glad I could help Janine. It is interesting to note that the one who is connected to blood knowledge in the novel is Mr. Morel, the one who is the miner. One way of looking at the novel is how Paul must shuck off his mother's consciousness to grow into himself. Despite his love for her, her mental consciousness that he has absorbed hinders his romantic relationships.

[Janine]

Glad I could help Janine. It is interesting to note that the one who is connected to blood knowledge in the novel is Mr. Morel, the one who is the miner. One way of looking at the novel is how Paul must shuck off his mother's consciousness to grow into himself. Despite his love for her, her mental consciousness that he has absorbed hinders his romantic relationships.

Virgil - yes, very well put. I knew that about the father and the blood philosophy part. Yes, he did eventually grow past his mother but as this book closes we don't see that yet, do we? I have not yet gotten to the end, but as I recall it it left off without a true solution or answer.

[amalia1985]

When we are able to trace the autobiographical hints in a novel, our attention is turned to themes and moments that we may not have noticed otherwise.

It adds a certain "magic" to our reading and we begin to think differently regarding characters and incidents,because we know it's not a simple "fiction", but something that goes much deeper, communicatinf hidden wishes, fears and perhaps, desires that things might have been different.

Who knows, writing is always escaping for me, at least.

[Janine]

Amalia, they always say to 'write what you know of' and it is so true. Lawrence certainly did that and he dug down deeply, to reveal people who were fully 'fleshed out' & real and complex. His characters are all completely believable in his early novels, especially.
I have read now past Chapter 2. I am to the part when the oldest brother burned his letter and has now gone off to London to work.
How did people feel about the mother's feelings when she had to let him go? I felt that it was not too untypical of what we now call 'separation anxiety' for a mother with her first born child. I know many mothers who have gone through these mixed feelings before and feel threatened by losing their son to the world. I know I went through it when my son went into the Army National Guard at a young age - I thought my heart was breaking. Anyway, I would like to know what you think of it and of her protective ways with her oldest son in general.