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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #436
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Compliment? No, I think I'm a little too self-centered to give those.
    You are? --- well at least you admit it. Well, then I am just self-centered enough to withdrawal my 'thanks'!


    I know how that gets. I'm lucky if I can keep my surfaces clean. Usually, when I get to the computer table there's still a pile of books and papers there, and I just swipe my arm across it to clear some space. Next to me there's a huge and growing mound of clutter that nearly touches the ceiling of books, clothes, appliances, and even an empty aquarium. I have no cleaning impulse, though. After I swipe the stuff off my computer table, I just pick up my mouse and keyboard and forget about the pile.
    As you can see I am making wonderful progress. I am actually hating every minute of this cleaning/organising. I feel so much anxiety right now and like I am trapped in a big mess. How it got away from me like this is beyond me. I am making a snails progress so far. Just organising some stray books and things. Putting stuff where it should be. Of course, due to my growing restless anxiety, I just had to take a break and check the computer. That is why I am here. Still don't have the new monitor hooked up.


    Some of the discussion has gone in a circle, but I don't think that's because of the structure of the thread. The problem we sometimes have over there is that we simply don't know each other yet. We use words in different ways and then can't understand each other--right now I think Virgil and I are bickering about the meaning of the term "heroic". Another problem is we form some idea, then realize that it's defective in some way and then are afraid to change our minds because it would make us look less than perspicacious. Also, some of the ideas in that book are difficult to respond to with short answers. It's a tough book with lots of subtleties. And, it's difficult to read; half of any discussion on a Virginia Woolf novel has to be a reconstruction of just what literally happened. Combined, the difficulty of the book and the anxiety associated with posting make the thread seem forbidding and difficult to engage in. So, in the end, the fact that we've had 276 posts in that discussion is pretty encouraging. It's especially impressive when you look at the fact that most of the activity on LitNet is focused on creative writing and vague, open-ended opinions. To actually sustain voluntary involvement in a focused literary topic and push towards reasonable conclusion is encouraging to say the least. That's not to belittle creative writing and sharing opinions in any way. Nor is this to antagonize those who haven't participated to the full extent in the To The Lighthouse thread (people like Janine, for example). I just wanted to defend, what I think, is the best part of LitNet. Could organization have made it better? Perhaps, I'm not the person to ask about that, though: think about how I clean my desk.
    Probably I have not checked it enough or read all 200 plus posts. I just have not been with-it this month. It might just be me. Funny because several years back I read "To The Lighthouse" and was dying to discuss it with someone. Then I reread it for this discussion and I felt overwhelmed with the book even though I knew the story well by then. I knew the characters, too, so I don't know why I felt overwhelmed - maybe just being the month it is and other things distracted me. I did, however, notice that you and Virgil were arguing about Mrs. Ramsey and that 6 letter word - 'heroic' ...actually I was getting a little tired of that argument. I think you both should just accept that the other has another opinion of her. Is it really that important to understanding the story or the essense of the story? I actually probably do agree with you since somewhat (but then I am a bit confused by now on the whole idea and question). I do think 'heroic' is pushing it a little far with Mrs. R, but I don't think my good friend, V is going to change his opinion. Enough is enough - you guys should come out in the ring and shake hands!



    No, I didn't see the "Women in Love" thread. That is to say, I saw it but didn't look into it. I was thinking about taking part in the talk but I turned coward when I went to buy the book. The version they had at Barnes and Noble was $15.00--a little much for a book printed 90 years ago. And, invariably the cashier is always a cute girl and I didn't want to go through the line with a book called "Women in Love"--something seemed a little unmanly about it. The problem was compounded by the fact that I was already buying a book of Auden poems. I didn't think my chances of appearing suave and masculine with both a gay poet and a novel called "Women in Love" was favorable, so I decided to cut the risk in half and only get one. Usually, in that situation, I try to compensate by getting some sports magazine or pornographic calender, but at that point I didn't have enough money to reaffirm my gender. Maybe if we do some Hemingway or Fitzgerald next time I won't have that problem (although, Tender is the Night sounds a little questionable).
    You are hilarious! I hope at least you got a date with the cute girl or scored some points for later. Glad you were not buying any Oscar Wilde although women seem to like him greatly.
    Oh, that is a shame. I got my copy of WIL from Amazon and paid $10. new - well there was shipping, but if you got more Amazon stuff to add up to $25, it was free shipping. I do that sometimes. Now the Cambridge addition is down to $8 something, I see. I had wanted that one actually, with the white cover, shows just the bodies (dressed) b/w of two women. I bought the earlier Cambridge addition, which probably is the same. If you still want to buy it, now might be the time to do so on Amazon. Forget B&N - I hardly buy anything there anymore - new books are too expensive from B&N. $15 is too dear for me, too!


    No objections to that. I think I'll continue doing to the Chekhov thread in the same random way I've been going about it. The problem there isn't organization; it the fact that there's nothing to organize. We need some more participation before I'm really going to come up with a strategy. Right now, I just want to come up with some topic that people will find entertaining.

    Sure - you have your style and I have mine. I am always accepting of everyone and how they go about it all, and their opinions especially, not to say we don't disagree on this thread from time to time also...that makes for a good lively stimulating conversation, in my opinion. I will probably post more quotes and talk about them in Chekhov and in here when we do the next story. Like in Chekhov, the end of the book or the part with the river - haven't gotten to that yet. No objections - right? Yes, we sure do need some participants....and woe is me...school is starting soon for many...so don't expect a rush to the Chekhov thread ....unless they are studying his work in college or HS.
    Last edited by Janine; 08-31-2007 at 03:27 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #437
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Here is some commentary I scanned from my book by Michael Black - book is D.H.Lawrence The Early Fiction

    This will finalize the story "The White Stocking"

    As in 'The Prussian Officer' the violence is intensely seen, its strange sounds heard. Lawrence enters fully into it, as something which he wants to realise. There is no deprecation: this is what the man feels, what he wants, what he has it in him to do. But there is something else in him equally real, and more powerful: his sense of pity springing from his sense of responsibility for her:
    But he had seen her standing there, a piteous, horrified thing, and he turned his face aside in shame and nausea. He went and sat heavily in his chair, and a curious ease, almost like sleep, came over his brain. (PO(C) 162)
    When he has returned the jewels to Adams, there is a poignant reconciliation, made more sweet by the tears and the blood:
    "I'm sleeping down here," he said. "Go you to bed."
    In a few moments she lifted her tear-stained, swollen face and looked at him with eyes all forlorn and pathetic.A great flash of anguish went over his body. He went over, slowly, and very gently took her in his hands. She let herself be taken. Then as she lay against his shoulders, she sobbed aloud:
    "I never meant -"
    "My love - my little love -" he cried, in anguish of spirit, holding her in his arms. (PO(C) 164)
    The psychological penetration in the story is very remarkable; especially the challenges offered by Elsie, Adams's greedy opportunism, Whiston's slow wrath. The whole recollected sequence of the party, and the climactic present day of reckoning, where the morning prompts the long flashback and the evening follows and clinches it - it is all brilliantly constructed and, as a succession of actions and states of consciousness, imagined as only genius can imagine. Yet it has a limitation. I would not want to offer the conventional criticism that it is a day-dream of masculine dominance, since the story seems to me to be truthful, and faithful to the nature of the imagined people. It also renders with grace and assurance a stream of notations well beyond the reach of other writers. And in any case, Elsie's dance more than half-hints that neither violence nor tenderness can finally quell the spirit in her: something is invoked and released which might be more powerful than Lawrence's ostensible moral, the position where he wants to end, that 'within his grasp, she could dart about excitingly', that 'he was the permanent basis from which she took these little flights into nowhere'. Whiston puts this something more coarsely when in his anger he calls her a 'stray-running little *****': there he betrays a fear which may be natural, well-founded and not merely angry. *****es run astray as part of nature:so the ending of the story may not be entirely an easy 'happy ever after'; rather a moment of reconciliation in a process which recur.
    Yet though one can point to such implications, one must admit that the whole drive of the story is meant to confirm the moral: that Whiston's masculine strength can from now on cradle Elsie's feminine waywardness and charm, even if it has to offer a salutary violence at the right moments. A more important criticism might be that the sheer achievement of the story tells against if: brilliance is created by Lawrence's
    complete knowledge of these people, whom he has created and who pose no challenge to that domination since they are not a mystery to him. He sees right through them and all round them; and while we are startled, touched, and impressed by all that he can see (more than we could see ourselves) it threatens to leave his characters finished, closed off, and known. 'New Eve and Old Adam' challenges that he can't see all around, so that he will have to embark on his major fictions in order to comprehend it.
    I have one other part to scan but for now chew on this and digest what it says. It makes sense to me.
    Last edited by Janine; 09-01-2007 at 11:17 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  3. #438
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    That criticism sounds very similar to what we've been saying. At least, the part about the limited scope of the narrative, and the fact that the ending isn't much of a conclusion. I came in late, so I don't know if we talked about the gender relations in the sense they're brought up here.

    Sorry I haven't posted in couple of days. I left and wasn't able to secure my own computer--rare as it is, it does still happen in the 21st century that someone is without a cpu.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  4. #439
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    That criticism sounds very similar to what we've been saying. At least, the part about the limited scope of the narrative, and the fact that the ending isn't much of a conclusion. I came in late, so I don't know if we talked about the gender relations in the sense they're brought up here.

    Sorry I haven't posted in couple of days. I left and wasn't able to secure my own computer--rare as it is, it does still happen in the 21st century that someone is without a cpu.
    Yes, I agree, Quark, - the critic mostly repeats ideas we had hashed around, but now they seem to come into better focus in the way he presents these ideas, so I feel it helps clarify things a bit,; this is why I posted this commentary. It sort of recaps everything and brings it together coherently.
    Yes, I did notice you departure, but thought you must have been enjoying the weekend or doing other things and taking a break. We all need that from time to time. Yes, not too long ago I had a similiar problem, being without my internet connection for a week. I had to go to my local library and use their computers, which was limited in time and convenience. It does happen sometimes in this century.

    Well, onto the Chekhov thread... I see you posted there today also, and then after, I will check out 'Lighthouse'.

    I will try and read the Chrysanthanmums story tonight before I go to sleep. Hopefully I will finish it up tonight and we can move onto this new discussion soon.
    Last edited by Janine; 09-02-2007 at 02:49 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #440
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Alright, I've read the story. I actually thought it was much better than "White Stocking". This one is complex and filled with pathos--a lot of symbolism too. It should be a good discussion.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  6. #441
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Alright, I've read the story. I actually thought it was much better than "White Stocking". This one is complex and filled with pathos--a lot of symbolism too. It should be a good discussion.
    Hi Quark, you are one step ahead of me. I have not read it yet, but will try to tonight. I would think it was a very good story, since it is suppose to be one of Lawrence's most acclaimed. Now you have my curiousity and I will have to read it.

    I have been busy cleaning and guess what? I have found things I lost ages ago. Funny how that happens. Artists sure do accumulate a lot of stuff. I still do not have my new monitor connected, too tired out now, but definitely will do so tomorrow. Desk is ready now - clean as a whistle! That is just one corner and more must be done in the rest of the room, bathroom and bedroom - there is hope now; I better take advantage when I am in this mood. Seemed slow on here tonight anyway...probably the holiday weekend.

    I hope to post something tomorrow. I know the story will be great.

    Today (revision), Monday update:

    Hi Quark and everyone, I read the new story last night and liked it very much. Much to think about in that story and I will probably comment later or maybe even tonight. I would like to re-read the story and mark some passages that particularly impressed me.
    Last edited by Janine; 09-03-2007 at 02:20 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  7. #442
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Sorry, everyone, I am having some computer difficulties (really some annoying things to iron out with my new monitor and settings, and also need to go buy a new mouse) and will be back soon to start this story off. If anyone else wants to start it, feel free. Just trying to get this thread back on the first page.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  8. #443
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I skimmed the story over the weekend. I need to re-read it before I feel comfortable discussing it. But I'm almost ready.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #444
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Yes, Virgil - same with me. I read the Chekhov or actually reading it now - nearly done and I forget the Lawrence story so I will have to re-read it this weekend.
    Hey, Virgil, you are an engineer with countless computer hightech devices. Any ideas on how I can fix the brightness setting on this monitor. I am having a horrible time with it. I keep squinting. The front of the monitor has 4 buttons - a 'e' auto button, < and > buttons and Menu button.... and there is a page of instructions only an engineer would understand on using this menu. I pushed the first one and got automatic settings but that seemed to do nothing. One of the menus (last button) pulls up a window with brightness and contrast bars, but there seems to be no way to move them or adjust them. Also, f I change the DPI on my computer, will that make my type the size as it was before hooking up this monitor - It shrunk some and is hard to see. Any ideas or suggestions I would greatly appreciate. Thanks! Janine
    computers!
    Last edited by Janine; 09-06-2007 at 06:02 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  10. #445
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I'm afraid I'm completely computer illiterate, Janine. I assume there are buttons on the monitor that control that. I bet you've tried that. Is this a new monitor? Perhaps it's broken. Is there a number to call?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  11. #446
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    PC woes and new short story!

    Hahah -- you mean, Virgil, that obscure phone number they hide in the instruction booklet or the disc? I have not found it yet. I did get instructions from the kid at Staples on the button controls on the front panel, but I don't know if it still needs a driver from online - that is a possibility to function completely correctly. It is not as blinding today. No sunglasses needed! My son could not figure it out either but he was here in a whirl so he did not try very hard.
    TV is out of the box - since my son stopped by. It looks good - brandnew and untampered with. Inner box was perfect. He will come and hook up for me later, hopefully today.
    Did you read the Lawrence story again yet? I have not read it --- plan to do so on the weekend. Best I can do and hopefully post something on Monday.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  12. #447
    Metamorphosing Pensive's Avatar
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    Read Odour of the Chrysanthemum last night. Liked it very much. The story was emotional and striking. The part where Elizabeth's girl child asked her to smell the chrysanthemum but Lizzy said she no longer liked the smell, had a great effect on me. The emotions which arose in Elizabeth while seeing her husband's dead body were interesting, tinged with an unknown horror. I felt I had switched places with the protagonist (Elizabeth).

    I like it when Lawrence's focuses over miners' houses.
    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

  13. #448
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensive View Post
    Read Odour of the Chrysanthemum last night. Liked it very much. The story was emotional and striking. The part where Elizabeth's girl child asked her to smell the chrysanthemum but Lizzy said she no longer liked the smell, had a great effect on me. The emotions which arose in Elizabeth while seeing her husband's dead body were interesting, tinged with an unknown horror. I felt I had switched places with the protagonist (Elizabeth).

    I like it when Lawrence's focuses over miners' houses.
    Hi Pensive- so good to see you post. Glad you had read the story and liked it. I agree with all you said. I liked it very much too. Yes, I thought the same how Lawrence could make one feel the way that Elizabeth felt in such a situation. It was so well written and delved deeply below the surface of her emotional being. The part you mentioned with the smelling of the chysanthemuns seemed to me to be very significant.

    I want to reread the story this weekend and then comment on Monday. I am so busy right now with some new electronics and hooking things up and making them run correctly.

    Yes, this story relates well to Lawrence's own mother and father, although his father did not die, but he did have the serious accident in "Sons and Lovers", if you recall and his life was in danger daily, being a miner down in the pits. Mining stories were very personal to Lawrence.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  14. #449
    Metamorphosing Pensive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Hi Pensive- so good to see you post. Glad you had read the story and liked it. I agree with all you said. I liked it very much too. Yes, I thought the same how Lawrence could make one feel the way that Elizabeth felt in such a situation. It was so well written and delved deeply below the surface of her emotional being. The part you mentioned with the smelling of the chysanthemuns seemed to me to be very significant.
    Yes, indeed. It gives a lot away about Elizabeth's thoughts/feelings for her husband.

    I want to reread the story this weekend and then comment on Monday. I am so busy right now with some new electronics and hooking things up and making them run correctly.
    Take your time. I can understand how it is like to be busy...

    Yes, this story relates well to Lawrence's own mother and father, although his father did not die, but he did have the serious accident in "Sons and Lovers", if you recall and his life was in danger daily, being a miner down in the pits.
    Yes, I remember that incident very well plus Elizabeth also seems to resemble her mother in many ways and Elizabeth's husband his father. You are right, I can see now how Lawrence might have had got the inspiration of this story from his real life.

    Mining stories were very personal to Lawrence.
    And interesting for his readers. I for some unknown reason like mining stories a lot. Have read a couple of novels about it based on the area of Yorkshire (I think the mines were all around this area, right?), those were really interesting. It's a pity I have forgotten their title names. Would have liked to recommend them to you.
    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

  15. #450
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensive View Post
    Yes, indeed. It gives a lot away about Elizabeth's thoughts/feelings for her husband.


    Hi Pensive, sorry for not answering sooner. I went out for the day and had to buy a new mouse while I was at it. This one is driving me silly. I sure hope the new optical one wireless is easy to install. I am sick of installation headaches this week.
    Yes, I do agree whole-heartedly about Elizabeth. Lawrence really does well in a story with depth such as this one and how conflicted people are feeling in a situation like Elizabeth is experiencing, when they bring her dead husband home. It is an amazing scene, I think.

    Take your time. I can understand how it is like to be busy...
    Thanks for all your patience with me this week; you are so thoughful and sweet. I have so many distractions presently I can't keep my mind on these threads. I really appreciate you telling me to take my time and also appreciate that you read the story when you are busy yourself preparing for school.

    Yes, I remember that incident very well plus Elizabeth also seems to resemble her mother in many ways and Elizabeth's husband his father. You are right, I can see now how Lawrence might have had got the inspiration of this story from his real life.
    I knew you would be able to relate it to "S & L's" right away. I think it is very reminiscent of his parents and how they felt about each other - also conflicted. I read something short in one of my commentary books that suggested they were the models for this story. When I get settled a bit I will scan it to post. It is quite interesting and insightful. Also, if you noticed the mother of the husband she is very characteristic of the Lawrence's faternal grandmother. I thought he depicted her well in the story. I think for a time they lived with her. Did they do so in the novel? I can't remember that now and need that re-reading desperately, planned for the fall, sometime soon.


    And interesting for his readers. I for some unknown reason like mining stories a lot. Have read a couple of novels about it based on the area of Yorkshire (I think the mines were all around this area, right?), those were really interesting. It's a pity I have forgotten their title names. Would have liked to recommend them to you.
    I like them, too. You should eventually read "Women in Love". The mining plays a big role in that story, as well, being the profession of the management of the mines by the Crich family - father and son, Gerald - Gerald is one of the main characters.
    I like films about mining families and what they go through daily living with such danger.

    Pensive - thought you would like these photos -- these in the area where Lawrence lived and wrote about - first is Brinsley Colliery and second is Brinsley Colliery Headstocks.


    Last edited by Janine; 09-11-2007 at 02:26 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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