Summer '07 Reading: 'To The Lighthouse' by Virginia Woolf

[Janine]

Quark, excellent post. I have read it over several times. I am getting much from your answers to my questions. I feel sad though that the ending is that James now feels this affinity with his father and the sadness. I suppose it is realistic, as you later pointed out but the end then feels hopeless to me or perhaps it is not because now the father is united in the sadness and the isolation is broken or the two are bridged. I have not yet made up my mind about whether the ending has hope or not. It seems Lily is thinking about Mr. Ramsey and wanting him. I am not sure still exactly what that means either. The characters in the third part towards the end seem to be making an effort to connect personally to each other, whereas in the beginning section of the book they were so issolated. Let me know what your own thoughts would be on this idea and aspect of the book and the characters. Even Mr. Carmichael seems to connect more with characters around him now that he has become a successful poet again.
I have always been able to identify with Mr. Ramsey feeling he let his golden chances pass him by. I feel the same type of regret that he feels about not reaching the heights perhaps with his talents that he might have been able to reach when younger.

[Quark]

Alright, these questions are a little more difficult, and I don't have ready answers. You're going to have to bear with me while I feel my way through this.

Is the story sad? Well, I think we're supposed to feel sad. The story of the Ramsays is a tragedy that resonates with a lot of us. Is To The Lighthouse a completely depressing book? No, I wouldn't quite go that far--particularly if you're like me and you think Lily is the heroine. Some people do succeed in the story. Lily does finish her painting, and she has her vision. There's something positive about that. As for there being hope, it depends on whether you think the characters have improved or advanced in the third section. After Mrs. Ramsay dies, the characters lose the social link that Mrs. Ramsay was and they have only their own thoughts to think about. Remember the distinction I made between the superficial social world and the meaningful inner world? Well in the first section the characters are more worried about the social world, and in the third they have to contemplate the inner mind. Woolf tells us the impact of Mrs. Ramsay's death in similar terms when she says, "Her going was a reproach to them, gave a different twist to the world, so that they were led to protest, seeing their own prepossessions disappear, and clutch at them vanishing" (III, XI). Mrs. Ramsay's death makes them aware of that "wedge of darkness" and those "darker forces of life" that we talked about earlier. Whether this is an improvement or not I don't know. I think it's only a change. The end is pessimistic in that the characters cannot overcome the destructive forces in nature and their own isolation, but it's positive in that they become aware.

Wow, that's a messy ball of words that's going to take a long time to untangle. Sorry, that was the best I could do so quickly. If it didn't make sense, ask some question and I might be able to put it more coherently.

[Janine]

No, Quark, your post made perfect sense to me...it is not a "messy ball of words that's going to take a long time to untangle." It is good! you need not say "Sorry, that was the best I could do so quickly."...don't be sorry. Your effort, in answering all my questions, has been greatly appreciated and helped me better in my understanding of the characters in TTLH. I too, see Lily as a sort of heroine. But when Mrs. Ramsey was alive I did not see her that way. I think the story transfers to be central to Lily but then again perhaps it is a feeling that it is from the beginning or at least that so much of the story is through Lily's eyes and perception. She probably is the most objective of all the characters presented. She seems to be free also of the things that bog down the family. She is divorced from any great commitment but my question would be will she remain this way after the book ends? Will she remain in the independent woman role, or take over where Mrs. Ramsey left off. I can see that she would be able to handle Mr. Ramsey in a slightly different manner than Mrs. Ramsey had. What do you think of the idea that they could possibly connect in the future and even marry?
I can't write more now - there is lightening and I must shut down my computer and unplug. After my last horrid experience it is a must.

[plainjane]

Will she remain in the independent woman role, or take over where Mrs. Ramsey left off. I can see that she would be able to handle Mr. Ramsey in a slightly different manner than Mrs. Ramsey had. What do you think of the idea that they could possibly connect in the future and even marry?

Janine, that is exactly my impression. I felt as though Lily somehow strove to be Mrs. Ramsay, have her life, become her. Lily sort of hero worshipped Mrs. Ramsay and living her life would be the next step.
It sounds a bit creepy when put that way, but I did not find it that way in the book, it was..as though she was finishing what Mrs. Ramsay could not.

She would never ever have attempted to usurp Mrs. Ramsay in her lifetime, but once Mrs. Ramsay was dead it was as though Lily saw the next section of her own life mesh with the Ramsay family.

[Janine]

plainjane, yes - exactly - and your quote, directly from the book, does seem to verify or confirm it, doesn't it? Is this Lily's vision, do you think?

[Quark]

I too, see Lily as a sort of heroine. But when Mrs. Ramsey was alive I did not see her that way. I think the story transfers to be central to Lily but then again perhaps it is a feeling that it is from the beginning or at least that so much of the story is through Lily's eyes and perception. She probably is the most objective of all the characters presented. She seems to be free also of the things that bog down the family. She is divorced from any great commitment but my question would be will she remain this way after the book ends? Will she remain in the independent woman role, or take over where Mrs. Ramsey left off. I can see that she would be able to handle Mr. Ramsey in a slightly different manner than Mrs. Ramsey had. What do you think of the idea that they could possibly connect in the future and even marry?
I can't write more now - there is lightening and I must shut down my computer and unplug. After my last horrid experience it is a must.

Janine, that is exactly my impression. I felt as though Lily somehow strove to be Mrs. Ramsay, have her life, become her. Lily sort of hero worshipped Mrs. Ramsay and living her life would be the next step.
It sounds a bit creepy when put that way, but I did not find it that way in the book, it was..as though she was finishing what Mrs. Ramsay could not.

She would never ever have attempted to usurp Mrs. Ramsay in her lifetime, but once Mrs. Ramsay was dead it was as though Lily saw the next section of her own life mesh with the Ramsay family.

Lily is envious for some of what Mrs. Ramsay has. We can see she wants Mrs. Ramsay's self-assurance, objectivity, and vivacious character, but I don't think she really wants her life. Lily is a self-critical and so far unsuccessful artist when the story begins, so it's easy to understand that she would value these traits which would make it easier to create. Lily isn't interested in living Mrs. Ramsay's life, though. I don't think marriage, family, or charity is really what Lily wants in her life.

I should also say, Lily is fascinated with Mrs. Ramsay for another reason: her artistic value. In fact, the whole Ramsay family is of artistic value for Lily.

For all this, though, Lily may still be thinking about marriage. We're left to contemplate whether she and William Bankes will get together. They still remain friends to the end. And, in the third section Lily admits that she still loves him. If they do, however, I don't think their marriage would resemble anything like the Ramsays'.

[plainjane]

Janine, I'm not sure what quote you mean, I didn't quote in my last post [at least], but I know at the end when Lily was looking out over the sea and thinking step by step where Mr. Ramsay was, I received a strong impression of her wanting to make a life with him.

Quark, I didn't think of Lily as envious, at least not in any sly, strong sort of manner. I feel envious is too strong a word for how she felt. There was a natural longing within her for companionship, she saw Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay as almost parent-like figures, or at least Mrs. Ramsay as a figure to emulate, and that perhaps is part of her thinking so much about Mr. Ramsay after Mrs. R had died.
I do not think she was that interested in Bankes in the end, he seemed dismissed from her mind.

[Janine]

Janine, I'm not sure what quote you mean, I didn't quote in my last post [at least], but I know at the end when Lily was looking out over the sea and thinking step by step where Mr. Ramsay was, I received a strong impression of her wanting to make a life with him.

Quark, I didn't think of Lily as envious, at least not in any sly, strong sort of manner. I feel envious is too strong a word for how she felt. There was a natural longing within her for companionship, she saw Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay as almost parent-like figures, or at least Mrs. Ramsay as a figure to emulate, and that perhaps is part of her thinking so much about Mr. Ramsay after Mrs. R had died.
I do not think she was that interested in Bankes in the end, he seemed dismissed from her mind.

Yes, I agree - it was just an impression I got about how Lily was feeling about Mr. Ramsey. Somewhere she says she wants him. What did she mean by that? I will look up exact quote later. I don't think I got any sense of Bankes at all in the end. I did not think they had all that much connection to begin with. It seemed only to be in Mrs. Ramsey's mind and imagination that the two should ever marry. I never envisioned it for Lily, not with Bankes. And in the end Lily might only be entertaining the thought of domestic life as Mrs. Ramsey had it or think she could marry Mr. Ramsey and make things better. Women often do think this - that a second wife can go beyond what a first wife achieved. I think she is feeling this way and wondering how she could continue on in her footsteps, but develop more of a relationship, perhaps closer to Mr. Ramsey.

[Virgil]

Are you guys sure about that? I don't recall Lily ever desiring Mr. Ramsey. In fact i always thought the opposite. She was always scared of him. Perhaps scared is too strong a word. If not scared, then at least anxious. Can you find the quote for me if you still disagree.

[plainjane]

In the annotated version page 205....right after Lily ruminating over the Ramsay's relationship and their interaction...

And as if she had something she must share, yet could hardly leave her easel, so full her mind was of what she was thinking, of what she was seeing Lily went past Mr. Carmichael holding her brush to the edge of the lawn. Where was tat boat now? And Mr. Ramsay? She wanted him.

page 210

"He must have reached it," said Lily Briscoe aloud, feeling suddenly completely tired out. For the Lighthouse had become almost invisible, had melted away into a blue haze, and the effort of looking at it and the effort of thinking of him landing there, which both seemed to be one and the same effort, had stretched her body and mind to the utmost. Ah, but she was relieved. Whatever she had wanted to give him, when he left her that morning, she had given him at last.

Also before they left for the Lighthouse, there was interaction between Lily and Mr. Ramsay. Beginning on p.150...Lily hears Mr. Ramsay mutter under his breath the two words "Perished" and Alone". On p. 151

The empty places. Such were some of the parts, but how bring them together? she asked. As if any interruption would break the frail shape she was building on the table she turned her back to the window lest Mr. Ramsay should see her. She must escape somewhere, be alone somewhere.

It is then she remembers the painting she'd begun 10 years earlier. Later she paints the final unifying line through it...uniting, bringing of the parts together.
If Lily didn't care about Mr. Ramsay, she would not have bothered to turn away so he could not see her face.

On p. 152 he is pacing up and down outside her window she cannot concentrate with him there.
Later on p. 154-155 he wants sympathy so badly from someone, but she is so nervous around him...she would not be nervous if she didn't care on some level. Care what he thought of her. She is so nervous she cannot give him the sympathy he needs, and she castigates herself for that. If she didn't care about him, it would not bother her...she'd pass it off as nothing.

[Virgil]

I'll reply to that later Jane, when I get to those scenes.

But first I want to point out two more things about Mrs. Ramsey and why I believe she is the center of the novel. After the dinner scene, Woolf emphasizes the power that Mrs. Ramsey posesses. Here Mrs. Ramsey is thinking as she goes upstairs:

Her world was changing: they were still. The event had given her a sense of movement. All must be in order. She must get that right and that right, she thought, insensibly approving of the dignity of the trees’ stillness, and now again of the superb upward rise (like the beak of a ship up a wave) of the elm branches as the wind raised them. For it was windy (she stood a moment to look out). It was windy, so that the leaves now and then brushed open a star, and the stars themselves seemed to be shaking and darting light and trying to flash out between the edges of the leaves. Yes, that was done then, accomplished; and as with all things done, became solemn. Now one thought of it, cleared of chatter and emotion, it seemed always to have been, only was shown now and so being shown, struck everything into stability. They would, she thought, going on again, however long they lived, come back to this night; this moon; this wind; this house: and to her too. It flattered her, where she was most susceptible of flattery, to think how, wound about in their hearts, however long they lived she would be woven; and this, and this, and this, she thought, going upstairs, laughing, but affectionately, at the sofa on the landing (her mother’s); at the rocking-chair (her father’s); at the map of the Hebrides. All that would be revived again in the lives of Paul and Minta; “the Rayleys”—she tried the new name over; and she felt, with her hand on the nursery door, that community of feeling with other people which emotion gives as if the walls of partition had become so thin that practically (the feeling was one of relief and happiness) it was all one stream, and chairs, tables, maps, were hers, were theirs, it did not matter whose, and Paul and Minta would carry it on when she was dead.

It was "accomplished" echoeing what Lily says when she finishes her painting. Actually the word "accomplish" runs through the novel in several instances. For any college students out there reading this, the significance of that word in this novel would make a great term paper. Look at these lines:

They would, she thought, going on again, however long they lived, come back to this night; this moon; this wind; this house: and to her too. It flattered her, where she was most susceptible of flattery, to think how, wound about in their hearts, however long they lived she would be woven; and this, and this, and this, she thought, going upstairs, laughing, but affectionately, at the sofa on the landing (her mother’s); at the rocking-chair (her father’s); at the map of the Hebrides.

And then these:

All that would be revived again in the lives of Paul and Minta; “the Rayleys”—she tried the new name over; and she felt, with her hand on the nursery door, that community of feeling with other people which emotion gives...

"Wound in their hearts" and "that community of feeling," is what Mrs. Ramsey brings to people. She connects people to community, which is something Lily cannot do.

Now look at this fabulous scene where she puts James and Cam to bed and where that skull is nailed to the wall:

She turned the handle, firmly, lest it should squeak, and went in, pursing her lips slightly, as if to remind herself that she must not speak aloud. But directly she came in she saw, with annoyance, that the precaution was not needed. The children were not asleep. It was most annoying. Mildred should be more careful. There was James wide awake and Cam sitting bolt upright, and Mildred out of bed in her bare feet, and it was almost eleven and they were all talking. What was the matter? It was that horrid skull again. She had told Mildred to move it, but Mildred, of course, had forgotten, and now there was Cam wide awake, and James wide awake quarrelling when they ought to have been asleep hours ago. What had possessed Edward to send them this horrid skull? She had been so foolish as to let them nail it up there. It was nailed fast, Mildred said, and Cam couldn’t go to sleep with it in the room, and James screamed if she touched it.

Then Cam must go to sleep (it had great horns said Cam)—must go to sleep and dream of lovely bed by her side. She could see the horns, Cam said, all over the room. It was true. Wherever they put the light (and James could not sleep without a light) there was always a shadow somewhere.

“But think, Cam, it’s only an old pig,” said Mrs Ramsay, “a nice black pig like the pigs at the farm.” But Cam thought it was a horrid thing, branching at her all over the room.

“Well then,” said Mrs Ramsay, “we will cover it up,” and they all watched her go to the chest of drawers, and open the little drawers quickly one after another, and not seeing anything that would do, she quickly took her own shawl off and wound it round the skull, round and round and round, and then she came back to Cam and laid her head almost flat on the pillow beside Cam’s and said how lovely it looked now; how the fairies would love it; it was like a bird’s nest; it was like a beautiful mountain such as she had seen abroad, with valleys and flowers and bells ringing and birds singing and little goats and antelopes and... She could see the words echoing as she spoke them rhythmically in Cam’s mind, and Cam was repeating after her how it was like a mountain, a bird’s nest, a garden, and there were little antelopes, and her eyes were opening and shutting, and Mrs Ramsay went on speaking still more monotonously, and more rhythmically and more nonsensically, how she must shut her eyes and go to sleep and dream of mountains and valleys and stars falling and parrots and antelopes and gardens, and everything lovely, she said, raising her head very slowly and speaking more and more mechanically, until she sat upright and saw that Cam was asleep.

Now, she whispered, crossing over to his bed, James must go to sleep too, for see, she said, the boar’s skull was still there; they had not touched it; quite unhurt. He made sure that the skull was still there under the shawl. But he wanted to ask her something more. Would they go to the Lighthouse tomorrow?

Cam is afraid of the skull and James wants the skull on the wall. Here Mrs. Ramsey in a work of magic is able to square the circle, satisfy two seemingly incompatible desires. She does is with a moment of creative magic, a moment of artistry. And Woolf is fabulous with her own writing, the shawl and skull, both symbols of death, foreshadowing Mrs. Ramsey's passing.

[Quark]

But first I want to point out two more things about Mrs. Ramsey and why I believe she is the center of the novel. After the dinner scene, Woolf emphasizes the power that Mrs. Ramsey posesses. Here Mrs. Ramsey is thinking as she goes upstairs:

It was "accomplished" echoeing what Lily says when she finishes her painting. Actually the word "accomplish" runs through the novel in several instances. For any college students out there reading this, the significance of that word in this novel would make a great term paper. Look at these lines:
And then these:

"Wound in their hearts" and "that community of feeling," is what Mrs. Ramsey brings to people. She connects people to community, which is something Lily cannot do.

Now look at this fabulous scene where she puts James and Cam to bed and where that skull is nailed to the wall:

Cam is afraid of the skull and James wants the skull on the wall. Here Mrs. Ramsey in a work of magic is able to square the circle, satisfy two seemingly incompatible desires. She does is with a moment of creative magic, a moment of artistry. And Woolf is fabulous with her own writing, the shawl and skull, both symbols of death, foreshadowing Mrs. Ramsey's passing.

I quoted this section earlier in the discussion, but I don't think it shows Mrs. Ramsay as the important figure in the novel. In fact, once you read to the end, this section proves how ineffectual Mrs. Ramsay's accomplishments are. At this part of the story, Mrs. Ramsay believes that she can overcome deleterious nature by joining people together. Her most successful union of people is between her daughter and Paul Rayley. This is what she accomplishes. But, we know that later on this marriage will dissolve and leave both husband and wife unhappy. I don't think we can say that Mrs. Ramsay really achieved much by encouraging togetherness. We know that Mrs. Ramsay sincerely hopes that her charity and social skills will overcome mortality and change, but we also know that this isn't true. The Ramsay's end in loneliness and tragedy. We sympathize and feel compassion for the Ramsays, but I don't believe they're the most successful people in this story. Their ideas represent the exhausted Victorian age which was yielding to Modernism at the time. It's hard to believe that Mrs. Ramsay would achieve the most in this story.

[plainjane]

I quoted this section earlier in the discussion, but I don't think it shows Mrs. Ramsay as the important figure in the novel. In fact, once you read to the end, this section proves how ineffectual Mrs. Ramsay's accomplishments are. At this part of the story, Mrs. Ramsay believes that she can overcome deleterious nature by joining people together. Her most successful union of people is between her daughter and Paul Rayley. This is what she accomplishes. But, we know that later on this marriage will dissolve and leave both husband and wife unhappy. I don't think we can say that Mrs. Ramsay really achieved much by encouraging togetherness. We know that Mrs. Ramsay sincerely hopes that her charity and social skills will overcome mortality and change, but we also know that this isn't true. The Ramsay's end in loneliness and tragedy. We sympathize and feel compassion for the Ramsays, but I don't believe they're the most successful people in this story. Their ideas represent the exhausted Victorian age which was yielding to Modernism at the time. It's hard to believe that Mrs. Ramsay would achieve the most in this story.

That is mainly why I thought that while isolation is certainly a theme of the book, so is helplessness and hopelessness against what Woolf sees as Fate. People are going to live their lives as they will no matter how much interference by Mrs. Ramsay.

Really isn't Lily the "most successful"? After all she completes her goal.

[Virgil]

I quoted this section earlier in the discussion, but I don't think it shows Mrs. Ramsay as the important figure in the novel. In fact, once you read to the end, this section proves how ineffectual Mrs. Ramsay's accomplishments are. At this part of the story, Mrs. Ramsay believes that she can overcome deleterious nature by joining people together. Her most successful union of people is between her daughter and Paul Rayley. This is what she accomplishes. But, we know that later on this marriage will dissolve and leave both husband and wife unhappy. I don't think we can say that Mrs. Ramsay really achieved much by encouraging togetherness. We know that Mrs. Ramsay sincerely hopes that her charity and social skills will overcome mortality and change, but we also know that this isn't true. The Ramsay's end in loneliness and tragedy. We sympathize and feel compassion for the Ramsays, but I don't believe they're the most successful people in this story. Their ideas represent the exhausted Victorian age which was yielding to Modernism at the time. It's hard to believe that Mrs. Ramsay would achieve the most in this story.

But Quark, under this reading the first two thirds of the novel becomes a waste of time. You can't have a central character who is the pillar of the novel, where everything centers around her, where her consciousness is completely represented, and then let it all be a deemed as useless. Under that reading the structure of the novel would then be flawed. In the end, the character of Mrs Ramsey has to have significance or or it's no different than a surprise ending, where the author is essentially saying, "never mind."

[Quark]

But Quark, under this reading the first two thirds of the novel becomes a waste of time. You can't have a central character who is the pillar of the novel, where everything centers around her, where her consciousness is completely represented, and then let it all be a deemed as useless. Under that reading the structure of the novel would then be flawed. In the end, the character of Mrs Ramsey has to have significance or or it's no different than a surprise ending, where the author is essentially saying, "never mind."

Oh, I'm not saying that she isn't important, or that she isn't central. I'm just trying to show why she's important. People have argued that Mrs. Ramsay is important because she brings people together and connects with the deeper thoughts in the other characters. If this were true, that would be quite an accomplishment, and Mrs. Ramsay would be a heroic figure. I don't think this is true, though. Her efforts actually appear to be quite futile. Really, Mrs. Ramsay is important because she doesn't succeed. Much of this story is tragic, and Mrs. Ramsay's ineffectualness is extremely important in that tragedy. The Ramsay's are important to us because we can see ourselves in them. Hasn't everyone had some exposure to things like Mrs. Ramsay's altruism or Mr. Ramsay's intellectualism? I think the point of the tragedy is that these things aren't enough to overcome mortality and change. Ultimately, those who put their faith in these ideas will end up isolated.

Mrs. Ramsay is important to Lily because of artistic and social reasons. Lily desires the position Mrs. Ramsay has in many ways. Lily's life is somewhat drab; taking care of an ailing family member seems to be all the life she has outside of the Ramsays. For Lily, Mrs. Ramsay represents the busy social atmosphere and wealth that she has never had. Lily also wants the ease of expression that Mrs. Ramsay has. The Ramsays represent the kind of success Lily wishes she could achieve, but that isn't to say that Lily wants to live like the Ramsays--she just wants their level of social success. I've gone over why she's important to Mr. Ramsay before, but I can do so again. Mrs. Ramsay is important in other ways to people like Tansley or the children; but, in none of these perspectives on Mrs. Ramsay, is she successful at overcoming the main tragedy of this story.