Actually I was thinking of the person who is abused and still loves and stays. Look, I'm not saying this type of relationship is not dysfunctional. Of course it is and of course I don't condone it. But why is it inconceivable that a person still feels love. How can I project into someone else's heart and say I know what they feel?Originally Posted by plainjane
Well, then you agree with me. All the relationships I have mentioned "love...in a way."
Last edited by Virgil; 07-17-2007 at 07:11 AM.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
In the broadest of senses only, a true love between a husband and wife and all it entails would not act in such a fashion. A marriage is a partnership, a pulling together. Of course there are squabbles, but in the important things they do not deprive each other.
Regarding what you say about the abused one still loving, I have to say that is not love any more than the other side of the coin. A dependence....yes, some sort of compulsion, maybe, love? No.
I hate to belabor this, but "true love?" Your definition of true love seems like it would exclude 99% of the marriages in the world. It sounds idealized, even romanticized. I'm talking reality (and I think so is Woolf), not a one out of a hundred anomaly.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
And yet.....
I reiterate.
You say that is a "romanticized" or "idealized" version of marriage, I disagree.in the important things they do not deprive each other.
Strongly.
Well perhaps we disagree.
Let me say, that was fun.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Well perhaps we disagree.
Let me say, that was fun.
Ya think we disagree?
Seriously, friendly disagreement is the meat of book discussions IMO.
I was wondering what people thought about the relationship between the Ramsay's and their children. What importance do you think Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay place on their children? And, what do the children think of their parents?
"Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
[...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
[...] O mais! par instants"
--"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost
Thank God - another topic of discussion. I was about to say, 'will we be stuck on the question of whether Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey truly love each other forever?' Is it that important at this point in our reading? I think we should read the entire book; then form an opinion (and it will end up being just that, an opinion) on whether it was true love or not. I think it is important to look at other aspects of the story, so thank you, Quark, for turning the discussion to the relationship of the children towards the parents. I for one think it is quite a complicated/complex question and should make for some very good discussion. The family seems to be the prominent aspect to this story. They make up a world of their very own and so each unit contributes something in the whole structure of the book.
Unfortunately, I cannot expound on my own ideas presently, since real life calls me out to do errands again. Maybe later tonight. I am over half way through reading the novel.
"It's so mysterious, the land of tears."
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I have to refresh my memory on the children, but I do remember how passionately James seemed to hate his father in the beginning, in fact quite early on when the father mentioned that it would not be fine James....
As Woolf mentions, extreme!Had there been an axe handy, or a poker, any weapon that would have gashed a hole in his father's breast and killed him, there and then, James would have seized it. Such were the extremes of emotion that Mr. Ramsay excited in his children's breasts by his mere presence; standing, as now, lean as a knife.....grinning sarcastically, not only with the pleasure of disillusioning his son and casting ridicule upon his wife, who was ten thousand times better in every way than he was [James thought], but also with some secret conceit at his own accuracy of judgement.
I really thought James was a bit of a spoiled brat. But there were some saving times at the end, which I won't go into now, as Janine isn't finished yet.
Hi Plainjane, you can go into those details on James. You won't spoil it for me since I read the book before a few years back. Also I have seen the BBC film countless times. Always trying to figure it all out. I got the impression he was spoiled too, being the youngest. He was younger than Cam, wasn't he? or at least the youngest boy. Yes, James did seem to hate the father and favor the mother. He seemed rather clingy with the mother, I thought, like he was 'tied to her apron strings', so to speak. In this way, it reminded me a little of D.H.Lawrence's autobiographical novel "Sons and Lovers"; how Paul hated his father and favored his mother giving her almost abnornal love and in that case also, Paul was a highly sensitive child and creative. He too, was the youngest boy and sheltered and spoiled by the mother. The mother and father constantly bickered and were total opposites, as well. On first reading TTLH, I had not thought of these similarities in the two families and the two novels....interesting.
Last edited by Janine; 07-18-2007 at 12:19 AM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
The only thing I was really thinking of was that Mr. Ramsay's sour personality really colored the entire family. Mrs. Ramsay was always a bit on edge, the children hardly knew how to take him sometimes. I suppose his gruffness came from many things, he was not as successful as he would have wished, he was unsettled in his married life to some extent, he seemed not to know how to give praise, and that seems to be the factor with James at least. He hardly ever heard a word of praise from his father. Children thrive on praise, although it can be carried too far I think, but some is essential to their growth. Just the simple "Well done!" that is given him by his father during the eventual trip to the Lighthouse was enough to swell him with pride. I thought it interesting he would not even look at anyone, and Cam thought that was fine, as James did not wish to share in his pleasure.
Interesting and very sad actually.
Yes, Mr. Ramsey's insecurity poisons many of his relationships. He becomes irritable at dinner because people are too frivolous and don't value his work enough. His lack of empathy comes out in the first scene with Mrs. Ramsay and James. He also places a large burden on his children to continue his work--particularly Andrew. During the last part of The Window Mr Ramsay thinks to himself, "It didn't matter who reached Z (if thought ran like an alphabet from A to Z). Somebody would reach it--if not he, then another" (122). It seems like Mr. Ramsay is counting on the next generation to finish his work--at least that thought gives him some consolation. This strong desire--and his deep insecurity--I think made his relationship what it was with his children.
I wonder, though, are there not also--at the beginning of the story--unsatisfied desires and goals that the mother is trying to live out through the kids? Look at her need to pair everyone up. I think we best see into this part of Mrs. Ramsay when she is thinking about Prue's marriage. She says, "Is it good, is it bad, is it right or wrong? Where are we all going to? and so on. So she righted herself after the shock of the event, and quite unconsciously and incongruously, used the branches of the elm trees outside to help her to stabilise her position. Her world was changing: they were still. The event had given her a sense of movement. All must be in order... It flattered her, where she was most susceptible of flattery, to think how, wound about in their hearts, however long they lived she would be woven; and this, and this, and this, she thought, going upstairs, laughing, but affectionately, at the sofa on the landing (her mother's); at the rocking-chair (her father's); at the map of the Hebrides. All that would be revived again in the lives of Paul and Minta. . . . It was all one stream, and chairs, tables, maps, were hers, were theirs . . . and Paul and Minta would carry it on when she was dead" (115). Now I ruthlessly butchered that quote to make it succinct, but I do think it shows the different importance Mrs. Ramsay is placing on her children--what she hopes they will carry on.
Obviously, if you've read to the end of the novel, you know what happens to these two plans that Mrs. and Mr. Ramsey make for their children. We know that the Ramsay's are doomed, and the Lily Briscoes and William Bankes will inherit the earth. But, I think it's important to realize what Ramsays believe in so we can see the change that occurs in the story.
"Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
[...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
[...] O mais! par instants"
--"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost
I can't help but wonder if Mr. Ramsay's dissatisfaction in life had some basis in his wife's refusal to give in to his wish to be verbally assured of her love. I know, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but wouldn't something like that eat at a man like that? I am not saying that was the end all, be all of his feelings, but would that not have assuaged his feelings of inadequacy somewhat?
I wonder too if his sarcasm and [seemed to me] hostility towards James was actually directed at Mrs. Ramsay...sort of a misdirected anger? Possibly his refusal to even consider the trip to the lighthouse in the beginning was simply out of pique?
Another thing I wonder about...is it only me, or does anyone else feel that Lily is attracted to Mr. Ramsay? She certainly seems to obsess on him during his eventual trip to the lighthouse.
I couldn't help but think during my initial reading that all her matchmaking was somewhat in the vein of "misery loves company".
I think he's just a limited human being. Although he may be a good philosopher, he's not a great philosopher. Quark points out that A to Z metaphor that's in the novel, and Mr. Ramsey realizes he can only reach I forget which letter, "T" is it? I think he would have been more consoled if Mrs. Ramsey had been more assuring, but at his age assurance only goes so far.
Well wouldn't that make her pretty malicious? I believe she believes that marriage and family, with all its issues, is a good and beneficial thing. I think that is supported by the feelings of loneliness that certain characters have, and that marriage and family are a means to minimze that loneliness. Now this stands in stark contrast to what Lilly believes, and perhaps it's up to us to assess what Woolf thinks herself, since she gives us two leading characters with opposing views.I couldn't help but think during my initial reading that all her matchmaking was somewhat in the vein of "misery loves company".
Oh i can't wait to start reading.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
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