Independence Day Reading: One Flew Over Cuckoo's Nest

[genoveva]

What I'm curious about is...do you think Kesey is being racist and misogynist in this novel, and why? For all I love Ken Kesey, these two elements in this novel trouble me the most.

[bouquin]

I just finished the book. I’m not adding it to the read again list, but I thought it was ok. At the end it occurred to me that during both the movie and the play I left during the EST. I’m such a baby.

possible spoiler

As for the hero status of McMurphy, I’m still kind of wishy-washy. There were certainly several Biblical references, 12 followers - bed shaped like a cross…But I don’t know. I’m glad he won, I’m glad the men found their courage.
At the end Nurse Ratched reminded me of a mother with Munchausen by Proxy. They are all better, so much better and she has to take them down a notch. She needs them to be sick.

My take on Nurse Ratched is that she equates her job to being able to wield power over her patients (and even over her colleagues). Her aim in executing her duties is to establish order, conformity, discipline, control. There is no humane side to her being a nurse.

[motherhubbard]

What I'm curious about is...do you think Kesey is being racist and misogynist in this novel, and why? For all I love Ken Kesey, these two elements in this novel trouble me the most.

I don’t think that Kesey was being raciest or misogynic at all. I think that the story was set in a time when that was the way things were. I don’t think white people thought twice about calling black people darkie or Sam. Women, especially women with authority were b*****s and should go home to their true calling and purpose in life and stop trying to wear the pants. McMurphy was a poorly educated, crude, base, alpha male of that time. Additionally, I think that at the time the Irish still harbored a greater prejudice against blacks left over from the days that black slaves were held at a higher value than migrant Irish workers. Had McMurphy been a gentlemen the story wouldn’t have been the same.

[genoveva]

I think that at the time the Irish still harbored a greater prejudice against blacks left over from the days that black slaves were held at a higher value than migrant Irish workers.

But, not only does McMurphy utter racist and misogynist remarks, but the author describes the "black boys" in a manner that seem racist. It is interesting that Kesey uses a Native American as the narrator and integrates racial overtones (regarding Blacks). It is simply excusable to say that it is a sign of the times that the "black boys" are described in the way that they are? And too, is it just a sign of the times that the women portrayed in Cuckoo's Nest are either "ball-breaking" women or prostitutes? Or, do these sentiments echo the author's beliefs?

[bouquin]

No, I dont see that as redeemable. To me its still self-centred, and I had a real hard time liking him. (I dont actually expect many to agree with me about this, my high school teacher refused to mark the essay 'cos she said my premise was innacurrate).

I will address things more fully once people have finished reading.

In Part 3, Chief Bromden describes McMurphy as follows:

He'd shown us what a little bravado and courage could accomplish, and we thought he'd taught us how to use it. All the way to the coast we had fun pretending to be brave. When people at a stop light would stare at us and our green uniforms we'd do just like he did, sit up straight and strong and tough-looking and put a big grin on our face and stare straight back at them...

McMurphy may not be considered a hero by people like Nurse Ratched but he definitely sways a positive and extraordinary influence on Chief Bromden and the other patients. One commendable trait that struck me right away with regards McMurphy is his ability to laugh; and he is quite concerned that his mates do not have - or have lost - this gift, he tries to resurrect this valuable faculty that has been extinguished in them.

[genoveva]

One commendable trait that struck me right away with regards McMurphy is his ability to laugh; and he is quite concerned that his mates do not have - or have lost - this gift, he tries to resurrect this valuable faculty that has been extinguished in them.

Good point! Observing who laughs, and how definitely has some symbolism. McMurphy is not one who allows himself to suppress emotions.

[motherhubbard]

But, not only does McMurphy utter racist and misogynist remarks, but the author describes the "black boys" in a manner that seem racist. It is interesting that Kesey uses a Native American as the narrator and integrates racial overtones (regarding Blacks). It is simply excusable to say that it is a sign of the times that the "black boys" are described in the way that they are? And too, is it just a sign of the times that the women portrayed in Cuckoo's Nest are either "ball-breaking" women or prostitutes? Or, do these sentiments echo the author's beliefs?

Bromden describes the boys with racist terms, and the women as ball-breakers. I think that it was typical to talk that way at the time. I know people who still watch Archie Bunker or that still use terms like ‘little colored boy’ thinking it is polite. It’s easy to think that white people are prejudice against Natives, or blacks or anyone who is not white, but there was also racial tension between Irish and blacks and Natives and blacks, and Natives and Irish, and Hispanics and everyone, too. I hate to say that it was the author’s beliefs although it could have been. Most people of that generation still harbor some kind of idea that white people are somehow genetically superior in someway.

Also, not every woman was portrayed so negatively. The nurse in disturbed was very nice, the nurse with the birthmark was troubled, but not a ball-buster. And remember that the black boys that made the cut and met the nurses standards were much worse that the others.

[kilted exile]

WARNING: SPOILERS

Ok, finally got some time to address these points correctly & have pulled my copy out of the box it has been in for the last 8yrs.

I don't think Kesey trivializes the problems faced by the acutes, (nor are better than "normal" people) instead, I think he alludes to the fact that the acutes have problems that are not uncommon in people who are not in a mental institition. It is a good study to consider each character and why they are actually in the institution. They are all voluntary except for McMurphy. This is an important fact.

An example of what I am referring to about the patients being better than people on the outside can be seen near the beginning of the book when Chief is talking about Ruckly. The Hospital considers him to be a failure because instead of fixing him has instead been turned into a chronic due to mistakes in treatment. Kesey (through the chief) suggests that he is better in his altered state than if the treatment had worked and turned him into "the sweetest, nicest, best-behaved thing you ever saw.... a hat pulled low over the face of a sleep-walker wandering around in a happy dream." Instead of how he is currently "sitting there fumbling and drooling over his picture"

McMurphy does point out "faults" in the patients, and tries to encourage them to overcome them. One is that most patients have a loss of assertiveness when it comes to expressing their opinion. McMurphy tries to encourage the patients to speak their truth which is obviously a very hard thing to do in front of the nurse since she overpowers them with her authority to the point of mindless conformity. The patients are reduced to sheep, following the herd rather than expressing their individuality.

Yes the patients have an issue with assertiveness, but this is not the only issue they have and they were not made like that by the nurse. They had been like that previously on the outside as well. McMurphy believes what would really help them would (to put not too fine a point on it) be a good kick up the backside. He doesnt recognise the underlying issues however and this is partly to blame also for Bibbits commiting suicide. McMurphy doesnt realise Bibbit's issues with emotional attachment (eg his claims of love for the hooker who is sleeping with him because McMurphy pays him to) and Bibbit is not capable of dealing with the thoughts and emotions rationally, it is all a case of too much too soon

.....just standing up to authority doesn't automatically make one a hero, but standing up to authority in the context where you find that authority is repressing others' rights and committing acts of abuse and violence and injustice, then yes, that would make one a hero. This is exactly what McMurphy does.

Kesey throughout the novel alludes to the fact that you should stand up to authority at all times however, context is really unimportant to a lot of the happenings. At what point does McMurphy become a hero? Is he always one, midway through or only at the end when he attacks the nurse after Billy commits suicide (something he must also accept some responsibility for.

In Part 3, Chief Bromden describes McMurphy as follows:

He'd shown us what a little bravado and courage could accomplish, and we thought he'd taught us how to use it. All the way to the coast we had fun pretending to be brave. When people at a stop light would stare at us and our green uniforms we'd do just like he did, sit up straight and strong and tough-looking and put a big grin on our face and stare straight back at them...

McMurphy may not be considered a hero by people like Nurse Ratched but he definitely sways a positive and extraordinary influence on Chief Bromden and the other patients. One commendable trait that struck me right away with regards McMurphy is his ability to laugh; and he is quite concerned that his mates do not have - or have lost - this gift, he tries to resurrect this valuable faculty that has been extinguished in them.

I have addresssed some of this in an earlier part of the post, but another thought I have is how concerned is he really about the others? Does he do anything for the patients that he does not gain from in some way with respect to making them laugh? If he was more benevolent I would not have an issue but everything is for his gain

Good point! Observing who laughs, and how definitely has some symbolism. McMurphy is not one who allows himself to suppress emotions.

Surely there are times tho' when we should suppress our emotions?

[genoveva]

[B][U][SIZE="4"]
Yes the patients have an issue with assertiveness, but this is not the only issue they have and they were not made like that by the nurse. They had been like that previously on the outside as well. McMurphy believes what would really help them would (to put not too fine a point on it) be a good kick up the backside. He doesnt recognise the underlying issues however and this is partly to blame also for Bibbits commiting suicide. McMurphy doesnt realise Bibbit's issues with emotional attachment (eg his claims of love for the hooker who is sleeping with him because McMurphy pays him to) and Bibbit is not capable of dealing with the thoughts and emotions rationally, it is all a case of too much too soon.

All of this may be true, however, one cannot discuss this episode without emphasizing that the nurse is ultimately the reason why Bibbit commits suicide. It is the nurse who makes Bibbit ashamed of himself and she threatens to tell his mother about him sleeping with the hooker. The nurse and Bibbit's mother both symbolize controlling, threatening, fear invoking women. Who is to say that Bibbit didn't have a genuine good time with the hooker? Perhaps it was the only real enjoyable experiences he ever had with a woman. Nurse Ratched was there to spoil it. And, she used something pleasurable to him against him. She made him commit suicide out of fear for facing his mother about his sexual experience.

[B][U][SIZE="4"]
An example of what I am referring to about the patients being better than people on the outside can be seen near the beginning of the book when Chief is talking about Ruckly. The Hospital considers him to be a failure because instead of fixing him has instead been turned into a chronic due to mistakes in treatment. Kesey (through the chief) suggests that he is better in his altered state than if the treatment had worked and turned him into "the sweetest, nicest, best-behaved thing you ever saw.... a hat pulled low over the face of a sleep-walker wandering around in a happy dream." Instead of how he is currently "sitting there fumbling and drooling over his picture"

I think Kesey's main statement is that mental patients are perhaps better off without any treatment at all, or that these particular patients are worse off after being treated by the institution. For example, is McMurphy better off or worse off after his lobotomy?

[bouquin]

I think Kesey's main statement is that mental patients are perhaps better off without any treatment at all, or that these particular patients are worse off after being treated by the institution. For example, is McMurphy better off or worse off after his lobotomy?

My question is did McMurphy's behavior warrant such drastic intervention. After he attacks an aide, they give him shock therapy three times in the span of one week. He assaults Big Nurse, they remove the frontal lobe of his brain! I wonder if instances like these used to really happen in actual mental institutions.

[kilted exile]

All of this may be true, however, one cannot discuss this episode without emphasizing that the nurse is ultimately the reason why Bibbit commits suicide. It is the nurse who makes Bibbit ashamed of himself and she threatens to tell his mother about him sleeping with the hooker. The nurse and Bibbit's mother both symbolize controlling, threatening, fear invoking women. Who is to say that Bibbit didn't have a genuine good time with the hooker? Perhaps it was the only real enjoyable experiences he ever had with a woman. Nurse Ratched was there to spoil it. And, she used something pleasurable to him against him. She made him commit suicide out of fear for facing his mother about his sexual experience.

Whilst it is true that the Nurse acts terribly, I do not feel this excuses McMurphy actions or that we should forget about them and focus solely on the Nurse. McMUrphy must take his share of the blame as well.

I think Kesey's main statement is that mental patients are perhaps better off without any treatment at all, or that these particular patients are worse off after being treated by the institution. For example, is McMurphy better off or worse off after his lobotomy?

In the example I pointed out however, it is fairly explicit that Ruckly is far better of as a result of the treatment failing and turning him into a fumbling, dribbling wreck who will be confined to the institution for the rest of his life, than if it had succeeded and he had been released to get on with the rest of his life

My question is did McMurphy's behavior warrant such drastic intervention. After he attacks an aide, they give him shock therapy three times in the span of one week. He assaults Big Nurse, they remove the frontal lobe of his brain! I wonder if instances like these used to really happen in actual mental institutions.

I think that similar treatments (though exaggerated by Kesey) did used to happen in facilities like the one in the story.

Regarding whether McMurphy warranted such intervention. No, he didnt. However it should be remembered that he recieved it for a lot more than just the attack on the aids & Nurse. He had tricked the institution into believing he was a violent sociopath in order to get out of having to be on the work farm because he wanted an easy life, and after arriving at the hospital did everything he could to make himself a pain in the neck of the staff. Because of his history of violence/troublemaking he was always going to be on a shorter leash than other inmates

[bouquin]

WARNING: SPOILERS

Ok, finally got some time to address these points correctly & have pulled my copy out of the box it has been in for the last 8yrs.








I have addresssed some of this in an earlier part of the post, but another thought I have is how concerned is he really about the others? Does he do anything for the patients that he does not gain from in some way with respect to making them laugh? If he was more benevolent I would not have an issue but everything is for his gain

What did McMurphy gain after he attacked Washington the aide (in trying to shield George from the "cautionary cleansing")?

What did McMurphy gain when he attacked Big Nurse in outrage for Bibbit's death?

[bouquin]

WARNING: SPOILERS



Yes the patients have an issue with assertiveness, but this is not the only issue they have and they were not made like that by the nurse. They had been like that previously on the outside as well. McMurphy believes what would really help them would (to put not too fine a point on it) be a good kick up the backside. He doesnt recognise the underlying issues however and this is partly to blame also for Bibbits commiting suicide. McMurphy doesnt realise Bibbit's issues with emotional attachment (eg his claims of love for the hooker who is sleeping with him because McMurphy pays him to) and Bibbit is not capable of dealing with the thoughts and emotions rationally, it is all a case of too much too soon

Firstly, I don't remember reading about McMurphy paying Bibbit to sleep with Candy the hooker.

Secondly, Bibbit did not commit suicide as a consequence of any emotional attachment he may have started to nurture towards Candy. The poor fellow committed suicide because he had an abnormal emotional rapport with his mother and he could not face up to the consequence of that. I believe that if Big Nurse had not said that she would tell Bibbit's mom - any other punishment but that - he would not have killed himself.

Thirdly, I would not consider Bibbit's losing his virginity at age 31 as a "case of too much too soon."

[genoveva]

Firstly, I don't remember reading about McMurphy paying Bibbit to sleep with Candy the hooker.

Secondly, Bibbit did not commit suicide as a consequence of any emotional attachment he may have started to nurture towards Candy. The poor fellow committed suicide because he had an abnormal emotional rapport with his mother and he could not face up to the consequence of that. I believe that if Big Nurse had not said that she would tell Bibbit's mom - any other punishment but that - he would not have killed himself.

Thirdly, I would not consider Bibbit's losing his virginity at age 31 as a "case of too much too soon."

I completely agree with you. I think your first point may have been a typo on the original poster's end. Further, the diagnosis of Bibbit having an "emotional attachment" issue is not discussed within the book. This is purely the original poster's diagnosis; one that I disagree with.

[_Shannon_]

No, I dont see that as redeemable. To me its still self-centred, and I had a real hard time liking him. (I dont actually expect many to agree with me about this, my high school teacher refused to mark the essay 'cos she said my premise was innacurrate).

I will address things more fully once people have finished reading.

I think that can lead to an interesting discussion of the anti-hero...