Zen

[NikolaiI]

Ha, okay then, I have a question. The zen koan - something deep, or something silly?

[Dark Star]

Perhaps if you could give us a bit of detail about the Zen Koan, that would be helpful....

[NikolaiI]

Well I had to look it up but I guess koans are parables. They're given as a test to a student and the master judges them to see how far the student has progressed. There are anecdotes about students spending years in meditation, coming to the master each year with an answer for the koan, and it taking many years before they figure it out. I don't think they are supposed to be right-answer test questions, though. They're usually some kind of problem, that doesn't seem to have an answer, such as 'what is the sound of one hand clapping?' I think I read that they're tests put to students, and when they overcome a koan, they have attained a particular wisdom.

[Taliesin]

Oh, we quite like zen koans, although we are not a Buddhist. (the religion has considerable appeal to us, though) They do seem to have something in them.


Some koans for example:

Joshu asked a monk who appeared for the first time in the hall,
"Have I ever seen you here before?" The monk answered, "No sir,
you have not."

"Then have a cup of tea," said Joshu.

He turned to another monk. "Have I ever seen you here before?" he
said. "Yes sir, of course you have," said the second monk.

"Then have a cup of tea," said Joshu.

Later, the managing monk of the monastery asked Joshu, "How is it
that you make the same offer of tea whatever the reply to your
question?"

At this Joshu shouted, "Manager, are you still here?"

"Of course, master!" the manager answered.
"Then have a cup of tea," said Joshu.

One day Chuang-tzu and a friend were walking along a riverbank. "How delightfully the fishes are enjoying themselves in the water!" Chuang-tzu exclaimed.
"You are not a fish," his friend said. "How do you know whether or not the fishes are enjoying themselves?"
"You are not me," Chuang-tzu said. "How do you know that I do not know that the fishes are enjoying themselves?"

Huineng once overheard two monks who were observing a flag flapping in wind
"The flag moves," one said
"The wind moves," the other said
"Neither the wind nor the flag move, the mind moves" said Huineng

Once a there was a farmer. His only horse ran away.
"What bad luck" said the neighbours.
"Is this bad luck?" asked the farmer
The next day the horse returned bringing two other horses with him.
"What good luck"said the neighbours
"Is this good luck?" asked the farmer.
Soon one of the new horses broke the farmers son's arm.
"What bad luck" said the neighbours.
"Is this bad luck?" asked the farmer.
Then there was a war in that kingdom.All young men were mobilized except the farmers son because of his broken arm.
"What good luck" said the neighbours
"Is this good luck?" asked the farmer
...

[NikolaiI]

Ah, thank you all very much, Taliesin. Do you all know whether what I said was a koan is a koan, the thing about one hand clapping? I recognize the koans you all mentioned, I think, as well as others I've found online, including ones from the only zen book I read, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones...those were all parables, but I do seem to remember it being a test of sorts.

Anyway, thank you all very much, again. Those were very delightful koans!

[Visionary3]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QqVBGv2hpQ4

This is Tell Me I Am You, a poem by Rumi

[Orionsbelt]

Does anybody know if the Koans are an outgrowth from things like the sutras or did they come about some other way?

[blazeofglory]

Zen comes from Sanskrit Gyan, means knowledge. In fact Sanskrit is really a repository of knowledge. Sanskrit is a beautiful language yet our pundits and religious misinterpreters have wrongly defined and popularized it.

[Hypercrit Htd]

Koans a philosophical test to query whether student progess beyond various way of acquiring knowledge. Important because spiritual knowledge go beyond mundane
concensus value systemic belief structural concept informing philosophical academic
protocol politess indemics.