can somebody help me understand this?!

[Dark Star]

Seems to me that it still equates to non-believers going to Hell; if the reason is that God hasn't chosen for them to have faith in Christ or not.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

hey all, the other day i came across this quote by Voltaire:
"If God didn't exist it would be necessary for us to invent Him"

looking at ancient civilizations such as the Greeks and the Romans and even before that , they all didn't have an idea about "God"and so they created their own...
my question is how can someone not believe in anything how can you be an atheist?
i do believe that humans have this urge to believe in something bigger than they are no matter what this thing is....

I have not read all the pages in between this and the first, but I have heard it and spent a lot of time on it.

Yes, I love this quotation. Dostoevsky wrote his "Grand Inquisitor" story with this in mind, it is very good (I won't ruin it). What Dostoevsky says is that humanity is naturally submissive and must appeal to a higher power, and he expresses this through Ivan Karamazov, a cold rationalist from the novel The Brothers Karamazov.

According to Ivan, if God does not exist, then people would have made him up. He thinks this because mammals have submitted to something they admit is greater since the dawn of time. Examples of this are monarchies, military heirarchy, even more developed species of animals are members of packs led by one. Basically, it doesn't matter whether you're a piss ant or an alpha male, life has the natural inclination to be submissive, to some degree.

Furthermore, Ivan appeals to God's apparent lack of compassion and mercy, as evidenced by "Rebellion," a chapter of TBK. During his conversation with Alyosha, his brother, Ivan tells him a story of a boy that was playing with rocks and threw one, which unfortunately lands on a dog's paw. The dog belongs to a ruthless general and he is not pleased; the general orders his men to take the boy (who is now in his mother's arms), rip all his clothes off and force the boy to run. Shortly thereafter, the boy is torn to shreds by the general's hounds while the mother watches. After finishing the story, Ivan tells Alyosha that appealing to a benevolent God is nonsense, and famously states "Everything is Permitted," and that if there happens to be a dual God, and he is somehow allowed to enter heaven, he will decline the invitation on the grounds that he cannot morally accept bliss at the expense of a child's suffering.

What he means by "everything is permitted" is that there is not a God that chooses who is slayed, which person becomes ill, and that there is no necessity for justice. He says that people need to feel as though there is a reason for such atrocities, a reason that appeals to their emotions instead of say physics or philosophy. Without a sense of justice or hope, humanity would not be able to reproduce knowing that their offspring await a lifetime of being owned by physics, chemistry and psychology. Therefore, in order for humanity to exist, they need an omnipresent, benevolent God to submit to, not only to provide a reason why nature seems to not care about human suffering, but also to justify it.

Voltaire is strikingly similar to Dostoevsky in that they are both pessimists and have utterly realized the absurdity of life.

And to answer your other question, I believe this has been said before...atheism doesn't imply a belief in nothing, but moreso a disbelief in a magic God that plans all this nonsense. The difference between a believer and an atheist is hope.

[weepingforloman]

Seems to me that it still equates to non-believers going to Hell; if the reason is that God hasn't chosen for them to have faith in Christ or not.

Yes, non-believers go to Hell, but you miss the general dynamic. It is not that I am better than anyone because I believe, it is that there is only one way to atone for the horror we have become (namely, let Christ atone for you, and then accept His atonement). Additionally, I get the impression that you think of Hell as a forcibly held prison-fortress. I advise you to read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis for a different perspective.

[weepingforloman]

I have not read all the pages in between this and the first, but I have heard it and spent a lot of time on it.

Yes, I love this quotation. Dostoevsky wrote his "Grand Inquisitor" story with this in mind, it is very good (I won't ruin it). What Dostoevsky says is that humanity is naturally submissive and must appeal to a higher power, and he expresses this through Ivan Karamazov, a cold rationalist from the novel The Brothers Karamazov.

According to Ivan, if God does not exist, then people would have made him up. He thinks this because mammals have submitted to something they admit is greater since the dawn of time. Examples of this are monarchies, military heirarchy, even more developed species of animals are members of packs led by one. Basically, it doesn't matter whether you're a piss ant or an alpha male, life has the natural inclination to be submissive, to some degree.

Furthermore, Ivan appeals to God's apparent lack of compassion and mercy, as evidenced by "Rebellion," a chapter of TBK. During his conversation with Alyosha, his brother, Ivan tells him a story of a boy that was playing with rocks and threw one, which unfortunately lands on a dog's paw. The dog belongs to a ruthless general and he is not pleased; the general orders his men to take the boy (who is now in his mother's arms), rip all his clothes off and force the boy to run. Shortly thereafter, the boy is torn to shreds by the general's hounds while the mother watches. After finishing the story, Ivan tells Alyosha that appealing to a benevolent God is nonsense, and famously states "Everything is Permitted," and that if there happens to be a dual God, and he is somehow allowed to enter heaven, he will decline the invitation on the grounds that he cannot morally accept bliss at the expense of a child's suffering.

What he means by "everything is permitted" is that there is not a God that chooses who is slayed, which person becomes ill, and that there is no necessity for justice. He says that people need to feel as though there is a reason for such atrocities, a reason that appeals to their emotions instead of say physics or philosophy. Without a sense of justice or hope, humanity would not be able to reproduce knowing that their offspring await a lifetime of being owned by physics, chemistry and psychology. Therefore, in order for humanity to exist, they need an omnipresent, benevolent God to submit to, not only to provide a reason why nature seems to not care about human suffering, but also to justify it.

Voltaire is strikingly similar to Dostoevsky in that they are both pessimists and have utterly realized the absurdity of life.

And to answer your other question, I believe this has been said before...atheism doesn't imply a belief in nothing, but moreso a disbelief in a magic God that plans all this nonsense. The difference between a believer and an atheist is hope.

No one said God is "magic." Don't invent your own terms, please.
And how could you blame God for the actions of a man like the general? That doesn't make sense. What would the world be like if everything wrong was miraculously stopped from happening by God? We would be living in the most successful autocracy in all of history.

[Unbeliever]

As I said, without Christ all go to Hell. Hence the "I am the Way..." statement. I am Calvinist, and this is how we break down the salvation process: God chooses (elects) those whom He wants to save. God, through a specific outpouring of grace, causes the elect to have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ saves a man. Christ is God, so election is intervention by Christ. Of course, you could use the same term to refer to the Crucifixion.

So, none of us has any choice in the matter of where we spend eternity? We either were or were not chosen by God/Christ to be saved, and that's that? Then why should we spend any time worrying about it? Nothing we can do will cause us to be saved if God hasn't chosen us, and even if we believe and behave as Christians we won't be saved if God hasn't chosen us.

[Dark Star]

Yes, non-believers go to Hell, but you miss the general dynamic. It is not that I am better than anyone because I believe, it is that there is only one way to atone for the horror we have become (namely, let Christ atone for you, and then accept His atonement). Additionally, I get the impression that you think of Hell as a forcibly held prison-fortress. I advise you to read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis for a different perspective.

Thanks for clarifying.

Before I go dragging out a book by him with some hard-earned money, can you give me a bit of a summary?

I can't tell whether you believe that Hell is escapable...or take the kinder view that some Christians take that Hell is simply a separation from God rather than something more like Dante's Inferno.

[weepingforloman]

First of all, separation from God is WORSE than Dante's Inferno. Secondly, I am unsure whether or not, at the creation of the "new heavens and new earth" foretold in Revelations, souls in Hell will be granted redeemed bodies. It's over my head. The summary of The Great Divorce (which is a novel, but theologically rich enough to count as a book of theology): humans are presented with the choice of staying in Heaven after death. However, most have one or more hang-ups they can't overcome, and, since these would not be allowed in Heaven, they choose to remain in Hell, cherishing whatever it is they cannot give up, until even that is a misery to them.

[Dark Star]

Thanks, I'll look into that novel.

And, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. As someone with what could be considered 'a separation from God' I'd prefer that to being tortured for eternity as my choice of hell.

[Unbeliever]

How can anyone be separated from an omnipresent God? Even the Psalmist doesn't think that's possible - even in Hell:


Psalm 139:7-8

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

[weepingforloman]

The NIV translates that passage as "under the earth." It may be that separation from God means being separated from Him in certain modes (He can be more or less present to an individual at any given time) or perhaps even being unmade entirely (though I am skeptical of this).

Thanks, I'll look into that novel.

You might get something out of it, and it's an enjoyable read.

And, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. As someone with what could be considered 'a separation from God' I'd prefer that to being tortured for eternity as my choice of hell.

My point was that the typical picture of physical/pseudo-physical torture does not grasp the pain felt in the absence of God. Imagine all sense of goodness being removed... That is what it would be like, and more besides.

[Dark Star]

The NIV translates that passage as "under the earth." It may be that separation from God means being separated from Him in certain modes (He can be more or less present to an individual at any given time) or perhaps even being unmade entirely (though I am skeptical of this).

Good to see that you use the NIV.

My point was that the typical picture of physical/pseudo-physical torture does not grasp the pain felt in the absence of God. Imagine all sense of goodness being removed... That is what it would be like, and more besides.

D'OH! Of course. I get your point now. I was forgetting to look at that from the perspective of a believer in the Christian God. (Which I am going to define very loosely for the sake of this exercise, as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god.) Yes, that would be worse than the stereotypical image of Hell.

[weepingforloman]

Slipped out of the mindset, eh?

[weepingforloman]

So, none of us has any choice in the matter of where we spend eternity? We either were or were not chosen by God/Christ to be saved, and that's that? Then why should we spend any time worrying about it? Nothing we can do will cause us to be saved if God hasn't chosen us, and even if we believe and behave as Christians we won't be saved if God hasn't chosen us.

You can only believe if God elects you. The criteria for salvation is the same, it's just that the initiative lies with God. His election is reflected in temporal existence.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

No one said God is "magic." Don't invent your own terms, please.
And how could you blame God for the actions of a man like the general? That doesn't make sense. What would the world be like if everything wrong was miraculously stopped from happening by God? We would be living in the most successful autocracy in all of history.

That material is not mine, Dostoevsky wrote the book; its, uh, supposed to be pretty good...

[NikolaiI]

It is pretty good, and Ivan's argument in "The Grand Inquisitor" is pretty deep. It includes a good explanation of Christianity, one I hadn't heard before, and one I could actually accept. Christ died on the Cross for our sins, etc., instead of calling down an angelic host to save himself. Had he, then all the people watching would have bowed before him, but they would have been slaves. Etc., etc., I think he also talks about saints denying themselves earthly bread so they could enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I can't remember it well right now, but I liked that part too.

No one said God is "magic."

Are you sure? Hehe.