Sons and Lovers

[Pensive]

Hi Pensive, just to let you know I read your post and found it very interesting. So you finished all now - Sons and Lovers parts. Glad you did like the book. I will answer your well expressed post with some comments soon and to the best of my abilitly. The novel, along with all of Lawrence's novels and stories presents very complex characters (we were just today discussing this fact on the other thread - "Women in Love".) and it is not always easy or possible to figure these characters out according to their motives or actions in life. In a way this is realistic, in that often the people we know and love, do not always act in ways we feel appropriate or expected. I do agree with you that the book can be very confusing in places and is very thought provoking long after you shut the pages of the novel. It is a shame we are not having a big discussion on this book, but eventually it might get choosen as a book of the month read.
It is a fascinating book and there is much to what you have said about it. I will get back to you very soon and write more comments to your great post. I hope Virgil stops in, too. Janine

I strongly agree with you that the characters were real. They were not put as entirely 'good' or 'bad' which is the case in many novels. Instead, they were shown with their weaker sides as well. Their battling selves as well. This is what made the book seem very real. I think I have mentioned it already before, but if I have not, I would do that again: I loved Lawrence's writing style. The way he showed the emotions of Paul was extremely fascinating. There is this passage which I liked a lot, and I think it reveals quite a lot about what picture Paul had in his mind of Clara. He had an idea they might not be able to stay together for long just like he had when he was with Miriam.

What is she, after all?" he said to himself. "Here is the sea-coast morning, big and permanent and beautiful; there is she fretting, always unsatisfied, and temporary as a bubble of foam. What does she mean to me, after all? She represents something, like a bubble of foam represents the sea. But what is she? It's not her I care for.

Oh, and take as much time as you want. Whenever you are free, you should give your thoughts! I am looking forward to that.

I may participate in the discussion of Women in Love in a few days as well, depends on whether I get to find the copy...

[Janine]

I strongly agree with you that the characters were real. They were not put as entirely 'good' or 'bad' which is the case in many novels. Instead, they were shown with their weaker sides as well. Their battling selves as well. This is what made the book seem very real. I think I have mentioned it already before, but if I have not, I would do that again: I loved Lawrence's writing style. The way he showed the emotions of Paul was extremely fascinating. There is this passage which I liked a lot, and I think it reveals quite a lot about what picture Paul had in his mind of Clara. He had an idea they might not be able to stay together for long just like he had when he was with Miriam.



Oh, and take as much time as you want. Whenever you are free, you should give your thoughts! I am looking forward to that.

I may participate in the discussion of Women in Love in a few days as well, depends on whether I get to find the copy...

Pensive, great to see you respond to my post so quickly. Glad we are in agreement on the realism of the characters. Yes, Lawrence explores their weaknesses, as well as their strengths. No character in any Lawrence book is easily figured out and none are 'all bad and all good', just like real people. His characters are all so mulitlayered and this makes them fascinating in my opinion.

I first was attracted to Lawrence's beautiful and fluid style of writing, too. Some passages are so vivid and so brilliant and I always say he describes in color - full technicolor. From one of my biographies I read that after his severe illness, when he was a young man and nearly died, he seemed to come back from a 'near death experience' and he seemed to see colors and things more clearly and more vividly than he had before. He had written it in letters that are well documented and others had observed this new intense insight and 'genius' in him. He wrote "Sons and Lovers" after that illness.

To learn something of his biography and life greatly aids one in understanding his books. "Sons and Lovers" is basically autobiographical; I think I may have told you this before. Paul is Lawrence and he wrote what was in his own head/heart/soul and just exactly how he felt even about the two women - Miriam and Clara. Miriam who was really Jesse Chambers, in real life, is someone I have always felt a tinge of sorrow/pathos for. She was a very good friend with young Lawrence, before they went to the stage of being lovers or attempting to be so. The 'lovers' part of their relationship could never be right for them and I think she endured the pain of this rejection all her life. She wrote a biography of her own, which I have read reviews on and apparently it is not that extensely read or acclaimed, since it can be bought at a reasonable price on Amazon. I would actually now like to read this book and may purchase it sometime in the near future (perhaps out of sheer curiosity). I want to see just what she had to say about young Lawrence (Bert as they called him). Surely she knew him as no one else did, when they were growing up together. I think it is the age-old 'coming of age' story by the second half of this book - you know, the 'Lovers' part, with many struggles that go along with that time in a man's life. At Paul's age, he is just at the experimental period, and trying to figure out what to do with his life and what he wants his life to become. Jesse was his first girlfriend/love and rarely does that love turn out well. Clara, I am sure represents another, second love in his life. Was he engaged to her in the book? I don't recall now without reviewing the text. If so she represents Louie Burrows, who actually was good friends with Jesse, I believe. He was actually engaged to her and broke it off after his illness. I will try to find more about the character, Clara, in my biographies.

Paul (Lawrence's) mother was completely overbearing with her children, but especially with young Paul(Lawrence/Bert) - the youngest of the boys. Yet he loved her almost with an unnatural kind of intense love. Had she still been alive when Lawrence meet Frieda Weekly, she would have no doubt have stopped Lawrence from running away with Frieda and eventually marrying her. His mother had a great hold on his life. This part of S&L is absolutely true. The aided death is still very much a conjecture. No one knows the full truth about whether that actually occurred. She may have just passed away naturally in her sleep. I have read both versions in biographies, so who knows?

The father in the book is somewhat exaggerated and later in life Lawrence admitted to this and felt badly about it. He was not as bad as he is depicted in S&L. Kind of sad for him.

Many people, unfortunately, became victims being depicted in Lawrence's novels. He often used their images and exaggerated them or changed certain things about them. Usually though they could see themselves portrayed in the character. Therefore L lost many a friend this way. He did not mean to offend but the end result often was that the people were greatly offended.

[Pensive]

He wrote "Sons and Lovers" after that illness.

You make me learn something new everyday about Lawrence. Thanks for that. This is interesting. I have usually heard of people losing touch with their writings after illness rather than being good. But this is fascinating to hear.

To learn something of his biography and life greatly aids one in understanding his books. "Sons and Lovers" is basically autobiographical; I think I may have told you this before.

Yes, you did tell me.

Paul is Lawrence and he wrote what was in his own head/heart/soul and just exactly how he felt even about the two women - Miriam and Clara. Miriam who was really Jesse Chambers, in real life, is someone I have always felt a tinge of sorrow/pathos for. She was a very good friend with young Lawrence, before they went to the stage of being lovers or attempting to be so. The 'lovers' part of their relationship could never be right for them and I think she endured the pain of this rejection all her life. She wrote a biography of her own, which I have read reviews on and apparently it is not that extensely read or acclaimed, since it can be bought at a reasonable price on Amazon. I would actually now like to read this book and may purchase it sometime in the near future (perhaps out of sheer curiosity). I want to see just what she had to say about young Lawrence (Bert as they called him).

Miriam's character (and the happenings in the book) made me feel pity towards her too. It's a pity she could not get the man she loved.

Surely she knew him as no one else did, when they were growing up together. I think it is the age-old 'coming of age' story by the second half of this book - you know, the 'Lovers' part, with many struggles that go along with that time in a man's life. At Paul's age, he is just at the experimental period, and trying to figure out what to do with his life and what he wants his life to become. Jesse was his first girlfriend/love and rarely does that love turn out well.

Yes, Miriam knew the inside him. She could understand him. Perhaps this was also another reason Paul broke up with her I think. In the novel it's written, he felt hatred towards her sometimes for knowing so much about him.

Clara, I am sure represents another, second love in his life. Was he engaged to her in the book? I don't recall now without reviewing the text. If so she represents Louie Burrows, who actually was good friends with Jesse, I believe. He was actually engaged to her and broke it off after his illness. I will try to find more about the character, Clara, in my biographies.

No, not engages in the ring sort of manner, but for sometime, it looked as if they would marry. Oh, I would love it if you can share more about Clara with the help of his biography.

Paul (Lawrence's) mother was completely overbearing with her children, but especially with young Paul(Lawrence/Bert) - the youngest of the boys. Yet he loved her almost with an unnatural kind of intense love. Had she still been alive when Lawrence meet Frieda Weekly, she would have no doubt have stopped Lawrence from running away with Frieda and eventually marrying her. His mother had a great hold on his life. This part of S&L is absolutely true. The aided death is still very much a conjecture. No one knows the full truth about whether that actually occurred. She may have just passed away naturally in her sleep. I have read both versions in biographies, so who knows?

Well, the book which I read had confirmed of aided death but the truth might be different. Paul's condition at that time was very interesting yet tear-jerking to me. He wanted the one he loved the most (I get this feeling he loved his mother the most and she had an influence over him more than any body else) to die. The feelings in those pages are described very well.

The father in the book is somewhat exaggerated and later in life Lawrence admitted to this and felt badly about it. He was not as bad as he is depicted in S&L. Kind of sad for him.

I don't know why, but I couldn't dislike Mr. Morel very much. He angered me a lot on beating his wife but then again at those times, this was the attitude of many working-class people in that area. I think social atmosphere is depicted in a very interesting manner as well.

Many people, unfortunately, became victims being depicted in Lawrence's novels. He often used their images and exaggerated them or changed certain things about them. Usually though they could see themselves portrayed in the character. Therefore L lost many a friend this way. He did not mean to offend but the end result often was that the people were greatly offended.

Oh he shouldn't have done that I guess! But the need to write what you imagine can be terrible so I can understand why he couldn't stop himself from writing the exaggerated version of them.

I was thinking about one thing a lot; the attitude of Lawrence towards the behaviour of women. There were these dialogues between Miriam and Paul in the end which I think confirmed this feeling of mine. Or perhaps I didn't get it. Can anyone explain to me what it means?

"Oh, I don't think it won't be a great deal. Only you'll find
earning your own living isn't everything."

"No," she said, swallowing with difficulty; "I don't suppose
it is."

"I suppose work CAN be nearly everything to a man," he said,
"though it isn't to me. But a woman only works with a part of
herself. The real and vital part is covered up."

"But a man can give ALL himself to work?" she asked.

"Yes, practically."

"And a woman only the unimportant part of herself?"

"That's it."

I don't understand if work can be nearly everything to a man, why can't it be for a woman? There were some other little things like this as well but I didn't mark them so I am sorry I can't show them here...

[Janine]

You make me learn something new everyday about Lawrence. Thanks for that. This is interesting. I have usually heard of people losing touch with their writings after illness rather than being good. But this is fascinating to hear.

Hi Pensive, ah thank you for saying that. It really makes me feel satisfaction having helped you better understand Lawrence and the book. Yes, actually Lawrence was weak and ill his entire life after that major illness of pnemonia. He had periods of more vital health, but in several of my biographies it was noted that he seemed to have colds often and always at the Christmas holiday season. English rainy/damp weather was especially hard on his bad chest conditions. So eventually he traveled to more moderate climates to live, such as Italy, New Mexico, Australia, and Mexico. This is what makes Lawrence's life so extraordinary and commendable. How the man could persist against all odds, to produce the high quality and the great body of his writing, is incredible. I have the highest regard and respect for that type of ambition. He once said that if he stopped working - either writing or painting (yes, Lawrence did some painting and drawing, too) he would die. I believe his talent did keep him active and alive. He had a tremendous will to write and to live. He had a wonderful lively way and was loved by many.

Miriam's character (and the happenings in the book) made me feel pity towards her too. It's a pity she could not get the man she loved.

I think you may be looking at his from a youthful and romantic position. Being older now, I feel that first loves usually doesn't take full root to blossom into a full-fledged long term love relationship or marriage. Lawrence seemed to align Miriam(Jesse) with his mother in several texts I have read, in that she could be controlling and overbearing, in Lawrence's eyes. Did Miriam seem subtly controlling in the book? I thought I recalled that she did and I know there remained a sort of friction between them and it seemed they could not come to agreements on their love-life. I do not know how much this was imagined by Lawrence in his actual case, or if it actually happened, but he did the right thing by not taking her as his wife. I am convinced of that. I know that Jessie must have been heartbroken at the time. I don't believe she ever married, but I am not completely sure of it. My son had a first love that reminds me of this relationship. He was in his early 20's and the girl always seemed to want to control him, or manipulate him in subtle ways; he finally rebelled. He is now happily married and so is she - to different people. The point is this - in the book had it felt right for them, I think they would have worked out their struggles and married, but it was not meant to be.
The short story I have posted this month is interesting - I think Lawrence wrote it about himself going back to see the woman he once loved and broke off with. It is a short short story - only a half dozen pages long, I believe. You might find it quite interesting to read and think in relationship to "Sons and Lovers" and to Lawrence's real life. It all seems to tie in to me. The story is called "The Shades of Spring". It is very nostalgic.

Yes, Miriam knew the inside him. She could understand him. Perhaps this was also another reason Paul broke up with her I think. In the novel it's written, he felt hatred towards her sometimes for knowing so much about him.

It is indeed interesting what you say about Paul feeling hatred towards Miriam 'for knowing so much about him'. It is always interesting how in L's keen perception, he could see beyond something and into the very core of thinking/reaction in a person. Because now Paul feels vulnerable and revealed to Miriam, he also feels anger towards her. How often we act in strange ways when feeling exposed. This is very psychological, don't you think?

This I am not so sure of in the real life with Lawrence and Jesse. She knew the youthful Lawrence, but not the deeper parts of him that she could not comprehend. Lawrence changed much after he left Eastwick and developed as a man and a philosopher/idealist. I think that Jessie remained true to the youthful Lawrence, but she would not have been able to exist in the world of the mature Lawrence, nor in reality could he exist in her limited world.

No, not engages in the ring sort of manner, but for sometime, it looked as if they would marry. Oh, I would love it if you can share more about Clara with the help of his biography.

Pensive, in the book, did Paul ask Clara to marry him while they were riding on a train together? I seem to recall that part; if so the character corresponds to Louie Burrows and that was an actual incident. I looked in one of my biographies and it is hard to accertain, but I believe she is one and the same person. If she is I have a wonderful photo of her I will post. She was quite lovely and beautiful.

Well, the book which I read had confirmed of aided death but the truth might be different. Paul's condition at that time was very interesting yet tear-jerking to me. He wanted the one he loved the most (I get this feeling he loved his mother the most and she had an influence over him more than any body else) to die. The feelings in those pages are described very well.

Most of my books did claim it was aided death, but never confirmed or proven. Probably it was, since the mother was very close to the end when she did die, hanging on my a mere thread. It was awful, as you can imagine from the account in the book, to see her wasting away. You put that so nicely in your paragraph and I too thought it so tear-jerking a scene - truly heart-breaking when Paul was torn between letting her go yet loving her so much to help her to die. The feelings were described very well, indeed. It seemed so real to me.

I don't know why, but I couldn't dislike Mr. Morel very much. He angered me a lot on beating his wife but then again at those times, this was the attitude of many working-class people in that area. I think social atmosphere is depicted in a very interesting manner as well.

I did not really dislike him either and I rather feel badly now for Lawrence's real father. Lawrence go something of value from both parents and in the end it helped to balance out his life and his writing. His father was depicted harshly in the novel, but he was sad as well, I thought. In reality I don't believe he ever beat Lawrence's mother or the children. He was just harsh and like you said, he was no different than the typical working-class man trying to make a living in the pits for his family. It was a hard job working in darkness day in and day out, to be so dirty and close to the threat of death always. The man had his good side at times. No one in a Lawrence book is all good or all bad, they are all human-beings with weaknesses and strengths and flaws. This is why the characters present a very realistic picture. They are real people.

"I think social atmosphere is depicted in a very interesting manner as well"

This and the socio-economic issues are another major theme of this book: the encrouchment of industry and modernization on the world. The area depicted in the book is only a microcosom of a much larger situation/problem, facing the earth and the world in the years to come. I often think, if Lawrence were here now and saw how man has abused the earth, he would be appalled. Lawrence was very 'prophetic' in his observations and social commentary.

Oh he shouldn't have done that I guess! But the need to write what you imagine can be terrible so I can understand why he couldn't stop himself from writing the exaggerated version of them.

Like you have said in this paragraph 'the need to write what you imagine can be terrible' and it must have been great in one so brilliant and observant as L. I am sure he was inspired and driven; when he saw someone or something he photographed it in his mind and used what he absorbed; expressing all on paper; I think the words naturaly poured out from him. I don't think it ever was intentional at all or vindicative on his part. Unfortunately, people did not agree and they hated his depictions of them. I suppose they felt exposed. I don't think it could have been helped, nor do I think he should have changed a thing he wrote.

I was thinking about one thing a lot; the attitude of Lawrence towards the behaviour of women. There were these dialogues between Miriam and Paul in the end which I think confirmed this feeling of mine. Or perhaps I didn't get it. Can anyone explain to me what it means?

This part I will have to review and think about. It is late now and I am really tired out and can't think of how to answer this; the answer would be quite complex. I will try to do so tomorrow. I do think L knew woman quite well. This insight into women's behavior is very developed in his books to follow. We are seeing it now in "Women in Love". It is as though he has crawled inside their skins at times and knows precisely how they will react to things and to men. He had many good woman friends, probably more than he had male friends. I will go into this more extensively later.

I don't understand if work can be nearly everything to a man, why can't it be for a woman? There were some other little things like this as well but I didn't mark them so I am sorry I can't show them here...

Ok, another one I have to think about. It is a good question. I will re-read both passages and see how I feel about them. I will get back to you later with some more ideas.

[Pensive]

I am sorry for being a bit late in replying, summer holidays are making me go lazy.

I think you may be looking at his from a youthful and romantic position. Being older now, I feel that first loves usually doesn't take full root to blossom into a full-fledged long term love relationship or marriage. Lawrence seemed to align Miriam(Jesse) with his mother in several texts I have read, in that she could be controlling and overbearing, in Lawrence's eyes. Did Miriam seem subtly controlling in the book? I thought I recalled that she did and I know there remained a sort of friction between them and it seemed they could not come to agreements on their love-life. I do not know how much this was imagined by Lawrence in his actual case, or if it actually happened, but he did the right thing by not taking her as his wife. I am convinced of that. I know that Jessie must have been heartbroken at the time. I don't believe she ever married, but I am not completely sure of it. My son had a first love that reminds me of this relationship. He was in his early 20's and the girl always seemed to want to control him, or manipulate him in subtle ways; he finally rebelled. He is now happily married and so is she - to different people. The point is this - in the book had it felt right for them, I think they would have worked out their struggles and married, but it was not meant to be.

Well yes, in the novel, Miriam seemed to be very controlling for him.

The short story I have posted this month is interesting - I think Lawrence wrote it about himself going back to see the woman he once loved and broke off with. It is a short short story - only a half dozen pages long, I believe. You might find it quite interesting to read and think in relationship to "Sons and Lovers" and to Lawrence's real life. It all seems to tie in to me. The story is called "The Shades of Spring". It is very nostalgic.

I would check it out now. Seems interesting!

It is indeed interesting what you say about Paul feeling hatred towards Miriam 'for knowing so much about him'. It is always interesting how in L's keen perception, he could see beyond something and into the very core of thinking/reaction in a person. Because now Paul feels vulnerable and revealed to Miriam, he also feels anger towards her. How often we act in strange ways when feeling exposed. This is very psychological, don't you think?

Exactly, it is. I think this book deals with a lot of psychology of human beings, more than most of the books I have read.

This I am not so sure of in the real life with Lawrence and Jesse. She knew the youthful Lawrence, but not the deeper parts of him that she could not comprehend. Lawrence changed much after he left Eastwick and developed as a man and a philosopher/idealist. I think that Jessie remained true to the youthful Lawrence, but she would not have been able to exist in the world of the mature Lawrence, nor in reality could he exist in her limited world.

I am not sure what to say about this, because I have not read of Lawrence as an idealist/philosopher. Sons and Lovers end when Paul left both Miriam and Clara. But this interests me to read his actual biography.

Pensive, in the book, did Paul ask Clara to marry him while they were riding on a train together? I seem to recall that part; if so the character corresponds to Louie Burrows and that was an actual incident. I looked in one of my biographies and it is hard to accertain, but I believe she is one and the same person. If she is I have a wonderful photo of her I will post. She was quite lovely and beautiful.

I don't remember this part. I guess I would have to check some parts of the book again. It was so long, and complex, that while following the plot, I had the chance of forgetting some of the previous things I had read. So forgive me for that.

Most of my books did claim it was aided death, but never confirmed or proven. Probably it was, since the mother was very close to the end when she did die, hanging on my a mere thread. It was awful, as you can imagine from the account in the book, to see her wasting away. You put that so nicely in your paragraph and I too thought it so tear-jerking a scene - truly heart-breaking when Paul was torn between letting her go yet loving her so much to help her to die. The feelings were described very well, indeed. It seemed so real to me.

I am sorry, I used the wrong word which was 'confirmed'. Because we can't be sure about it. In the book, it's made sure that Paul and Annie slipped something in her glass, but this doesn't have to be that killed her. She was already very fragile. But my mind leans towards the aided death. Because she died just after that.

I did not really dislike him either and I rather feel badly now for Lawrence's real father. Lawrence go something of value from both parents and in the end it helped to balance out his life and his writing. His father was depicted harshly in the novel, but he was sad as well, I thought. In reality I don't believe he ever beat Lawrence's mother or the children. He was just harsh and like you said, he was no different than the typical working-class man trying to make a living in the pits for his family. It was a hard job working in darkness day in and day out, to be so dirty and close to the threat of death always. The man had his good side at times. No one in a Lawrence book is all good or all bad, they are all human-beings with weaknesses and strengths and flaws. This is why the characters present a very realistic picture. They are real people.

This is one of the things I liked about Sons and Lovers that the characters look real.

This and the socio-economic issues are another major theme of this book: the encrouchment of industry and modernization on the world. The area depicted in the book is only a microcosom of a much larger situation/problem, facing the earth and the world in the years to come. I often think, if Lawrence were here now and saw how man has abused the earth, he would be appalled. Lawrence was very 'prophetic' in his observations and social commentary.

Yes, it seems like one of the basic themes of the book. I think this book covers most of the topics: relationships which mean both kind of relationships; romantic relationship as well as family relations, moral/religious values of people in that era and in that area, people's mentality (in a word human-psychology) and how the things were changing.

Like you have said in this paragraph 'the need to write what you imagine can be terrible' and it must have been great in one so brilliant and observant as L. I am sure he was inspired and driven; when he saw someone or something he photographed it in his mind and used what he absorbed; expressing all on paper; I think the words naturaly poured out from him. I don't think it ever was intentional at all or vindicative on his part. Unfortunately, people did not agree and they hated his depictions of them. I suppose they felt exposed. I don't think it could have been helped, nor do I think he should have changed a thing he wrote.

Perhaps you are right. How could we have obtained such a good book if Lawrence had had not exaggerated some of the people. But on the other hand I feel with those people also who had their versions exaggerated. Even Lawrence had not liked being exposed to Miriam much you see.

This part I will have to review and think about. It is late now and I am really tired out and can't think of how to answer this; the answer would be quite complex. I will try to do so tomorrow. I do think L knew woman quite well. This insight into women's behavior is very developed in his books to follow. We are seeing it now in "Women in Love". It is as though he has crawled inside their skins at times and knows precisely how they will react to things and to men. He had many good woman friends, probably more than he had male friends. I will go into this more extensively later.


Ok, another one I have to think about. It is a good question. I will re-read both passages and see how I feel about them. I will get back to you later with some more ideas.

Oh you don't have to hurry, whenever you have free time. I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

[Janine]

Pensive, no problem being late answering - good to pace ourselves. Glad you are on summer vacation now. Enjoy your leisure while you can. I can imagine that you worked hard enough all year. I am tired out from posting so much in the WIL discussion and also now in the Lawrence Tortoise Poems thread - stop by and check it out when you have a chance. Ktd222 asked me to start it. It is going well so far. It should be fun.
I will answer your post tomorrow or in the coming days, since you told me to take my time. I am so happy we are discussing S&L. It brings the book back to me. I will review it when I finish up my other book. I am a little tired and lazy myself tonight. I am anxious to finish reading my book (WIL) soon, later tonight or tomorrow night, hopefully.
See you soon ~ Janine

[Janine]

Well yes, in the novel, Miriam seemed to be very controlling for him.

Hi Pensive, Yes, and I do think Miriam seemed to be controlling in a quiet way. Lawrence seemed to perceive her as a threat. This plays into Lawrence's own theories on woman and his deeper (psychological) fears regarding them. I read Lawrence’s first novel “The White Peacock” and this was quite a prominent theme in the book. Lawrence seemed to feel women a definite threat to men, and yet he was drawn to them from the start. In Lawrence’s writing there is always a great deal of conflict – between characters and within the characters themselves. So it was with Miriam. There is a lot of duality in L's writings.

I would check it out now. Seems interesting!

I still have not checked this, but I will. I have been so busy with the other threads. Sorry about that. Also, I told you I would try to scan a picture of Lousia (Louie) Burrows for you. My book has a lovely photo of her; she was quite pretty. There is another woman who comes to mind who was good friends with Jessie. I believe her name was Helen Cork. I forget if Lawrence showed interest in her as a lover to Helen, I think maybe he did. I know for certain he was engaged (not in the ring sense) to Louie.

Good news; I went to my library tonight and found some research books on some of Lawrence’s writings. I found one book that has much about “Sons and Lovers” – critical analysis. I am anxious to see if it can give me some additional insight into the novel.

Exactly, it is. I think this book deals with a lot of psychology of human beings, more than most of the books I have read.

Pensive, you are quite perceptive. Definitely, there is much psychology in Lawrence’s books…all of them. In WIL the book is filled with a more developed sense of the psychology and Lawrence’s personal philosophy, as well. Our current discussions are quite intense and complex with all the psychological elements and the symbolism to discuss.

I am not sure what to say about this, because I have not read of Lawrence as an idealist/philosopher. Sons and Lovers end when Paul left both Miriam and Clara. But this interests me to read his actual biography.

Many critics state that Lawrence was interested in the psychology between the son and the mother and cite the Odiepus complex as a prominent theme in the book. At the time that Lawrence was writing “Sons and Lovers” this sort of thinking was very popular, with Freud’s ideas of the subconscious being newly introduced into society. Biographers say that Lawrence had a ‘unnaturally’ close relationship with his own mother and this is reflected in the book. I don’t personally see this, but many do. The mother did seem to cling to the son for the lack of her relationship with the husband. It is so true that much is evident in regard to the subconscious and psychology of each character, especially Paul and his mother.

I don't remember this part. I guess I would have to check some parts of the book again. It was so long, and complex, that while following the plot, I had the chance of forgetting some of the previous things I had read. So forgive me for that.

I will try checking too. I know it is in one of my biographies. It is hard to find the exact quote – they are thick volumes and I never mark any book. I should take notes, but I forget to and later I am really sorry I did not at least note the page of particular interest.

I am sorry, I used the wrong word which was 'confirmed'. Because we can't be sure about it. In the book, it's made sure that Paul and Annie slipped something in her glass, but this doesn't have to be that killed her. She was already very fragile. But my mind leans towards the aided death. Because she died just after that.

Yes, my thoughts too were that she was very fragile and nearly gone, really at the threshold of ‘death’s door’, and if they increased her medication I certainly sympathise with them. They were only thinking of her own terrible suffering and wanted to put an end to it. It was such a sad part of the book. I felt like I was there with them. It made my heart ache for Lawrence and his sister.

This is one of the things I liked about Sons and Lovers that the characters look real.

Yes, they do seem so real to me. It made sense to know that they were based on real people. All of Lawrence’s books make one feel this way. It is the magic of his writing. He was so intuitive, naturally, and could paint such vivid pictures of the people he characterized.

Yes, it seems like one of the basic themes of the book. I think this book covers most of the topics: relationships which mean both kind of relationships; romantic relationship as well as family relations, moral/religious values of people in that era and in that area, people's mentality (in a word human-psychology) and how the things were changing.

Yes, it did cover all of those themes and aspects of a family life and growing up and going out into the world for the first time. I loved that it was so complete and encompassed so much. Again that is what made it feel quite real.

Perhaps you are right. How could we have obtained such a good book if Lawrence had had not exaggerated some of the people. But on the other hand I feel with those people also who had their versions exaggerated. Even Lawrence had not liked being exposed to Miriam much you see.

Exactly. I suppose every author steps on some toes along the way; I don’t think it can be helped. In the name of art it just happens and ‘you can’t please all the people all of the time’, as the saying goes. Yes, it is true that L did not like to be exposed himself. I felt badly for Miriam and for the father and perhaps some others. Lawrence sometimes contradicted himself and was a very complex man, not easy to figure out. I am sure as a friend it was the same. A good biography would give you better insight into what type a person Lawrence actually was. You might better understand his motives. Many authors do write about what they know and who they know. It is not that unusual when one reads the biographies. I know that Thomas Hardy actually wrote about real incidents. It would seem inevitable that some people would be offended.

Oh you don't have to hurry, whenever you have free time. I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

Same with you; take your time to reply. I will be busy researching more about S&L in the library books I found tonight. I hope it proves interesting.

[quasimodo1]

Sons and Lovers ( S&L) is a ‘ bildungsroman’ (A novel whose principal subject is the moral, psychological, and intellectual development of a usually youthful main character.) Some novels which fall in this category are autobiographical like Dickens’ ‘David Copperfield’ or Joyce’s ‘Portrait of the Artist…’ . Likewise Lawrence’s ‘S & L’, roughly deals with the childhood, adolescence and early adulthood of the author. It is a frank portrayal of the relationship between a domineering mother and the son, a relationship that influences every aspect of the protagonist’s life. From his relationship with his father to his romantic affairs with two very different women.

The Story

Paul Morel grows up in The Bottoms, a community of coal miners in Nottinghamshire. A background almost identical to Lawrence’s own. His mother, Gertrude Coppard Morel-- & father, Walter, have had a horrible marriage. Within six months into the marriage she realized her mistake of marrying a man significantly having a different temperament than her. She fought hard to change him, to make him undertake his own responsibilities, to make him fulfill his obligations. But his sensuous nature refused to become moral and religious. The unfulfilled woman concentrates on her sons. Paul grows up in the shadow of a smothering mother. He becomes an artist and begins to have relationships with women: the innocent, old-fashioned, Miriam Leivers and Clara Dawes, married but estranged and provocatively modern. Of course, his mother’s looming presence dominates his life and hence these relationships end badly.

Meanwhile, when his mother contracts cancer, Paul murders her with morphine. The novel ends with him striding confidently towards a golden future, borne up by the continuing support of her love for him.

Lawrence- A Painter

Lawrence is beautifully attentive to descriptive detail and even his characterization come up as portraits. The life of the working class and the English country side are captured to almost perfection. Something done so well by Thomas Hardy The characters are life like especially the mother, Mrs. Morel.

Freud & Oedipus Complex

’’ When Lawrence began the novel he had only passing knowledge of the Freudian theories regarding the mother-son relationship(Oedipus Complex). Essentially the author was writing from experience: the psychic bond between Mrs. Morel and her son, Paul, was very similar to the bond shared by Lawrence and his mother. This bond between son and mother amounts almost to a husband and wife sort of love - without the sex - and prevents the son from ever achieving a fully satisfactory relationship with another woman because of the hold the mother has on the son’s soul. It is not until the mother is dead that the son is able to begin to free himself from her hold. The novel, then, is the story of that struggle. ’’

Religion

Miriam, one of Paul’s lovers is extremely religious. She possesses intense piety and religion and believes that her brothers and father are too vulgar, for they have no regard for church or God. Her love for Paul is more of a worship and she even associates God with their relationship. The rose bush is just like a parallel to their relationship.

Industrialisation

There are significant mention of industrialization all through. Mrs Morel is a bored wife of a miner. Mrs. Morel is confident that William will achieve a better profession than mining. She knows that William is capable of more than her husband ever was, and wants William to pursue all that he can achieve. The trains of transport. Paul finds a job at a company that makes surgical appliances. He is becoming part of the great industrial movement of England.
Arthur, the youngest Morel child, gets a job at Minton Pit, doing electrical work. He, as with Paul, enters the work force, doing a profession that requires skill and technical knowledge.

Drawbacks

The initial chapters are good and the descriptions are refreshing but later the book drags along. SONS AND LOVERS is not a ’’feel good’’ read, and Paul’s inability to break free from the psychological bondage with his mother is frustrating and sometimes exasperating. Paul’s obsession, frustration, and indecision about the women in his life at times seem ridiculous especially that with Miriam.

Uniqueness

It is a peep into the life of the author, D.H. Lawrence who has written a woman’s thoughts better than many female writers have. May be it was his close relationship with his mother that he was able to understand women so well . Lawrence is very vulnerable here because he not only exposes himself as the son, but also inevitable as the lover.


Would recommend every mother and son to read this novel

I don't necessarily go along with this review; not all of it. Still, in following this thread, I was losing track of the overview. Maybe this helps. quasimodo1

[Janine]

Sons and Lovers ( S&L) is a ‘ bildungsroman’ (A novel whose principal subject is the moral, psychological, and intellectual development of a usually youthful main character.) Some novels which fall in this category are autobiographical like Dickens’ ‘David Copperfield’ or Joyce’s ‘Portrait of the Artist…’ . Likewise Lawrence’s ‘S & L’, roughly deals with the childhood, adolescence and early adulthood of the author. It is a frank portrayal of the relationship between a domineering mother and the son, a relationship that influences every aspect of the protagonist’s life. From his relationship with his father to his romantic affairs with two very different women.

Hi Quasi, Nice to see you join in. This information is quite good, although I don't agree either with all of it. I cringed when I read the blunt line: "Paul murders her with morphine".
Pensive and I have already cited that it is merely conjecture that this even happened, or at least in Lawrence's real life. In Paul's case, the euthenasia is not 'murder', in my eyes. The woman was nearly in the grave; suffering unspeakable. His act was out of deepest love and compassion. She may have died without the morphine overdose, who knows? I think in the book we are left to wonder about that.

The part about Lawrence, the painter, is excellent and of course, Lawrence did physically paint and sketch, as well. He once said if he was not doing one he was doing the other. L was rarely idle. He also claimed if he stopped working he would simply die, and he meant this literally since he had TB most of his life and struggled with his health.

Freud & Oedipus Complex

’’ When Lawrence began the novel he had only passing knowledge of the Freudian theories regarding the mother-son relationship(Oedipus Complex). Essentially the author was writing from experience: the psychic bond between Mrs. Morel and her son, Paul, was very similar to the bond shared by Lawrence and his mother. This bond between son and mother amounts almost to a husband and wife sort of love - without the sex - and prevents the son from ever achieving a fully satisfactory relationship with another woman because of the hold the mother has on the son’s soul. It is not until the mother is dead that the son is able to begin to free himself from her hold. The novel, then, is the story of that struggle. ’’

I especially like this part. This explains much better than I could have in one of my previous posts. Last night I read a letter in Lawrence's own words explaining the situation family-wise and his close relationship to his mother. It is very interesting and revealing, indeed. I have to type out the passage; it is quite long. I know you will all like this very much. It takes what you have quoted to a new dimension. I must type it out tonight and have it ready to post tomorrow (hopefully).

Also, there are a couple of other letters that will be of great interest to you, Pensive, about the Miriam/Paul - Jessie/Lawrence relationship. One is shorter in Lawrence's words and the other Jessie wrote, and is a more than two pages long. Again another typing job.

Good news Pensive - I found an entire book on commentary on "Sons and Lovers" in my library last night. It is an older book, but has some excellent letters and other information about the book and characters.
One thing I found out in my initial reading is that that Clara was not actually based on anyone in particular, but a combination of three women Lawrence knew. She is basically a totally fictional character, or so this book claims.

Religion

Miriam, one of Paul’s lovers is extremely religious. She possesses intense piety and religion and believes that her brothers and father are too vulgar, for they have no regard for church or God. Her love for Paul is more of a worship and she even associates God with their relationship. The rose bush is just like a parallel to their relationship.

Yes, this is also quite good. I like the worship part especially and how Miriam viewed Paul. I believe it was so also of Jessie towards Lawrence. The passage by Jessie in my book reveals some of this idea and shows how her image of him becomes tarnished or shattered. As I said, I will be typing this out for all to read.

Drawbacks

The initial chapters are good and the descriptions are refreshing but later the book drags along. SONS AND LOVERS is not a ’’feel good’’ read, and Paul’s inability to break free from the psychological bondage with his mother is frustrating and sometimes exasperating. Paul’s obsession, frustration, and indecision about the women in his life at times seem ridiculous especially that with Miriam.

Quasi, It has been a while since I read the book, but although Lawrence's books sometimes move slower in places, I never feel they drag along. I think he paced the stories this way as some authors use humor to break up the text and plot. He also often reflects the seasons and the ebb and flow of life. I think it depends on individual taste as to whether a person 'feels good' reading his work. I dispute that notion as irrelevant. Mostly Lawrence has real 'gravity' to his work and therefore it is not a nice little story with sweet one dimensional characters. All characters are complex and layered and therefore there are no good guys, bad guys, or happy, sad guys. It is as it would be in real life.

Uniqueness

It is a peep into the life of the author, D.H. Lawrence who has written a woman’s thoughts better than many female writers have. May be it was his close relationship with his mother that he was able to understand women so well . Lawrence is very vulnerable here because he not only exposes himself as the son, but also inevitable as the lover.

How well put this is! I believe that is why he so often appeals to women, although I have know some men who love his work, as well. However, the feminists seem to have turned against Lawrence in the past; he offended many of their principles. It may have been partly grave misunderstanding, but I do see some of his philosophies as ones they would greatly oppose. The last statement of this quote is also very interesting in terms of 'son and lover'.

Quasi, final note: where did you get this information? Who is the author of the quotes?

[Pensive]

Hi Pensive, Yes, and I do think Miriam seemed to be controlling in a quiet way. Lawrence seemed to perceive her as a threat. This plays into Lawrence's own theories on woman and his deeper (psychological) fears regarding them. I read Lawrence’s first novel “The White Peacock” and this was quite a prominent theme in the book. Lawrence seemed to feel women a definite threat to men, and yet he was drawn to them from the start. In Lawrence’s writing there is always a great deal of conflict – between characters and within the characters themselves. So it was with Miriam. There is a lot of duality in L's writings.

Yes, I have also noticed the conflicts a lot. This really makes me wonder what were Lawrence's religious views? In the book, Paul's own religious views are not much highlighted. As far as I remember, there was this passage in which Paul's religious views seemed to be having a conflict.

I still have not checked this, but I will. I have been so busy with the other threads. Sorry about that. Also, I told you I would try to scan a picture of Lousia (Louie) Burrows for you. My book has a lovely photo of her; she was quite pretty. There is another woman who comes to mind who was good friends with Jessie. I believe her name was Helen Cork. I forget if Lawrence showed interest in her as a lover to Helen, I think maybe he did. I know for certain he was engaged (not in the ring sense) to Louie.

Oh I can understand. You must be discussing Women in Love as well. I have checked it out in my local book-shop, couldn't find it there, but have asked for it. It might be available soon. Or else I have decided I wouldn't wait and read it online.

It would be nice of you if you can post the picture. Thanks.

Good news; I went to my library tonight and found some research books on some of Lawrence’s writings. I found one book that has much about “Sons and Lovers” – critical analysis. I am anxious to see if it can give me some additional insight into the novel.

This is a really good news!

Pensive, you are quite perceptive. Definitely, there is much psychology in Lawrence’s books…all of them. In WIL the book is filled with a more developed sense of the psychology and Lawrence’s personal philosophy, as well. Our current discussions are quite intense and complex with all the psychological elements and the symbolism to discuss.

Complex books encourage complex thoughts, and complex thoughts encourage a complex discussion.

Many critics state that Lawrence was interested in the psychology between the son and the mother and cite the Odiepus complex as a prominent theme in the book. At the time that Lawrence was writing “Sons and Lovers” this sort of thinking was very popular, with Freud’s ideas of the subconscious being newly introduced into society. Biographers say that Lawrence had a ‘unnaturally’ close relationship with his own mother and this is reflected in the book. I don’t personally see this, but many do. The mother did seem to cling to the son for the lack of her relationship with the husband. It is so true that much is evident in regard to the subconscious and psychology of each character, especially Paul and his mother.

Interesting! I just checked out wikipedia, and read some of Freud's theory. I am not sure if people would agree with me here but his theories didn't seem very sane to me. By my own personal experience, those I know, my obervations, I get this feeling his theories don't seem to apply. Same seems to be the case in Sons and Lovers. The son was closer to his mother because she was the one who spent time with him. A person like Morel, who worked hard in the mines, then came home late mostly, he would hardly have time to share things with his son. Mother who remained at home was more likely to do so. As for the mother preferring son, there can be several reasons for that. It is I think mentioned in the book also, when her children were born she found a way to divert attention from her husband. And the kind of woman Mrs. Morel was, it was not difficult to figure out that she considered men as the bread-earner, not the women. Men were considered physically powerful as well. I think that's the reason why she was closer to her sons than Annie.

The other reason as to why Lawrence was so close to her mother can also be the death of William. I remember fairly well that after that incident, they got even more close. This is also natural for a mother to feel more protected of her son after such a terrible death of her son at a young age. I don't think Freud's theory has got anything to do with this.

I will try checking too. I know it is in one of my biographies. It is hard to find the exact quote – they are thick volumes and I never mark any book. I should take notes, but I forget to and later I am really sorry I did not at least note the page of particular interest.

Oh no problem. It's okay.

Yes, my thoughts too were that she was very fragile and nearly gone, really at the threshold of ‘death’s door’, and if they increased her medication I certainly sympathise with them. They were only thinking of her own terrible suffering and wanted to put an end to it. It was such a sad part of the book. I felt like I was there with them. It made my heart ache for Lawrence and his sister.

Yes, the book had turned very emotional.

Yes, it did cover all of those themes and aspects of a family life and growing up and going out into the world for the first time. I loved that it was so complete and encompassed so much. Again that is what made it feel quite real.

I agree.

Exactly. I suppose every author steps on some toes along the way; I don’t think it can be helped. In the name of art it just happens and ‘you can’t please all the people all of the time’, as the saying goes. Yes, it is true that L did not like to be exposed himself. I felt badly for Miriam and for the father and perhaps some others. Lawrence sometimes contradicted himself and was a very complex man, not easy to figure out. I am sure as a friend it was the same. A good biography would give you better insight into what type a person Lawrence actually was. You might better understand his motives. Many authors do write about what they know and who they know. It is not that unusual when one reads the biographies. I know that Thomas Hardy actually wrote about real incidents. It would seem inevitable that some people would be offended.

Yes, I might try his biography but Women in Love at first. I am quite excited about that.

Same with you; take your time to reply. I will be busy researching more about S&L in the library books I found tonight. I hope it proves interesting.

Me too!

Thanks quasmodo, though I feel as if I don't agree with all points. But still it's a good review.

Freud & Oedipus Complex

’’ When Lawrence began the novel he had only passing knowledge of the Freudian theories regarding the mother-son relationship(Oedipus Complex). Essentially the author was writing from experience: the psychic bond between Mrs. Morel and her son, Paul, was very similar to the bond shared by Lawrence and his mother. This bond between son and mother amounts almost to a husband and wife sort of love - without the sex - and prevents the son from ever achieving a fully satisfactory relationship with another woman because of the hold the mother has on the son’s soul. It is not until the mother is dead that the son is able to begin to free himself from her hold. The novel, then, is the story of that struggle. ’’

I have given my views about it in my earlier post.

Drawbacks

The initial chapters are good and the descriptions are refreshing but later the book drags along. SONS AND LOVERS is not a ’’feel good’’ read, and Paul’s inability to break free from the psychological bondage with his mother is frustrating and sometimes exasperating. Paul’s obsession, frustration, and indecision about the women in his life at times seem ridiculous especially that with Miriam.

I agree with what you have said here, but I wouldn't call this the draw-back of the novel. On the other hand, I feel this is the good thing about it. It's real.

Uniqueness

It is a peep into the life of the author, D.H. Lawrence who has written a woman’s thoughts better than many female writers have. May be it was his close relationship with his mother that he was able to understand women so well . Lawrence is very vulnerable here because he not only exposes himself as the son, but also inevitable as the lover.

In a way I agree. He has certainly expressed the women he knew very well. A very deep insight of women he knew. But there were some general statements he made about females which I didn't like very much. And this makes me feel as if feminists do have a point if they critisize his attitude towards women. Here is this passage I previously quoted, but now this seems relevant to it:

"Oh, I don't think it won't be a great deal. Only you'll find
earning your own living isn't everything."

"No," she said, swallowing with difficulty; "I don't suppose
it is."

"I suppose work CAN be nearly everything to a man," he said,
"though it isn't to me. But a woman only works with a part of
herself. The real and vital part is covered up."

"But a man can give ALL himself to work?" she asked.

"Yes, practically."

"And a woman only the unimportant part of herself?"

"That's it."

Also, there are a couple of other letters that will be of great interest to you, Pensive, about the Miriam/Paul - Jessie/Lawrence relationship. One is shorter in Lawrence's words and the other Jessie wrote, and is a more than two pages long. Again another typing job.

Perhaps you can type only some parts of it? The ones you think are most interesting.

Good news Pensive - I found an entire book on commentary on "Sons and Lovers" in my library last night. It is an older book, but has some excellent letters and other information about the book and characters.
One thing I found out in my initial reading is that that Clara was not actually based on anyone in particular, but a combination of three women Lawrence knew. She is basically a totally fictional character, or so this book claims.

It's a striking news. I had no idea it would be so! Thanks a lot for giving this piece of information.

Yes, this is also quite good. I like the worship part especially and how Miriam viewed Paul. I believe it was so also of Jessie towards Lawrence. The passage by Jessie in my book reveals some of this idea and shows how her image of him becomes tarnished or shattered. As I said, I will be typing this out for all to read.

That's nice of you.

How well put this is! I believe that is why he so often appeals to women, although I have know some men who love his work, as well. However, the feminists seem to have turned against Lawrence in the past; he offended many of their principles. It may have been partly grave misunderstanding, but I do see some of his philosophies as ones they would greatly oppose. The last statement of this quote is also very interesting in terms of 'son and lover'.

I don't call myself a feminist, but there are things in which I agree with their principles. And I feel I agree with them again in the matter of this book. The views of Paul, though highly interesting, but seemed very particular, confined to the study of some women he knew, very much to me. But I van be wrong of course in this feeling. I have explained it in my earlier than the earlier post.

[Janine]

Yes, I have also noticed the conflicts a lot. This really makes me wonder what were Lawrence's religious views? In the book, Paul's own religious views are not much highlighted. As far as I remember, there was this passage in which Paul's religious views seemed to be having a conflict.

Yes, many conflicts in all of Lawrence's works. Very good citing the religion as one form of conflict. Another hard question to difinitively answer is about religion and L's beliefs. I felt in S&L much the same way you did; that Paul was in conflict about his religious views. I believe in L's own life he went through many stages from non-belief to rebirth and belief in a religious sense, but not a 'conventional' religious sense, at all. Virgil knows more about this and he can explain it much better than I can. I will ask him to check in here, unless he is reading along; he can fill in more of the details and explain. L's religion was more of a mystical sense of living.

Oh I can understand. You must be discussing Women in Love as well. I have checked it out in my local book-shop, couldn't find it there, but have asked for it. It might be available soon. Or else I have decided I wouldn't wait and read it online.

Wow, that discussion is really something - now it is taking off and is so active, I can hardly keep up. It is very challenging though. Thanks for being understanding if I delay here on this thread. We are nearly at the end of the book. I may finish up tonight. I was too tired last night and it was too late. I hope you can find the book. Interestingly though it is not at all like "Sons and Lovers". I found a quote last night by Lawrence that said he would never write another novel like "Sons and Lovers" again. He would go onto something new. "Women in Love" is more involved, I believe. You know more complex with a lot of symbolism, etc. Anyway, hope you find the book. I bought mine off Amazon - a newer version by Cambridge. It is suppose to have some restored parts but so far I don't see a difference but the extras are worth buying that edition. We also have it listed on Lit Net as you said. You could print out chapter by chapter to read.

It would be nice of you if you can post the picture. Thanks.

I tried to find it online, but no good. There is a terrific online exhibit at Nottingham University. Cambridge has some things online about Lawrence as well, or it all might be in conjunction. I am not sure now. I will get the link and post it next time. You will love the sites.

Complex books encourage complex thoughts, and complex thoughts encourage a complex discussion.

Pensive, this is wonderful - did you write it? can I use it for my signature quote? I could say: Quote by Pensive:.........
It is so well put and so true!

Interesting! I just checked out wikipedia, and read some of Freud's theory. I am not sure if people would agree with me here but his theories didn't seem very sane to me. By my own personal experience, those I know, my obervations, I get this feeling his theories don't seem to apply. Same seems to be the case in Sons and Lovers. The son was closer to his mother because she was the one who spent time with him. A person like Morel, who worked hard in the mines, then came home late mostly, he would hardly have time to share things with his son. Mother who remained at home was more likely to do so. As for the mother preferring son, there can be several reasons for that. It is I think mentioned in the book also, when her children were born she found a way to divert attention from her husband. And the kind of woman Mrs. Morel was, it was not difficult to figure out that she considered men as the bread-earner, not the women. Men were considered physically powerful as well. I think that's the reason why she was closer to her sons than Annie.

Excellent going to check out Freud. I should read that entry myself. I forget so much; that will take me back to my college days.
I don't know if I agree with you entirely since I read that letter by Lawrence last night about his relationship to his mother. I can't wait to show that to you and see what you think. Have patience, since I am such a slow typist. I am going to try and scan it in and see if that works, or maybe I can type from the scan, easier than from the book.

The other reason as to why Lawrence was so close to her mother can also be the death of William. I remember fairly well that after that incident, they got even more close. This is also natural for a mother to feel more protected of her son after such a terrible death of her son at a young age. I don't think Freud's theory has got anything to do with this.

I think you are right in saying that added into the equation of why Lawrence and the mother were so close. I do agree with somethings in your last passage. I agree about the relationship of the mother and father and the effect it had on the family. I am sure this did make Paul's mother turn to her children for solace, comfort, companionship and love, etc.

Yes, the book had turned very emotional.

It did towards the end; the second part you called 'Lovers' really got intense, didn't it?

Yes, I might try his biography but Women in Love at first. I am quite excited about that.

Well, for now just read a short biography online and then later you may want to explore a more indepth one. You will definitely find WIL interesting. After you do read it we can discuss it and also you can go into the thread and read all that was written in the discussion group. It has been a fantastic discussion in there. I have learned so much.

Thanks quasmodo, though I feel as if I don't agree with all points. But still it's a good review.

Yes, Quasi, good points brought out in that post. Thanks again!

In a way I agree. He has certainly expressed the women he knew very well. A very deep insight of women he knew. But there were some general statements he made about females which I didn't like very much. And this makes me feel as if feminists do have a point if they critisize his attitude towards women. Here is this passage I previously quoted, but now this seems relevant to it:

I agree with you as well on this. Some of his statements sometimes bring up the hairs on my back in defense, being a woman. Yes, that passage seems to be one sided doesn't it. I think by WIL he felt differently about this. But Lawrence said himself that his path was the only one and he felt he should be followed. Many women would take offense to that notion. He did bruise the sensibilities of many a female. It is true. Lawrence was sometimes very much an enigma and he displayed a certain duality in his own personality and his beliefs. I think sometimes he does contradict his own words within a novel. This passage in particular does not seem so definite to me. He seems to be arrogant at the time and perhaps he is just displaying this part of Paul's immaturity/confusion at that time. I don't think Lawrence ultimately felt this way about women in the work force. Here he was talking to Miriam, wasn't he? I have to be honest I am not sure if either of us are taking this passage as it is intended to be meant. I will ask Virgil his take on it. I am a little confused about it presently.

Perhaps you can type only some parts of it? The ones you think are most interesting.

Good suggestion. I will see if I can. No problem; I enjoy sharing information when I find it.

It's a striking news. I had no idea it would be so! Thanks a lot for giving this piece of information.

Yes, I found it interesting also that Clara was a combination of women L knew.

I don't call myself a feminist, but there are things in which I agree with their principles. And I feel I agree with them again in the matter of this book. The views of Paul, though highly interesting, but seemed very particular, confined to the study of some women he knew, very much to me. But I van be wrong of course in this feeling. I have explained it in my earlier than the earlier post.

This I am not sure of. I think you are right in that the views were pertaining to particular women in the book and not all women by far. It was a very personal portrayal of these characters and his intimacies. Is that what you meant?

[Pensive]

Yes, many conflicts in all of Lawrence's works. Very good citing the religion as one form of conflict. Another hard question to difinitively answer is about religion and L's beliefs. I felt in S&L much the same way you did; that Paul was in conflict about his religious views. I believe in L's own life he went through many stages from non-belief to rebirth and belief in a religious sense, but not a 'conventional' religious sense, at all. Virgil knows more about this and he can explain it much better than I can. I will ask him to check in here, unless he is reading along; he can fill in more of the details and explain. L's religion was more of a mystical sense of living.

The book has some very interesting thoughts of Paul regarding this, but the trouble is they are very much contradictory. It's not easy to judge by them to which religion (or perhaps to none) he belonged.

I hope Virgil also gets time to give his thoughts about it, and we are not disturbing him.

Wow, that discussion is really something - now it is taking off and is so active, I can hardly keep up. It is very challenging though. Thanks for being understanding if I delay here on this thread. We are nearly at the end of the book. I may finish up tonight. I was too tired last night and it was too late. I hope you can find the book. Interestingly though it is not at all like "Sons and Lovers". I found a quote last night by Lawrence that said he would never write another novel like "Sons and Lovers" again. He would go onto something new. "Women in Love" is more involved, I believe. You know more complex with a lot of symbolism, etc. Anyway, hope you find the book. I bought mine off Amazon - a newer version by Cambridge. It is suppose to have some restored parts but so far I don't see a difference but the extras are worth buying that edition. We also have it listed on Lit Net as you said. You could print out chapter by chapter to read.

I had thought of printing it, but you see it has many chapters, and is quite long which would make it difficult for me to print it out. My printer is quite slow as well.

If I get it late, then I would still like to read the discussion of yours about it. Sometimes it's interesting to be just an observor rather a participant!

I tried to find it online, but no good. There is a terrific online exhibit at Nottingham University.

No problem!

Cambridge has some things online about Lawrence as well, or it all might be in conjunction. I am not sure now. I will get the link and post it next time. You will love the sites.

I am quite sure I would like it. Thanks!

Pensive, this is wonderful - did you write it? can I use it for my signature quote? I could say: Quote by Pensive:.........
It is so well put and so true!

Ummm...yes, I wrote it. But it was just an ordinary thought...

Excellent going to check out Freud. I should read that entry myself. I forget so much; that will take me back to my college days.

Hey Janine, you seem to be knowing quite a lot about Lawrence and the books, now it seems to be as if you have been a literature student!

I don't know if I agree with you entirely since I read that letter by Lawrence last night about his relationship to his mother. I can't wait to show that to you and see what you think. Have patience, since I am such a slow typist. I am going to try and scan it in and see if that works, or maybe I can type from the scan, easier than from the book.

I think you are right in saying that added into the equation of why Lawrence and the mother were so close. I do agree with somethings in your last passage. I agree about the relationship of the mother and father and the effect it had on the family. I am sure this did make Paul's mother turn to her children for solace, comfort, companionship and love, etc.

This seems interesting. I would like to see what he has got to say in the letter. And take as much time as you want, Janine! But according to what I read in the book, I got this feeling that Freud's theory had got nothing to do with Paul's relationship with his mother.

It did towards the end; the second part you called 'Lovers' really got intense, didn't it?

Yes, very much. It was a tear-jerker on many places.

Well, for now just read a short biography online and then later you may want to explore a more indepth one. You will definitely find WIL interesting. After you do read it we can discuss it and also you can go into the thread and read all that was written in the discussion group. It has been a fantastic discussion in there. I have learned so much.

I have read a bit about him on wikipedia, but would try to look at other sources as well. I am glad I read Sons and Lovers in summer vacations.

I agree with you as well on this. Some of his statements sometimes bring up the hairs on my back in defense, being a woman. Yes, that passage seems to be one sided doesn't it. I think by WIL he felt differently about this. But Lawrence said himself that his path was the only one and he felt he should be followed. Many women would take offense to that notion. He did bruise the sensibilities of many a female. It is true. Lawrence was sometimes very much an enigma and he displayed a certain duality in his own personality and his beliefs. I think sometimes he does contradict his own words within a novel. This passage in particular does not seem so definite to me. He seems to be arrogant at the time and perhaps he is just displaying this part of Paul's immaturity/confusion at that time. I don't think Lawrence ultimately felt this way about women in the work force. Here he was talking to Miriam, wasn't he? I have to be honest I am not sure if either of us are taking this passage as it is intended to be meant. I will ask Virgil his take on it. I am a little confused about it presently

Yes, it's the last time he talks to Miriam in Sons and Lovers, before he leaves. I am myself not too sure if he certainly meant to say what I comprehended.

Good suggestion. I will see if I can. No problem; I enjoy sharing information when I find it.

And I enjoy reading the information you share.

This I am not sure of. I think you are right in that the views were pertaining to particular women in the book and not all women by far. It was a very personal portrayal of these characters and his intimacies. Is that what you meant?

A kind of. But what I actually meant was by reading the book, we couldn't have been sure the images as women he had of Clara and Miriam could apply to other women if he had been careful enough not to generalise them. It seemed to me as if Paul was generalizing women; making up his views about the whole female kind just by judging the women he knew. But perhaps I am wrong in this feeling, as I have already said...

[Janine]

The book has some very interesting thoughts of Paul regarding this, but the trouble is they are very much contradictory. It's not easy to judge by them to which religion (or perhaps to none) he belonged.

Pensive, You know, it is characteristic that Lawrence's characters sometimes are quite contradictory. I just found something in my commentary book on that point, more in relation to WIL book. Lawrence, himself in real life could be contradictory at times. Well, all I can say is that many people in can be condradictory and also unsure of their religious beliefs or if they even have any. I don't think in this novel L's religious beliefs have been fully explored. He is merely beginning to reject the old, conventional ways of thought. Later on, in his more advanced novels and writings, he truly does want a new order to life and forms his own ideas and thoughts about religion. Even into the last part of his life, he began to think differently about death and the hereafter. It was always a 'progression' and 'transformation' for Lawrence throughout his life. This is not easily explained without going into many aspects of his philosophy. In "Sons and Lovers", L is reflecting only the beginnings of this progression.

I hope Virgil also gets time to give his thoughts about it, and we are not disturbing him.

I did point it out to him in one of the threads. Hope he catches it. You won't be disturbing him...he already is disturbed - he would laugh himself silly hearing me say that. (Of course I am just kidding.) NO, I am sure he would be happy to add something about religion to this discussion.

I had thought of printing it, but you see it has many chapters, and is quite long which would make it difficult for me to print it out. My printer is quite slow as well.

I fully understand. Actually my printer is fast - I bought a nice 3 in one type last year. It scans, copies and prints in full color. Still to print out the book does take much ink. I printed out one of the L short stories and then found I had it in a book. What a waste of ink, right?

If I get it late, then I would still like to read the discussion of yours about it. Sometimes it's interesting to be just an observor rather a participant!

Well, I would hold off to not spoil the book. You could refer back to the discussion later - these threads seem to stay on forever, don't they? Or copy all out and put in a program on your computer. That way you can read it as you go from chapter to chapter. True that sometimes it is fun to be an observer on here - I have done that and learned much. I feel like a spy - it is rather fun!

I am quite sure I would like it. Thanks!

Good! Hope you come to any of the future L discussions.

Ummm...yes, I wrote it. But it was just an ordinary thought...

No need to blush. No ones thoughts are ever ordinary. It must have been important.

Hey Janine, you seem to be knowing quite a lot about Lawrence and the books, now it seems to be as if you have been a literature student!

Never, not at all - I graduated art college with a BFA in illustration. Actually, illustration does relate somewhat to literature, doen't it? In grade school I had problems with reading. I never could read aloud in the class, even in high school. I had a mortal fear of it and could never pronounce words correctly. I still struggle with that part of literature but I am improving since I joined Lit Net. I think more than likely I had a reading learning disability. Now I read slow but fine. Also in grade school they discovered I needed glasses - that is why I fell behind not being able to read the blackboard.
I have read a lot of books on Lawrence, all independently. It is just something I love. If I love something enough I pursue it avidly. I am pretty much obsessed with this study by now. A few years back, I was obsessed with Thomas Hardy; had to read all his books. I read some brief biographies, but not a full one, not yet...someday maybe. For now, I am back to Lawrence. With the added convenience of finding more information and books on Amazon I have bought some lately such as 'Complete Collected Poems', 'Selected Letters of L', two new biographies, and various other things.

This seems interesting. I would like to see what he has got to say in the letter. And take as much time as you want, Janine! But according to what I read in the book, I got this feeling that Freud's theory had got nothing to do with Paul's relationship with his mother.

Like I said - scanned some pages and found it will work and is readable. I do that tonight...the scanning part. Well, Lawrence seems to think it does in his case so I think that would apply to Paul. More on this whole idea later.

Yes, very much. It was a tear-jerker on many places.

Yes, parts of the book went right to the tear-ducts. Had to keep tissues on hand.

I have read a bit about him on wikipedia, but would try to look at other sources as well. I am glad I read Sons and Lovers in summer vacations.

So your vacation had begun then? Some are later. How long does it last? Enjoy while you can! Good time to read it when leisurely on vacation. I hate reading Lawrence work fast - one needs time to full absorb it.

[QUOTE]Yes, it's the last time he talks to Miriam in Sons and Lovers, before he leaves. I am myself not too sure if he certainly meant to say what I comprehended. [QUOTE]

Oh that makes more sense then. Maybe his words were not so true to what he really felt. It sounds like an upsetting scene and he was not too sure on his part, just saying those things like a man might say...you know....men, right - half the time they don't really know exactly what they want....hahahehehe!

And I enjoy reading the information you share.

Thanks, glad to share it, as I said. Gee, lately I feel like a 'wealth of knowledge' since I am pretty well read on Lawrence, by now, and it seems to be him month on Lit Net. I like being enthusiastic about it and love sharing it others. I have tons of neat photos I will post for you, also. I have to upload them to my photo hosting site first. I found interesting photos online - Lawrence/his family/friends/etc.

A kind of. But what I actually meant was by reading the book, we couldn't have been sure the images as women he had of Clara and Miriam could apply to other women if he had been careful enough not to generalise them. It seemed to me as if Paul was generalizing women; making up his views about the whole female kind just by judging the women he knew. But perhaps I am wrong in this feeling, as I have already said...

Perhaps he did generalize them somewhat. Lawrence felt his books were 'art' above all else. I think, too he wrote about women of his day; and remember this book was early in the 20th century and women did not have the freedoms or free attitudes woman have today. I felt I could relate to some of the aspects and characteristics of the women in S&L. I have been hurt in love affairs before, so I felt an affinity to Miriam, at times.
In some ways Paul's images are tainted with his attitudes towards woman. Pschology plays a big role in this, in that Lawrence felt he was in fear of women. He felt that a woman could destroy a man. We just disgussed this in the other thread. Virgil very outspokenly pointed out the psychological reasoning behind this idea. I will try to see what page it is on and you can go in and read it. It will give you some insight on L's views of women.
In many ways L is definitely a 'paradox' when it comes to women. He had tons of women friends, even feminists, and he seemed to be able to see right to the soul of a woman in describing her, yet he had this deep-seeded fear of woman, yet he wanted one woman and married and stayed faithful. Later his theories on life and marriage in a new light are born from some of this fear. Most likely his mother's influence had a lot to do with this. I found this in one of the letters: "It has been rather terrible and made me, in some respects, abnornal." Those are L's exact words, regarding his close relationship to his mother.
I've scanned some pages of text and it worked well. I will scan those letters later tonight and post the photo of Louie Burrows along with the texts.

[Janine]

Pensive, here's the photos I promised. I am working on the letter - the first one that Lawrence wrote about his relationship to his mother. You will find it very interesting. I was able to scan the letters directly into my Microsoft Word documents and they corrected the scan automatically. Now I have to piece together the documents and will post it tomorrow.

Jessie (Miriam)


Louie Burrows (his fiance)



Pensive, you can find much more information and photos on this great site:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/onli...hl/index.phtml

If you go to 'Portal' also on the left, last listed, it takes you to another site that is good and has more great photos. Enjoy!

[Janine]

Pensive, Ok, here is the letter:

DHL to To Rachel Annand Taylor, 3 December 1910

I have been at home now ten days. My mother is very near the end.: Today I have been to Leicester. I did not get home till half past nine. Then I ran upstairs. Oh she was very bad. The pains had been again.
'Oh my dear' I said, 'is it the pains?'
'Not pain now - Oh the weariness' she moaned, so that I could hardly hear her. I wish she could die tonight.
My sister and I do all the nursing. My sister is only 22. I sit upstairs hours and hours till I wonder if ever it were true that I was at London. I seem to have died since, and that is an old life, dreamy.
I will tell you. My mother was a clever, ironical delicately moulded woman of good, old burgher descent. She married below her. My father was dark, ruddy, with a fine laugh. He is a

* Referring to The Trespasser?
t Referring to The White Peacock?
~ Lawrence's mother died on 9 December 191O~

coal miner. He was one of the sanguine temperament, warm and hearty, but unstable: he lacked principle, as my mother would have said. He deceived her and lied to her. She despised him - he drank.
Their marriage life has been one carnal, bloody fight. I was born hating my father: as early as ever I can remember, I shivered with horror when he touched me. He was very- bad before I was born.
This has been a kind of bond between me and my mother. We have loved each other, almost with a husband and wife love, as well as filial and maternal. We know each other by instinct. She said to my aunt - about me: 'But it has been different with him. He has seemed to be part of me.' - And that is the real case. We have been like one, so sensitive to each other that we never needed words. It has been rather terrible and has made me, in some respects, abnormal.
I think this peculiar fusion of soul (don't think me highfalutin) never comes twice in a life-time - it doesn't seem natural. When it comes it seems to distribute one's consciousness far abroad from oneself, and one understands! I think no one has got 'Understanding' except through love. Now my mother is nearly dead, and I don't quite know how I am.
I have been to Leicester today, I have met a girl* who has always been warm for me - iike a sunny happy day - and I've gone and asked her to marry me: in the train, quite unpremeditated, between Rothley and Quorn - she lives at Quorn. When I think of her I feel happy with a sort of warm radiation - she is big and dark and handsome. There were five other people in the carriage. Then when I think of my mother: - if you've ever put your hand round the bowl of a champagne glass and squeezed it and wondered how near it is to crushing-in and the wine all going through your fingers - that's how my heart feels - like the champagne glass. There is no hostility between the warm happiness and the crush of misery: but one is concentrated in my, chest, and one is diffuse - a suffusion, vague.

* Louie Burrows, according to Jessie Chambers, one of-the models for Clara Dawes.

Muriel [Jessie Chambers] is the girl I have broken with. She loves me to madness, and demands the soul of me. I have been cruel to her, and wronged her, but I did not know.
Nobody can have the soul of me. My mother has had it, and nobody can have it again. Nobody can come into my very self again, and breathe me like an atmosphere. Don't say I am hasty this time - I know. Louie - whom I wish I could marry the day after the funeral - she would never demand to drink me up and have me. She loves me - but it is a fine, warm, healthy, natural love - not like Jane Eyre, who is Muriel, but like - say Rhoda Fleming or a commoner Anna Karenina. She will never plunge her hands through my blood and feel for my soul, and make me set my teeth and shiver and fight away. Ugh - I have done well - and cruelly - tonight.
I look at my father - he is like, a cinder. It is very terrible, mis-marriage.

I will have comments on this letter tomorrow. Very revealing letter; interesting, isn't it?