Sons and Lovers

[Janine]

Janine, I think Katie and Bainbridge posted over two years ago and are not coming back.

Virgil, I know that!!! I was posting really late last night and trying to find the 'sons and lovers' post where Scher moved our stuff. So I found about 5 'sons and lovers' posts. I must have had blurry eyes (actually I was bug-eyed ) since I though it said 07 for the year date.....I know I know....silly me. So, I did go and write all this brilliant stuff and then I noticed the real date and realised these posts were quite dead! Oh, well it brought them up to the first page anyway. So how did all this other stuff get in here anyway?
Well, I had to laugh at my own stupidity!

Who knows they might come back.....

[Pensive]

Hi all!

I was reading how Miriam showed Paul his diary written in French, but I was unable to understand it as I am not familiar with French. And I really want to understand what it means! Can anyone help me and translate this passage?

"'Ce matin les oiseaux m'ont eveille,'" he read. "'Il faisait
encore un crepuscule. Mais la petite fenetre de ma chambre etait bleme,
et puis, jaune, et tous les oiseaux du bois eclaterent dans un chanson
vif et resonnant. Toute l'aube tressaillit. J'avais reve de vous.
Est-ce que vous voyez aussi l'aube? Les oiseaux m'eveillent presque
tous les matins, et toujours il y a quelque chose de terreur dans
le cri des grives. Il est si clair---'"

[Janine]

Hi Pensive, I would really love to help you but unfortunately I did poorly in French - only had it briefly in high school. I did not retain a thing I learned, which was not much anyway. You know I run into French all the time in Lawrence's writing and I want to know, too, just what he says. I bought a French/English dictionary but I am always too lazy to look up the words when I am reading. I might be able to look up some key words and get the gist of what it says.
There is someone on Lit Net from Paris. Let me think of who that is and maybe he can translate it for us. I don't know if Virgil knows any French but I will ask him, also.
I am curious also to find out what the passage means....hummm....good question...


How far are you in your reading of the book? Just curious. I will discuss it with you when you complete it if you like. I will get back to you on the translation. J

[Pensive]

Hi Pensive, I would really love to help you but unfortunately I did poorly in French - only had it briefly in highschool. I did not retain a thing I learned, which was not much anyway.

You know I run into French all the time in Lawrence's writing and I want to know, too, just what he says. I bought a French/English dictionary but I am always too lazy to look up the words when I am reading. I might be able to look up some key words and get the gist of what it says.
There is someone on Lit Net from Paris. Let me think of who that is and maybe he can translate it for us. I don't know if Virgil knows any French but I will ask him, also.
I am curious also to find out what the passage means....hummm....good question...

Hey Janine! I also thought of online dictionary at first but it is very tedious to search out every word and there are about fifty of them! In addition to this, some words can have more than one meaning which would make the translation even more difficult. And the thing which makes this task impossible is that I don't even know helping verbs (or a little bit of French)! Even if I get to know the meanings, I wouldn't be able to connect them...

Perhaps someone who knows French would stumble across this thread? There is always hope.

How far are you in your reading of the book? Just curious. I will discuss it with you when you complete it if you like. I will get back to you on the translation. J

I have read upto where Paul gets twenty guineas for his painting. Surely I would love to discuss it once I finish.

[Janine]

Hey Janine! I also thought of online dictionary at first but it is very tedious to search out every word and there are about fifty of them! In addition to this, some words can have more than one meaning which would make the translation even more difficult. And the thing which makes this task impossible is that I don't even know helping verbs (or a little bit of French)! Even if I get to know the meanings, I wouldn't be able to connect them...

Perhaps someone who knows French would stumble across this thread? There is always hope.

Pensive, I had the same thoughts - we really do need an interpreter for this one.

[/QUOTE]I have read upto where Paul gets twenty guineas for his painting. Surely I would love to discuss it once I finish. [/QUOTE]

Fantastic! Looking forward to that. After I finish WIL, I will review the "Sons and Lovers" book. I read it two years ago. It will be fun to talk about. I am sure when you mention scenes, it will all come back to me. By the way, I thought the funneral of the oldest son (was the oldest, right?) was so heartbreaking and poignant. I recall it well, bringing the body home and all. How sad he died away from home. It was a tear-jerker.

[Virgil]

Pensy, Janine - I know of a site that translates stuff into many languages. It's a forum of language experts and when I get home I will get on and ask to translate that for you. OK? I don't have the site here at work or I would have done it earlier.

[Pensive]

Fantastic! Looking forward to that. After I finish WIL, I will review the "Sons and Lovers" book. I read it two years ago. It will be fun to talk about. I am sure when you mention scenes, it will all come back to me. By the way, I thought the funneral of the oldest son (was the oldest, right?) was so heartbreaking and poignant. I recall it well, bringing the body home and all. How sad he died away from home. It was a tear-jerker.

Exactly, William was the eldest son in the book. I found it heart-breaking as well, the mother's condition and all that. I remember disliking his girl-friend very much from the very start. I especially remember how William told her if he died, she would forget him in three months, and she did... It was really sad, her attitude with his family, even her attitude with him, which caused his death I think. Her dresses were more important to her than people's emotions... Whenever I think of William's death, I think of her, and feel this anger inside me...

Pensy, Janine - I know of a site that translates stuff into many languages. It's a forum of language experts and when I get home I will get on and ask to translate that for you. OK? I don't have the site here at work or I would have done it earlier.

Virgil, that would be very nice of you!

[Virgil]

Hi all!

I was reading how Miriam showed Paul his diary written in French, but I was unable to understand it as I am not familiar with French. And I really want to understand what it means! Can anyone help me and translate this passage?

I got it translated, Pensy. Here iswhat I was given:

"This morning the birds wakened me," he read. "It was still dawn light. But the little window of my room was pale, and then yellow, and all the birds in the woods burst in a lively and resounding song. The whole dawn shivered. I had been dreaming of you. Do you also see the dawn? The birds wake me nearly every morning, and there is always a sound of terror in the song of the thrushes. It is so clear..."

[Janine]

Virgil, That is great - wow, you will have to give me that translation site URL. I want to use it for other passages I have wondered about. Thanks for getting it translated.

Pensive and Virgil, It is lovely and beautiful, don't you think?
P - yes, I now recall about the girlfriend and how materialistic she was and yes, so true she did forget him after 3 months - that makes it all so much sadder. I could not stand her either. It seemed to me she was very manipulative with William, am I right?
About the quote - is that from Paul's diary or from Miram's diary. I was a little unclear of that. I figured it was from Paul's - right?

[Pensive]

Virgil, That is great - wow, you will have to give me that translation site URL. I want to use it for other passages I have wondered about. Thanks for getting it translated.

Thanks a lot, Virgil and Janine!

Pensive and Virgil, It is lovely and beautiful, don't you think?

It's beautiful yet heart-aching when I look at the later events...

P - yes, I now recall about the girlfriend and how materialistic she was and yes, so true she did forget him after 3 months - that makes it all so much sadder. I could not stand her either. It seemed to me she was very manipulative with William, am I right?

Exactly! But then her own background is given in the book as well. She had lived with her Aunt and was in need of love (according to William). I think this makes her situation a little more understandable. She never had any parents and siblings to love. I don't mean that what she did/the way she behaved was right, but perhaps that was the way she was brought up and I felt pity for her for that as well, for sometime.

About the quote - is that from Paul's diary or from Miram's diary. I was a little unclear of that. I figured it was from Paul's - right?

It's from Miriam's diary, more like an exercise book. She created a diary and wrote the events of her life in it to practice French which Paul was teaching her.

[Janine]

Thanks a lot, Virgil and Janine!

Pensive - glad to be of assistence anytime, but Virgil did the translating. Thanks Virgil!

It's beautiful yet heart-aching when I look at the later events...

Yes, I thought it was so beautiful. Well that is true - knowing the later events does bring a feeling of heart-ache to reading those lines. You know Jessie wrote her own book later in life. I have a desire to read it. I know it might be slanted a bit her being rejected and all but I still think it would be highly interesting. After-all she knew Lawrence intimately and in his early days. I just may invest in that book. I wonder if some of her real diary entries will be in it. She helped edit Lawrence's early work so she and he were quite compatible on a mental level. I think the book would be well written and interesting, don't you?

Exactly! But then her own background is given in the book as well. She had lived with her Aunt and was in need of love (according to William). I think this makes her situation a little more understandable. She never had any parents and siblings to love. I don't mean that what she did/the way she behaved was right, but perhaps that was the way she was brought up and I felt pity for her for that as well, for sometime.

You know your paragraph makes me think how Lawrence did write about real flesh and blood people and no one was all good or all bad; they were all complex and the way they were in personality by their past and their enviromental/family influences. I am sure it is true of this character also and that William truly loved her and wanted to give her what she had lacked in life. It is nice you try to understand her, and not condemn her. I don't recall her that well from my reading but I am sure she was as complex as others characters in the book.

It's from Miriam's diary, more like an exercise book. She created a diary and wrote the events of her life in it to practice French which Paul was teaching her.

That makes more sense. It would seem that Miriam would have written this, not Lawrence. It is romantic about, her dreaming of him. I liked that L was teaching her French and she wrote the diary in that tongue...how interesting a little fact that is. I had not known it.

[Virgil]

You're welcome Pensy and Janine. It was nothing. It is quite pretty and probably sounds even prettier in french.

[Janine]

Pensive, how is the "Lovers" part coming along?

[Pensive]

I think the book would be well written and interesting, don't you?

Well, it seems so by the sound of it.

Pensive, how is the "Lovers" part coming along?

I finally finished the book just yesterday. Quite good, I would say, but very confusing at times. As soon as I finished it, I found myself lost in the sea of thoughts. It's my habit, that many times when I see characters are confused in taking a action I try to think what I would have done on their place and sometimes the answer comes back to me, but this is one of those novels in which I kept on thinking what I should have done and I found no way out.

The characters are so complex that it's difficult to judge or critisize the things done by characters. Paul, I found very complex himself. But interesting. But sometimes he looked self-centered to me, the way he attached Miriam to himself, at first a kind of forced her to do what she did not want to, and then he could not marry her. I wonder if anyone else felt that way? I also didn't like some of his views (in which he seemed very sure) about the attitude of women. Other times, he seemed very unlucky to me. Her mother married to a man with whom she was not very happy and she found happiness only in her children. And then her beloved elder son died at a young age, a very big and grave shock and because he didn't chose the right girl. It's obvious the mother turned all her hopes towards her younger son.

She seemed to be wanting a woman for him who would let him have some space for her as well. The mother along with his son got unlucky again. Her son found himself attracted towards a girl who wanted her all by herself. Though at times I felt pity for Miriam, but other times, she also annoyed me by the way she wanted him all by herself. Prying in his things is another thing, it can be because of curiosity, but all the time she was with him or his family, it seemed to me she never wanted Paul to go towards his mother.

Then he met Clara (already married). Another disappointment for the mother. Paul got unlucky again. From the very start as he met those girls, it seemed to me, just like his mother that they were not both for him. Clara also chose her husband because she felt his love was more permanent... Does anyone of you think it's because she was thinking Paul had dumped Miriam?? Because as far as I remember, she seemed very interested in knowing whether Paul's mother made him break up with Miriam. And I think neither a man nor a woman likes it that the one she/he is going off is in so much influence of his parents that he would break up just because his mother said so. Or perhaps I have got the wrong feeling, it was just because of the Dawes, and because Clara thought he needed her.

He went for Miriam again but they couldn't make-up. Paul was not comfortable with her. At that time, I felt a great pity towards Miriam as well as Paul but more towards Miriam. I mean it must be bad already. Whatever it was, she had desired him immensely and had even offered the sacrifices she could for his sake.

The way Paul behaves when his mother is about to die is also heart-aching. In the end when she says something like this which makes one sad, (I don't remember the exact words) "Annie, don't think I didn't like your house. I just want to go home."

[Janine]

Hi Pensive, just to let you know I read your post and found it very interesting. So you finished all now - Sons and Lovers parts. Glad you did like the book. I will answer your well expressed post with some comments soon and to the best of my abilitly. The novel, along with all of Lawrence's novels and stories presents very complex characters (we were just today discussing this fact on the other thread - "Women in Love".) and it is not always easy or possible to figure these characters out according to their motives or actions in life. In a way this is realistic, in that often the people we know and love, do not always act in ways we feel appropriate or expected. I do agree with you that the book can be very confusing in places and is very thought provoking long after you shut the pages of the novel. It is a shame we are not having a big discussion on this book, but eventually it might get chosen as a book of the month read.
It is a fascinating book and there is much to what you have said about it. I will get back to you very soon and write more comments to your great post. I hope Virgil stops in, too. Janine