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Thread: Translation versus original

  1. #16
    nobody said it was easy barbara0207's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Anastasija;379252]Translation - especially of poetry - is a form of art; rather than pure mechanic translation and conversion from one system to another, it is re-writing the work in another language, trying to perserve at most the original "feeling". Every translation, thus, is a form of interpretation of the work, and can never be the original in its essence.

    I agree fully. And so we needn't talk about translating machine such as Google's. They are often useless. But sometimes, if I want to have some fun, I have the machine translate some lyrics from English into German. How about this one:

    Original: Have yourself a merry little Christmas
    Make the Yuletide gay,
    From now on our troubles will be miles away ...

    German translation:
    Sich haben frohe wenig Weihnachten
    Das Yuletide Homosexuelle bilden ab sofort ...

    Re-translated into English:
    Oneself have merry not much Christmas
    The/that Yuletide form homosexuals from now on ...
    Last edited by barbara0207; 05-19-2007 at 05:05 PM.

  2. #17
    Voice of Chaos & Anarchy
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    As Anastasija pointed out, there are translations that are better than the original. "The Rubiyat of Omar Khayyam" is the first one that comes to mind. It is even regarded very highly by Iranians. One of Umberto Eco's books was rewritten by the author in English, and it is said to be better than the original Italian version. But those are rare exceptions.

    It seems like most translations are done by people who don't have a complete grasp of one of the languages. I understand that much translation is now being done by computer then edited into something that makes some sense.

  3. #18
    Registered User nps_marina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
    Well, one of the best mistakes we know is a mistranslation of the word spinning wheel. In a medieval castle, in the room of a princess...and it was translated as part of the spinning (fishing equipment).
    ROTFL!
    So much for Sleeping Beauty being a chaste, homey and well-bred princess... she was the tomboy who wuokd strap on her overalls and go fishing every rainy morning!!!!
    a noiseless, patient spider...

  4. #19
    nobody said it was easy barbara0207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anastasija View Post
    Translation - ... - is a form of art;
    Let me give another example. It's not to do with sloppiness; the translator meant well, but failed nevertheless.

    As a student, I read "The Catcher in the Rye" by Salinger. I was enthusiastic. Years later I came across the German translation, done by Heinrich Böll, a well-known writer highly acclaimed for his novels and short stories. I liked his work very much. What a surprise when I saw what he had done to Holden Caulfield's narrative. The difficulty in translating the book certainly lies in Holden's language. It is most important to hit the right tone and his way of speaking some kind of youth jargon. Böll translated that language into faultless High German, like a professor's language in a lecture.

    I was stunned. The best of the book, to me, was lost. And I wondered how an author like Böll could not have seen that.

  5. #20
    Registered User Aiculík's Avatar
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    It is not enough to have perfect knowldge of both languages to be a good translator. It also requires to be a good reader and interpreter of a book - one cannot translate a book if he didn't understand the meaning or didn't catch the atmosphere. And that is what is so difficult about it. The translator must decode the book and then code it again in another language. And while there are many theories on translation, and many people who know languages perfectly try to do it - really good translators are rare.

    Of course, as every interpretation of the book is subjective, there will never be a translation of any book that will be liked by everyone. And reading average translation is still better than not being able to read the book at all.

    I remember when I got my first book for translation - from Croatian to Slovak, about 180 pages about Medjugorje, it contained not only teological passages, but also passages on moral and witnesses's evidence... so it really wasn't easy to translate. The people who ordered it were very surprised when I told them that I'll need about 6 weeks to translate it. As they said "what's so difficult about it, you know both languages, all you have to do is to sit down and write, so why should it take more than ten days?"

    And that is very common opinion. Many people think that if they're "upper intermediate" or "advanced" in some language, they are also great translators. I recently made a reserach paper on the low quality of translations from English - not just literary works, but also advertisements, news, etc. I had few weeks of good laughter. It's unbelivable what constructions can people produce during "translation".

  6. #21
    Wandering Child Annamariah's Avatar
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    I read most of the books in Finnish, because the originals are usually quite difficult to get (If I don't want to buy the book, of course. In libraries there are quite limited selection of books in English.) Best books I like to read in both languages. I think that as long as the translation is not really bad, the reader will get something from it that the original doesn't give (unless the person in question is completely bilingual). I guess it's "the magic of the mother tongue" or something like that
    Little Lotte thought of everything and nothing. Her hair was golden as the sun's rays and her soul as clear and blue as her eyes.
    Gaston Leroux - The Phantom of the Opera

  7. #22
    Perhaps an island.... Moira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiculík View Post
    It is not enough to have perfect knowldge of both languages to be a good translator. It also requires to be a good reader and interpreter of a book - one cannot translate a book if he didn't understand the meaning or didn't catch the atmosphere. And that is what is so difficult about it. The translator must decode the book and then code it again in another language. And while there are many theories on translation, and many people who know languages perfectly try to do it - really good translators are rare.

    Of course, as every interpretation of the book is subjective, there will never be a translation of any book that will be liked by everyone. And reading average translation is still better than not being able to read the book at all.

    I remember when I got my first book for translation - from Croatian to Slovak, about 180 pages about Medjugorje, it contained not only teological passages, but also passages on moral and witnesses's evidence... so it really wasn't easy to translate. The people who ordered it were very surprised when I told them that I'll need about 6 weeks to translate it. As they said "what's so difficult about it, you know both languages, all you have to do is to sit down and write, so why should it take more than ten days?"

    And that is very common opinion. Many people think that if they're "upper intermediate" or "advanced" in some language, they are also great translators. I recently made a reserach paper on the low quality of translations from English - not just literary works, but also advertisements, news, etc. I had few weeks of good laughter. It's unbelivable what constructions can people produce during "translation".
    That's a very good point.
    And i hate reading poetry translations, i think they are pretty useless because you can never keep much of the original meaning.

  8. #23
    nobody said it was easy barbara0207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiculík View Post
    And that is very common opinion. Many people think that if they're "upper intermediate" or "advanced" in some language, they are also great translators. I recently made a reserach paper on the low quality of translations from English - not just literary works, but also advertisements, news, etc. I had few weeks of good laughter. It's unbelivable what constructions can people produce during "translation".
    I believe you. Could you perhaps come up with a few examples so we can have a good laugh, too, or is it too difficult to render them in English?

  9. #24
    In my opinion translation from language to language it can be fine if the translator is deep-rotted in both languages. But the problem is if the translator deep-rooted in English and Arabic language for example and he tried to translate book from Russian to Arabic and he used English language as intermediary language. What you think it will be?
    I think it will be disconnected meaning and will lose the beauty of the text.

    That what I faced in my Arabic world we don’t have excellent translator from uncommon languages and thy tried to use English or French language as intermediary language.

  10. #25
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    Well some Iranians might admire Fitzgerald's version of Khayyam but it is very much 'after' the original. I admire it as English poetry but from the comments of some Persian/Iranian scholars it's clear that Fitzgerald was pretty cavalier in being true to the original. But that is the Scylla and Charybdis of all translation of poetry. Do you aim for the literal or do you give a representation? Do you try to retain the rhythms and sounds or go mainly for the key ideas? It's not easy and it's not a clear cut choice. Prose has its own difficulties but poetry much more so.

  11. #26
    nobody said it was easy barbara0207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arabian dream View Post
    That what I faced in my Arabic world we don’t have excellent translator from uncommon languages and thy tried to use English or French language as intermediary language.
    My heartfelt sympathy. That reminds me of the game "Chinese Whispers". A whispers something into B's ear, who whispers it into C's ear and so on. By the time the expression reaches the last person it has often changed completely. So I can understand how you feel about such translations.

  12. #27
    nobody said it was easy barbara0207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ennison View Post
    Well some Iranians might admire Fitzgerald's version of Khayyam but it is very much 'after' the original. I admire it as English poetry but from the comments of some Persian/Iranian scholars it's clear that Fitzgerald was pretty cavalier in being true to the original. But that is the Scylla and Charybdis of all translation of poetry. Do you aim for the literal or do you give a representation? Do you try to retain the rhythms and sounds or go mainly for the key ideas? It's not easy and it's not a clear cut choice. Prose has its own difficulties but poetry much more so.
    Yes, especially if there is a strict form such as the sonnet. That is clearly a challenge for every translator. It's often poets who try their hands at poems like that. Recently I read the translations of a Shakespeare sonnet done by six different poets. Each poet added his own view and interpretation of the sonnet. That was very interesting to read.

  13. #28
    Registered User Aiculík's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbara0207 View Post
    I believe you. Could you perhaps come up with a few examples so we can have a good laugh, too, or is it too difficult to render them in English?
    It is difficult to translate it back into English... but I remember one book (Qeeen of Sheba, I forgot the author). There was a passage where one character felt fear arising in her and she couldn't breathe. In translation, however, she felt fear climbing up her inestines trying to strangle her.

  14. #29
    Registered User Aiculík's Avatar
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    I found this article on the net:

    Why does someone translate? What possesses them? I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case it's firstly to scrape together a living in letters, and secondly a duty to the literature and the language (German). Once there, I also found I wanted to make a difference. I want it to matter that a book has had my time and my English expended on it, and not someone else's. I want both the choice of book, and the manner of the translation, to be expressive of me. Perhaps this is already illegitimate, I quite see that. Perhaps this is some of the executive vanity of authorship meddling with and muddying the dull pitch of the translator. But I'm not deluded. I may set down every word of my Koeppens and Roths (proper names excepted), but I don't think I'm them.

    The trouble, it seems to me, is that translation is perceived as a function, not an agency. It's not fully personalised and accredited work. No one sees it. You're an ambulance driver, not a surgeon. If not me, then someone else. If not someone else, then me. When people buy a book, they want to read the author, not a centaur or a Zygos brothers figure - the work, and not the product of something I once described as "the strange bi-authorship of translation". If the book was written in a different language, then there will, perforce, have to have been a translator involved in it, but the reader prefers to remain unaware of that. It may even be disagreeable to be informed or reminded of the fact. Even otherwise bookish people seem never to know who translated the book they are reading. Efforts by publishers to promote something as a "new translation", I am convinced, do as much harm as good. There's something as unnatural and infrequent about those as there is about a comet; people quite naturally take fright.

    In the English-speaking world (ha!), there is very little empathy with translators. Most readers don't have any experience of translating, or indeed of another language at a serious level. Most authors and reviewers don't either. Among poets, off the top of my head I can only think of a handful who translate: Muldoon, Heaney, George Szirtes, and Don Paterson, with his Machado, and a Rilke forthcoming. Among novelists only Tim Parks (recently retired from the fray), and Julian Barnes with his Daudet. There are one or two more in the US. (You do get them in the theatre, though, where it sometimes seems that every English and Irish playwright has had a go at Chekhov, but the ground rules there are different; they work from literal versions, and it's their dramaturgical expertise and ear for speech that are brought to bear.) Any European country, I think, would have dozens of equivalent figures who had offered translations. Pavese translated; Proust translated; Bruno Schulz translated. It's an ordinary aspect of literary work. Eco refers to an Einaudi series of books translated by Italian authors. Primo Levi translated The Trial; Eco himself did De Nerval's Sylvie. A series like that would barely get off the ground in the UK.

    The background of such ignorance and lack of experience has left an odd nimbus or whiff around translation. People don't know how to talk about it, and so they don't like to talk about it. Translation is perceived either in terms of clarity and faithfulness (Eco does it too), or in terms of mistakes, which is banal, because everyone makes mistakes. Again, a function, rather than an agency. Everything beyond that is shrouded in an unfortunate mystique. But really, there is no mystery. If you have a good time with a book, praise the author; if you have a good time with a paragraph, praise the translator (as well). That would be my rule of thumb.
    (An excerpt from Speaking in Tongues by Michael Hofman, on Mouse or Rat? Eco's essay on translation)

  15. #30
    nobody said it was easy barbara0207's Avatar
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    Thank you very much for the article, Aiculík. I have never thought about translations that way. Very interesting, especially the remark that "people do not know how to talk about it".

    I do, however, not quite agree that complaining about mistakes is just "banal". It is true that everyone makes mistakes, but that is not the point I tried to make above. If a translation is done carefully, a few mistakes can certainly be forgiven. What vexes me are translations done in a hurry without very much thought given to tone, atmosphere and meaning of the original.

    PS: Nice example you gave us.

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