May / Irving Reading: 'A Prayer For Owen Meany'

[Janine]

I have some questions. I have just gotten past the Christmas pagent and I was wondering why this luminous and insightful little being - Owen - wise beyond his years - suddenly drives away his parents from the church? He does this in front of the whole congregation and the parents let him, furthermore some parishiers think it part of the play and brilliant - I don't quite get that, unless to make a joke of it. It all did not seem believable to me. Then why do the parents stick around, after public humilation by their only son, to drive him home? He could easily have gotten rides from anyone.

I am also confused about the sudden switch back to the present, when John has the discussion with the other church member, who keeps bringing up elections. It seems this embodies the issues that Virgil found offensive about John's critisism of Regan, arms testing, etc. Now, I do see where the man offsets John's strong opinions on the subject. I have always gotten the impression that Irving shows both sides of the coin, to give a fair account of important issues. Am I correct in asuming this and in reference to this passage? Not sure if this makes any sense, but I am trying feebly to explain this. Hope you get the idea.

[Virgil]

I have some questions. I have just gotten past the Christmas pagent and I was wondering why this luminous and insightful little being - Owen - wise beyond his years - suddenly drives away his parents from the church? He does this in front of the whole congregation and the parents let him, furthermore some parishiers think it part of the play and brilliant - I don't quite get that, unless to make a joke of it. It all did not seem believable to me. Then why do the parents stick around, after public humilation by their only son, to drive him home? He could easily have gotten rides from anyone.

I am also confused about the sudden switch back to the present, when John has the discussion with the other church member, who keeps bringing up elections. It seems this embodies the issues that Virgil found offensive about John's critisism of Regan, arms testing, etc. Now, I do see where the man offsets John's strong opinions on the subject. I have always gotten the impression that Irving shows both sides of the coin, to give a fair account of important issues. Am I correct in asuming this and in reference to this passage? Not sure if this makes any sense, but I am trying feebly to explain this. Hope you get the idea.

Actually Janine, I think I am seeing a pattern that would answer both your paragraphs. One theme I am seeing is that as the boys are growing up, they are increasingly rebelling against authority. Owen breaks from his parents, from traditional religious doctrine, and other adults. That is why the Catholic church, a very authoritative and traditional institution, is slighted; the congregationalists are possibly among the least authoritative. The adult Johnny, the one in 1987 time, has grown to violently resent the institution that is above us all, our government. I see this as paralleling the transition from the idyllic 1950's into the rebellious 1960s and beyond. This is a loss of innocence, linked to the death of the mother, by a very American event, baseball. I haven't been able to formulate exactly what Irving is alluding to, but I'm only half way through.

And then there is the sex motif that also parallels this transition. The boys are on the verge of puberty. This loss of innocence tied with the loss of idyllic childhood, reinforced with hormonal changes that must be going on. And so we get erections, experiments with condums, and semi-innocent sexual contact.

How this all ties together I don't know yet.

[Janine]

Virgil, thanks for that explanation - that is one way of looking at all of this. You are right there is a progression of rebellion to authority and their growing up. I always thought the one theme that Irving was particularly stressing was the idea of fate - a set fate - or predestination. It seems this is what Owen strongly believes in and impresses Johnny with continually. "There are not coincidences" for Owen. It just seemed that that whole rejection of the parents in public was extreme to me and somewhat out of character for Owen but then Johnny did say he was unpredictable. odd contrast a figure who is unpredictable believing in predictable, or the idea of predestination. Just something to think about.

[Virgil]

Virgil, thanks for that explanation - that is one way of looking at all of this. You are right there is a progression of rebellion to authority and their growing up. I always thought the one theme that Irving was particularly stressing what the idea of fate - a set fate - or predestination. It seems this is what Owen strongly believes in and impresses Johnny with continually. "There are not coincidences" for Owen. It just seemed that that whole rejection of the parents in public was extreme to me and somewhat out of character for Owen but then Johnny did say he was unpredictable. odd contrast a figure who is unpredictable believing in predictable, or the idea of predestination. Just something to think about.

Oh yes, fate versus free will is in there too. That also ties in with the religious themes. How, I don't know yet. I should probably look up how each of those religious denominations regards fate and free will. I know Roman Catholicism believes in free will.

[Janine]

Oh yes, fate versus free will is in there too. That also ties in with the religious themes. How, I don't know yet. I should probably look up how each of those religious denominations regards fate and free will. I know Roman Catholicism believes in free will.

Virgil, that would be interesting to know if you can indeed look them up. It seems significant to Irving - the divisions of faith in the various churches he mentions. It must be important in someway also to the outcome of the book.

[bouquin]

I have read it several times, and I still don't . And I like exactly that, because I while reading feel as if I was Irving's collaborator in the process of producing a novel. He does not confront me with a finite number of clear-cut issues to think about, but I am free to choose them myself while being presented with Owen and Johnny and their lives. This sounds a little, well, esoteric , but I mean to say that I do like to read of loosly constructed and multi-layered ideas from time to time, because I feel it fits these very days.


I do not think Irving is trying to make any political point at all - Johnny is (or Owen, or both of them, according to which passage you are referring to). And surely criticising Ronald Reagan (especially when done by a fictional character) does not necessarily have to equate with an appeal to adhere to communism.
I remember that I at first found the book's shifts into political discussion disturbing as well. Have you already got to the point where it becomes clear why Johnny writes from/in Canada at all ? This solution (and also the very end of the book) at least for me shed some new light on the political talk before.


Let me know what you think of it once you have read the whole of it, please .

Who knows, perhaps John Wheelwright's rantings and ravings about politics could very well be the expression of Irving's own personal point of view. Just like Thomas Hardy (cited in Owen Meany) - whose own writings reflected his outlook and philosophy in life.

[Virgil]

Who knows, perhaps John Wheelwright's rantings and ravings about politics could very well be the expression of Irving's own personal point of view. Just like Thomas Hardy (cited in Owen Meany) - whose own writings reflected his outlook and philosophy in life.

Hardy spoke about ideas and values. I don't recall Hardy ever speaking about a prime minister or a politician or even political events. Of course I haven't read all of Hardy.

And as to the anti-Catholicism, there better be a point to it, because it definitely has crossed over into pure bigotry.

[bouquin]

Well, I'm at the half way point now, and I do detect several themes which I'll talk about once I'm further along. I want to make sure. There definitely are themes. You can't have a work of art without themes.


Now that I'm further along, I can see the distinction between johnny as narrator and Irving. However I still have no idea why the politics. Yes Johnny is a draft dodger. Other thing I find a little disturbing is the anti-Catholic references. While I'm beginning to understand the religiuos theme, I'm not sure why he chooses such a prejudiced attitude (and I assume it's the characters and not the author).


There are moments I enjoy it and there are moments i find boring. Why does Irving spend over 50 pages on the Christmas pagent and A Christmas Carol play? It got so tedious.

What I sometimes found boring and tedious were John's diatribes on politics and his repetitive exposé and opinions of the reading requirements at the Bishop Strachan School where he taught. But the worst, I think - the most tiresome part of all was having to read over and over again about Hester's vomiting!

Hardy spoke about ideas and values. I don't recall Hardy ever speaking about a prime minister or a politician or even political events. Of course I haven't read all of Hardy.

And as to the anti-Catholicism, there better be a point to it, because it definitely has crossed over into pure bigotry.

My comment on post#36 was actually a response to Schokokeks who said, "I do not think Irving is trying to make any political point at all - Johnny is ..."

I am more inclined to suppose that Irving could very well be expressing his own political opinions through his creation, the character John Wheelwright. Isn't that often the case (although not all, of course) among writers and their works? That they express their heartfelt opinions, air out their own anguish, doubts and indignation; tell their own life story through their writings? Just like Thomas Hardy, for example. What happens to the characters in Hardy's stories, the thoughts they express are most often/most likely a direct reflection of Hardy's own "ideas and values" (not necessarily political) - of what Hardy was himself.

I hope I have come across more clearly this time.

[Idril]

And as to the anti-Catholicism, there better be a point to it, because it definitely has crossed over into pure bigotry.

The anti-Catholicism is Owen's and yes, it has a point or at least it's explained. And if it makes you feel any better, it does, I think, show that it was misguided and came from ignorance and superstition. And eventually Owen makes a sort of peace with it, sort of...kind of... And the reason for the anti-Catholicism ties into Owen's reaction to his parents presence at the Christmas pageant.

The political rants are there as evidence of how disillusioned John becomes with his government because of what will eventually happen and at some point in the novel. I don't know where all you guys are but eventually we get the definite impression that other people view his rants and intense hatred of his former country's government as being not entirely healthy.

[bouquin]

I have some questions. I have just gotten past the Christmas pagent and I was wondering why this luminous and insightful little being - Owen - wise beyond his years - suddenly drives away his parents from the church? He does this in front of the whole congregation and the parents let him, furthermore some parishiers think it part of the play and brilliant - I don't quite get that, unless to make a joke of it. It all did not seem believable to me. Then why do the parents stick around, after public humilation by their only son, to drive him home? He could easily have gotten rides from anyone.

I am also confused about the sudden switch back to the present, when John has the discussion with the other church member, who keeps bringing up elections. It seems this embodies the issues that Virgil found offensive about John's critisism of Regan, arms testing, etc. Now, I do see where the man offsets John's strong opinions on the subject. I have always gotten the impression that Irving shows both sides of the coin, to give a fair account of important issues. Am I correct in asuming this and in reference to this passage? Not sure if this makes any sense, but I am trying feebly to explain this. Hope you get the idea.

I have finished reading the book and yet I still can't figure out the reason for Owen's outburst against his parents at the Christmas pageant. I suspect it had to do with the revelation that they had made to him regarding the circumstances of his birth. Which brings me to another question ... Did Owen believe what his parents told him?

[Idril]

I have finished reading the book and yet I still can't figure out the reason for Owen's outburst against his parents at the Christmas pageant. I suspect it had to do with the revelation that they had made to him regarding the circumstances of his birth. Which brings me to another question ... Did Owen believe what his parents told him?

As far as whether or not Owen believed his parents, yes, I do think he believed them but it's hard to talk about it fully without spoilers as is what the connection is between that revelation and his outburst. Like you, I know a connection is there but my theories as to what it is are hazy at best. It will be interesting to see what other people have to say about it when they get to the end.

[bouquin]

He's a big Dickens fan. Half of Trying to Save Piggy Sneed is Dickens appreciation, from what I remember. And the book of choice to be specifically honored in The Cider House Rules is none other than David Copperfield. It is read throughout that book and the narrator gives you many comparisons himself. Irving's books are not all in that extreme style, but I do remember Owen Meany being a particularly slow read for me (I can't read Dickens. Just can't.)



For those of you that can't get enough of the character, you can always also check out Günter Grass's The Tin Drum, as Owen Meany seems to be at least part homage to the very similar character Oskar Matzerath.

This is my 3rd Irving book; reading him is always slow-paced for me, too. The 2 others that I've read were The World According to Garp and A Son of the Circus; I liked them a lot better than I did Owen Meany.

As far as whether or not Owen believed his parents, yes, I do think he believed them but it's hard to talk about it fully without spoilers as is what the connection is between that revelation and his outburst. Like you, I know a connection is there but my theories as to what it is are hazy at best. It will be interesting to see what other people have to say about it when they get to the end.

I'd be happy to discuss this part of the story as soon as everyone is done reading.

[Janine]

I'd be happy to discuss this part of the story as soon as everyone is done reading.

Thanks, since I am only on about Pg 200 and need to get reading it faster to finish up. I have gotten distracted lately from reading. I don't want to know the ending yet, nor answers to some of the important questions in the book. No spoilers please - everyone - thanks...J

[Virgil]

I have to say that the high school years chapter is boring. Owen as The Voice in the school paper gets so predictable. The more this book goes along, the less charming it becomes. What kept my interest, despite the loose writing, was the charm of the characters. Well, the writing is the same, but the characters are not as charming.

[bouquin]

Actually Janine, I think I am seeing a pattern that would answer both your paragraphs. One theme I am seeing is that as the boys are growing up, they are increasingly rebelling against authority. Owen breaks from his parents, from traditional religious doctrine, and other adults. That is why the Catholic church, a very authoritative and traditional institution, is slighted; the congregationalists are possibly among the least authoritative. The adult Johnny, the one in 1987 time, has grown to violently resent the institution that is above us all, our government. I see this as paralleling the transition from the idyllic 1950's into the rebellious 1960s and beyond. This is a loss of innocence, linked to the death of the mother, by a very American event, baseball. I haven't been able to formulate exactly what Irving is alluding to, but I'm only half way through.

And then there is the sex motif that also parallels this transition. The boys are on the verge of puberty. This loss of innocence tied with the loss of idyllic childhood, reinforced with hormonal changes that must be going on. And so we get erections, experiments with condums, and semi-innocent sexual contact.

How this all ties together I don't know yet.

The way I understand it, Owen's criticism of the Catholic Church started before he got to that usual age where kids question and/or defy authority. He had been influenced by his father whose decision it was to break away from the Catholic Church and transfer his family (Owen especially) to the Episcopals. Owen must have witnessed his parents suffer and agonize because of lack of moral sustenance from the priests and other Catholic Church leaders that they consulted regarding their problem. He might also have seen and heard his mother and father being ridiculed. This could have substantially affected him, thus his negative attitude toward the Catholic Church.