I agreeOriginally Posted by HeatherBug
I agree
And in the end
it's not the years
in your life that
count. It's the life
in your years.
Rina
Hamlet's mirror shows us our true selves. It shows us the things about ourselves we don't want to see, the ugly things. For example, it showed Polonius what a fool he was, Gertrude as a traitor, and Claudius as a murderer. The mirror is the truth, what we try to ignore.Shakespeare's Hamlet appears to reach a climax in Act III, scene iv as Hamlet verbally assaults his mother, releasing a torrent of long suppressed resentment over her betrayal of King Hamlet.
Queen: Have you forgot me?
Hamlet: No, by the rood, not so.
You are the Queen, your husband's brother's wife,
And (would it were not so) you are my mother. (3.4.15-18)
Shortly after this exchange, the Queen recognizes that her son has not come to her chamber to be disciplined, but instead intends to show her how distorted her perception has become. Gertrude then seeks to escape the chamber, but she cannot avoid looking at what she has become.
Hamlet: Come, Come, and sit you down; you shall not
budge.
You go not until I set you up a glass
Where you may see the inmost part of you. (3.4.19-21)
The mirror Hamlet forces his mother to examine reveals, "such black and grained spots as will not leave their tinct" (3.4.92-93). Why does Hamlet's mirror have so much power over his mother? When Gertrude gazes into this mirror, what exactly does she see?
Apparently, Gertrude, prior to Hamlet's visitation, was unable or unwilling to see the enormity of her sin-- a loyal husband dishonorably given an abbreviated period of mourning, a ous brother-in-law exchanged for the "goodly king", a son completely cut off, abandoned by his mother in a time of need.
In Harold C. Goddard's book The Meaning of Shakespeare offers up an interpretation of what Gertrude may have seen.
"And the sin which he chastizes in his mother is nothing but his own in reverse. Anger and (plus cruelty in which they both usually culminate) are the two nt passions in man, one generically masculine, the other feminine" (372).
My question for this discussion thread is this: what did Gertrude see in this glass? Perhaps most importantly, what do we, as readers, see when Hamlet holds up this mirror to us-- demanding that we examine closely who we truly are and what we intend to do with this self-knowledge?
Couldn't the mirror also be Shown by Ophelia's Flowers?Shakespeare's Hamlet appears to reach a climax in Act III, scene iv as Hamlet verbally assaults his mother, releasing a torrent of long suppressed resentment over her betrayal of King Hamlet.
Queen: Have you forgot me?
Hamlet: No, by the rood, not so.
You are the Queen, your husband's brother's wife,
And (would it were not so) you are my mother. (3.4.15-18)
Shortly after this exchange, the Queen recognizes that her son has not come to her chamber to be disciplined, but instead intends to show her how distorted her perception has become. Gertrude then seeks to escape the chamber, but she cannot avoid looking at what she has become.
Hamlet: Come, Come, and sit you down; you shall not
budge.
You go not until I set you up a glass
Where you may see the inmost part of you. (3.4.19-21)
The mirror Hamlet forces his mother to examine reveals, "such black and grained spots as will not leave their tinct" (3.4.92-93). Why does Hamlet's mirror have so much power over his mother? When Gertrude gazes into this mirror, what exactly does she see?
Apparently, Gertrude, prior to Hamlet's visitation, was unable or unwilling to see the enormity of her sin-- a loyal husband dishonorably given an abbreviated period of mourning, a ous brother-in-law exchanged for the "goodly king", a son completely cut off, abandoned by his mother in a time of need.
In Harold C. Goddard's book The Meaning of Shakespeare offers up an interpretation of what Gertrude may have seen.
"And the sin which he chastizes in his mother is nothing but his own in reverse. Anger and (plus cruelty in which they both usually culminate) are the two nt passions in man, one generically masculine, the other feminine" (372).
My question for this discussion thread is this: what did Gertrude see in this glass? Perhaps most importantly, what do we, as readers, see when Hamlet holds up this mirror to us-- demanding that we examine closely who we truly are and what we intend to do with this self-knowledge?
And in the end
it's not the years
in your life that
count. It's the life
in your years.
Rina
I think that the mirror could be our subconcious. It's like we know what we look like on the inside, but we don't want to admit it. The mirror is just a tool in showing ourselves what we already know, we just haven't accepted.
*~Heather~*
How on earth could you attack a teacher and a class that you have never attended? Did you have the unfortunate experience (as a student) of having a teacher annoy you with ideas and discussion about some concept upon which you had already made up your mind? This must have been similar to Hamlet's father's experience of hell following his murder. "O horrible, O horrible, most horrible!" (1.5.81)
Ameleth, you have single-handly put scholars around the world on the unemployment rolls. You have, in a single post, killed all debate over the meaning of Hamlet. "The play is simply a play." End of debate. Period.
Interesting idea, but totally wrong. Maybe the book notes (Cliffs, perhaps, or Pink Monkey Notes?) version of Hamlet you were reading failed to cover the complex issues, language, elements built into the play. Why is it that after over 400 years scholars continue to write essays and books of criticism over this play? Harold Bloom, the critic I mentioned in my last post, has devoted his entire professional life in studying the works to Shakespeare. According to Ameleth, the learned Bloom is merely a leech. I suppose this award winning leech should be informed that he has wasted his life seeking meaning where none existed. Ameleth says all of this criticism and study is merely a bunch of mumbo-jumbo-- ignorant people projecting their own thoughts onto something as simple as a play. How amusing!
Please take a sentence, perhaps two even, to illuminate the more complex ideas of Kant and Hume. Given your ability to state the meaning of Hamlet so succinctly, I suspect it would take a broken paragraph, filled will a few broken, error-filled sentences to encapsulate their philosophical beliefs. Anything beyond what you have to say about these men's ideas, no doubt, be total clap-trap, rubbish, foolish, and misleading. We will depend on your wisdom, Ameleth, to tell us what we need to know.
If this works out well, perhaps you could cover the whole of human knowledge in literature and philosophy. It might take one or two posts for you to do this, but I know that I will be a better person for having absorbed your erudite thoughts on the human condition. You should have made your screen name "Pangloss" (see Candide, another easy read from a silly Frenchman named Voltaire).
Universities around the world are no doubt eliminating all Shakespeare classes from their curriculum due to its lack of complexity. As Ameleth states so eloquently, "They don't even really know the play dialogue." All because Ameleth says so.
Last edited by Nirome; 04-23-2007 at 10:48 AM.
“Writing is like prostitution. First you do it for love, and then for a few close friends, and then for money.”
Moliere
Well put Nirome!
I can resist everything except temptation....
Dont you claim on your website that "Hamlet is a highly complex play - possibly the most complex writing in all of literature - and a modern English translation is not enough to convey the full meaning of it." Hmmmm???
I thought I was the man with the master plan but as it turns out, tobogganing is much harder than training a dog with no ears, eyes, or legs.
I like this take on the mirror. I believe that while the "mirror" can be the actual mirror Hamlet shoved, can it also be Hamlet showing Gertude her inner self. Does anyone else find it strange, that the only thing we can never see clearly is ourselves (both figurativly and literally). In order to see ourselves we need an outside source and often the image is disorted (ei. mirrors,pictures) We can never see our true self. Maybe we need others to give a true image of ourselves, and that is what Hamlet does to Gertrude with his "mirror".
Hamlet's use of a mirror is ironic in that the play is replete with references to "play" "show" and "seems." Again and again the play revolves around the inability to judge something by appearances - Hamlet discourses with his mother over her interpretation of his appearance and how "these things indeed seem,/ for they are actions that a man might play:/ But I have that within me which passes show;/ These but the trappings and the suits of woe" (1.2). Hamlet uses the play (a false story) to intuit Claudius' guilt; Polonious himself admits - while preparing his daughter to "chance" upon Hamlet that "with devotion's visage and pious action we do suger o'er the devil himself." In the world of Hamlet, a mirror could hardly be trusted.
It is Hamlet's words - not the mirror - that prompt Gertrude to protest "Thou turn'st mine eyes into my very soul." In Hamlet, it is language that reveals the truth - not mirrors. Kenneth Branaugh emphasized this idea nicely in his version of Hamlet by utilizing a throne-room full of mirrors for the "To Be" soliloquy.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
I like your view on Hamlet a lot. I agree completely with you about Hamlet's conversation with his mother.
Compromise
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.
Thank you kindly.
I love the play. It is magnificent.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
Ashley and others covered fairly well the symbolism of Hamlet showing his mother a "mirror" - and she is clearly deeply moved by the end of the scene.
The most common misconception today about Gertrude, though, is that she's wanton, or as one comment wrote, "a b---"
We do not feel in our times that back then, when a king died, even if it were his brother who took the throne, it was common for the old Queen and her family to be executed, or at a minimum, banished. But usually executed. There was a lot at stake for Gertrude. Men survived by brute strength or political acumen or military might. Women tended to survive by giving themselves to the most powerful suitor. The psychology of Hamlet, his adolescent rantings, paint an introspection of human psychology far advanced for its time. As a "stage play" (as one person wrote), none of that would have been covered or revealed, for the writer - writing for an of his own time - would have skipped all reference to "unreasonable passions so out of keeping with the brutish reality" ... Hamlet goes so much farther, forcing Gertrude to a place of confession and absolution, or humility and remorse, while Hamlet himself is actually most chilidish, recalcitrant, and just plain wrong. It's his honesty of emotion that illicits honesty from his mother.
Even as he rants, raves, sees a Ghost, and stabs Polonius to death, to keep the action moving. Such enormity of action and philosophy has rarely been married, before or after.
These are my opinions and thoughts at least, hopefully of some use.
David Blair
A Brief Defense of Mirrors
Hamlet's mirror and his words are one in the same. When Hamlet says that he will hold up a "glass" where his mother may see the "innermost part" of herself, he is using a synecdoche that uses the glass or mirror to represent simultaneously the tangible and abstract together in a brilliant flash of verbal economy (3.4.21-22). Both mirror and word reveal the wickedness hidden deep under the various "players" within the play itself. Ironically, just as a mirror has the power to reveal our flaws, it also gives us the power to hide them more deeply under whatever mask we choose.
Why do we need mirrors, Red? We do not use them to view others; we use them for ourselves. Mirrors are real, but they are also abstractions.
While the stock theme in Hamlet is, as you have pointed out, "appearance and reality," your analysis totally discounts the mirror as a symbol of the human soul. What, after all, constitutes our development of self, of identity? Who is the person I call myself?
Can I wear a mask, put on a multitude of disguises (create an avatar), play at emotion, create a character, a complete counterfeit of myself? Of course! But when I gaze into the mirror, whether I wear the disguise or not, what is it that looks back at me? The mirror, whether glazed over with fog, cracked, or distorted, will faithfully render an image that may fool others, but will never fool me (unless I am truly mad).
I wonder what Ophelia saw as she leaned out over the water shortly before her suicidal swim. What reflection swam into her vision before the "envious sliver broke" and cast her into the "weeping brook" (4.7.175-178)? Perhaps her impulse to merge with whatever image she beheld was impossible to resist.
“Writing is like prostitution. First you do it for love, and then for a few close friends, and then for money.”
Moliere
I do indeed wonder what Ophelia saw when she gazed deep into her own reflection. Perhaps it was something so terrible that it made her fear life, or maybe it was something more beautiful than we can imagine that made this life seem pointless. Unfortunately we will never know what she saw that made her take the final plunge.I wonder what Ophelia saw as she leaned out over the water shortly before her suicidal swim. What reflection swam into her vision before the "envious sliver broke" and cast her into the "weeping brook" (4.7.175-178)? Perhaps her impulse to merge with whatever image she beheld was impossible to resist.
I am Agarwaen, son of Umarth.
-Turambar
Why do we need mirrors, Red? We do not use them to view others; we use them for ourselves. Mirrors are real, but they are also abstractions.
While the stock theme in Hamlet is, as you have pointed out, "appearance and reality," your analysis totally discounts the mirror as a symbol of the human soul. What, after all, constitutes our development of self, of identity? Who is the person I call myself?
Can I wear a mask, put on a multitude of disguises (create an avatar), play at emotion, create a character, a complete counterfeit of myself? Of course! But when I gaze into the mirror, whether I wear the disguise or not, what is it that looks back at me? The mirror, whether glazed over with fog, cracked, or distorted, will faithfully render an image that may fool others, but will never fool me (unless I am truly mad).
Well said.
1) I don't discount the mirror so much as point to another "layer" of meaning the play presents - that the outside of someone cannot be totally trusted to reflect (pun intended) the inner person (Duncan reinforces this idea in 1.4 of Macbeth: "There's no art to find the mind's construction in the face"). Your interpretation is equally valid.
2) I think that a mirror's reflection must be "filtered" through the consciousness that observes it; if that consciousness has certain fallacious views about the object in the mirror, then the mirror can - essentially - lie. You speak as if our vision is a penetrating "truth-sifter"; I think the plays of Shakespeare (as well as the Bible and most literature) points out that what we see can rarely be trusted.
Your observations are - as always - insightful and well-articulated.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
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