Atheists....

[Redzeppelin]

I say 'pious' only because I'm quoting.

Right - I did catch that - was that from Plato? I think one of the dialogues of Socrates begins with a discussion on piety. It seemed familiar. So I could have been more accurate by saying I take issue with the speaker's use of "pious."

Ok, fair enough, but saying that God's character is 'good' implies some outside standard of comparison, no?

No - God's character is what-it-is; He tells us that all that is good is a reflection of Him - that "goodness" is defined by its approximation to the character of God. We call "good" good because of its closeness to the character of God. Most people (I would asume) would call the characteristics of God - love, compassion, justice, mercy, kindness, longsuffering, patient, loyal, forgiving, etc - "good" things.

[cuppajoe_9]

Right - I did catch that - was that from Plato? I think one of the dialogues of Socrates begins with a discussion on piety. It seemed familiar. So I could have been more accurate by saying I take issue with the speaker's use of "pious."

It's Plato, specifically the Euthyphro Problem. It showed up on my ethics final a few days ago. In context, 'pious' means the same as 'virtuous' or 'morally correct'. I may be reading from a poor translation.

No - God's character is what-it-is; He tells us that all that is good is a reflection of Him - that "goodness" is defined by its approximation to the character of God.

But God is self-created according to the Christian conception of him, no? So he must have, at some point, molded his own character. Did he choose the character traits that you mention arbitrarily, or did he recognize them as good in and of themselves, and decide to endow himself with them on that basis?

[Redzeppelin]

It's Plato, specifically the Euthyphro Problem. It showed up on my ethics final a few days ago. In context, 'pious' means the same as 'virtuous' or 'morally correct'. I may be reading from a poor translation.

Good - that's the dialogue I was thinking of (it's the first in my copy entitled The Last Days of Socrates). I thought it sounded familiar. Yeah, "morally correct" is better than "piety" because "piety" carries a religious connotation (as in "being religious" which Christianity acknowledges as no clear indicator of moral character); "morally correct" is closer to "good" in my thinking.

But God is self-created according to the Christian conception of him, no? So he must have, at some point, molded his own character. Did he choose the character traits that you mention arbitrarily, or did he recognize them as good in and of themselves, and decide to endow himself with them on that basis?

I don't think Christianity sees God as "self-creating" because that implied He didn't always exist; we believe He is (to paraphrase Aristotle) the "unmoved mover" - the First Cause. In Christian lingo, we mean that God is the only "non-contingent" entity in the universe; only He is uncreated. We define "good" based upon God's character. God does not "choose" His character - it just is. In other words: love, compassion, justice, mercy et al are "good" because they are attributes of God. Not vice versa.

[3kixintehead]

The beliefs of athiesm in their most basic form are:
The athiest believes in nothing supernatural or unexplainable by science. They believe there is a scientific explanation for everything even if that explanation hasn't been found yet. Most have confidence that science one day will find an explanation.

[cuppajoe_9]

The athiest believes in nothing supernatural or unexplainable by science.

Wrong. The atheist believes in no gods. Buddhist atheists certainly have beliefs that could be consider supernatural.

[cardplay]

I'm surprised that one third said they were atheists. Polls say 90% of Americans 'believe in God'. I guess we're not representative of the nation, huh?

[Logos]

Definitely not. Only about 40% of the members here are from North America.

[hyperborean]

90% of Americans believing in God (most blindly following faith) does represent the western populace. Sad ain't it?

[3kixintehead]

Wrong. The atheist believes in no gods. Buddhist atheists certainly have beliefs that could be consider supernatural.

If they are buddhist then they are not very good athiests since buddhism is a very spiritual faith. Vice versa also. One can follow the philosophy of buddhism but if they participate in the faith then they are buddhist not athiest.

[RobinHood3000]

If they are buddhist then they are not very good athiests since buddhism is a very spiritual faith. Vice versa also. One can follow the philosophy of buddhism but if they participate in the faith then they are buddhist not athiest.

Wrong - theism is not the same as spiritualism. Buddhist atheists are Buddhists who consider Siddhartha a teacher, but NOT a deity. If they do not believe in a deity, then they may be called atheists.

[The Atheist]

90% of Americans believing in God (most blindly following faith) does represent the western populace. Sad ain't it?

It's not at all representative of general western attitudes. Most of Western Europe is non-religious, by comparison.

[Redzeppelin]

I suppose the question waiting to be asked might be this:

What is the atheist spiritual about - since spiritualism generally refers to some sort of supernatural entity or dimension; if God (or gods) are dismissed as a reality, then what is the Buddhist "spiritual" about?

[billyjack]

you could call their spirituality god or soul or mind or universe, but they dont personify or deify the spiritual into something supernatural or beyond reality. their spirituality isnt a godhead who controls or judges or creates. instead, spirituality is the way of things, the workings of nature, the spontaneous unity of the universe. its completely empirical, observable, knowable, but not speakable-only experiencable.

[cuppajoe_9]

What is the atheist spiritual about - since spiritualism generally refers to some sort of supernatural entity or dimension; if God (or gods) are dismissed as a reality, then what is the Buddhist "spiritual" about?

Reincarnation, the idea of a "pure land" afterlife for the virtuous, the concept of Bodhisattvas – noble spirits that continually return to the earth to educated and assist the rest of us (the Dalai Lama being one example), &c. These are all supernatural beliefs held by certain Buddhist sects, while still maintaing that there is no such thing as a god. I'm going to cut myself off here, because I am definitely not an authority on Buddhism.

Oh, and "the atheist" is as fictional an entity as "the theist".

[cuppajoe_9]

I'm surprised that one third said they were atheists. Polls say 90% of Americans 'believe in God'. I guess we're not representative of the nation, huh?

Aside from the reasons other have given, I imagine a person who is an atheist is more likely to read a thread titled 'Atheists'.