But the bat has wings with bones and skeletal muscle in them. A flying squirrel would have to mutate both at the same time to be a bat. They couldn't mutate them at seperate times, because, alone, each is detrimental to the squirrel so the squirrel could never get both at one time.
Beneficial mutations have shown to cause nothing like speciation in the observable wild, but it might have in the lab. What lab was that?
Drosophilia (fruit flies) have been observed to speciate in the wild and in the lab. Source: Crossley, S. A. 1974. Changes in mating behavior produced by selection for ethological isolation between ebony and vestigial mutants of Drosophilia melanogaster. Evolution. 28:631-647.Originally Posted by Dant
What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
- Gertrude Stein
A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
- Virginia Woolf
I won't even make them look for it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4461827.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4708459.stm
and one of my own:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3790531.stm
What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
- Gertrude Stein
A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
- Virginia Woolf
Don't look for objective analysis at that site - but do look at the site. My family has several times gone to hear Ken Ham speak and much of the creationist viewpoint that I know comes from AiG. It's a little harsh in its views toward evolutionism but it puts forth compelling arguments.2) Why would anybody look for an objective analysis at a website called answersingenesis.com?
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."
Ken Ham does not put forth convincing arguments, I'm sorry. He doesn't even put forth falacious arguments. He just lies. From the site:
Lie.Vital evidence for the evolutionary side has included fakes, mistakes, datings that shift to fit the theory better, and classifications that go against clear anatomical evidence.
Lie. It's more similar to a modern human arm-bone than other species of that period, but it's far from indistinguishable.For example, he points out that a well-preserved arm-bone fossil found in 1965 at Kanapoi, north Kenya, was found to be indistinguishable from a modern human’s arm-bone.
Lie. Later digs uncovered complete and clearly non-human jaw bones and carania from the same species.But because it was regarded as being from a time before humans had evolved, it was suggested that it must be from an ape. This went against all the scientific evidence.
Argument from ignorance. Also, Neandertals aren't humans, by any sort of reasonable standard, as there are overt anatomical differences between the two. No group of humans, modern or ancient, ever had an occipital bun, for example.But where do they fit? Although they were a race of humans, evolutionists have no idea where Neandertals came from or went. The Neandertals’ ‘evolutionary’ origin is as mysterious as their alleged rapid disappearance. From a creationist point of view though, the Neandertals were simply a group of humans who lived in the past.
Lie. They aren't found together. Ever. The newest Homo erectus fossil is, controvertially, 1.3 million years old, where the oldest Homo sapien fossil is 130 000.When different ‘types’ of fossil humans which allegedly evolved one into the other (such as Homo erectus, Homo sapiens, etc.) are discovered at the same place and/or at the same level, it is regarded as an evolution ‘anomaly’.
It might if such evidence actually existed.Such evidence is either lamely explained away or shelved and largely forgotten. But shouldn’t it alert evolutionists to the fact that their theory may be wrong?
I really don't want to go on.
What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
- Gertrude Stein
A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
- Virginia Woolf
Actually, much of past evolution proof has depended on lies. Piltdown Man and the Peppered moth experiment were both regarded as evidence and were both proven frauds.
However, I would like to know what your response to irreducible complexity argument, as formulated by Michael Behe.
"I don't know whether your grasp of theology or meteorology is more appalling.
I guess I'll go light some candles around the tobaggon and beg for mercy."
~Bill Watterson
"In certain times, trying times, desperate times, profanity offers a relief denied even to prayer."
~Mark Twain
"A melancholy-looking man, he had the appearance of someone who had searched for the leak in life's gas pipe with a lighted candle"
~P.G. Wodehouse
What I have to say is pretty much in conjunction with what Dante said.
More Neanderthal men were found. Because they were more similar to humankind than the original one was, the Neanderthal men have been classified as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. The original one was discarded as one who had scurvy or rickets or some such bone disease.
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."
I dare you to find me one, one reference to the Piltdown Man in any peer-reviewed article about evolution written since 1960.Piltdown Man and the Peppered moth experiment were both regarded as evidence and were both proven frauds.
As for the Peppered Moth experiment, it's been repeated with the same results:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601_2_3.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601_2_2.html
I've dealt with it. It's an argument from ignorance. In addition, Behe hasn't been able to come up with an irreducibly complex structure, even by his own defitintion.
Ken Miller can take care of that one for me.
What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
- Gertrude Stein
A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
- Virginia Woolf
Simply false. Neanderthals are classified as Homo neanderthalensis. Full taxonomy of Homo neaderthalensis here.
Edit: a Google revealed that the species was originally clasified Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, but DNA evidence shows otherwise. Sorry about that.
Last edited by cuppajoe_9; 04-17-2007 at 09:23 PM.
What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
- Gertrude Stein
A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
- Virginia Woolf
I'll have to get back to you on Behe's "failure."
What cannot be argued away are the mathematical odds. The math is against most of what evolution - whether abiogenesis or not - suggests as possible.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
What are the mathematical odds of there being a god who designed the Universe and all life within it? I would say that the chances have to be better for evolution than for the existence of god. Firstly, we have evidence for evolution.
Faith is believing what you know ain't so - Mark Twain
The preachers deal with men of straw, as they are men of straw themselves - Henry David Thoreau
The way to see faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamin Franklin
The teaching of the church, theoretically astute, is a lie in practice and a compound of vulgar superstitions and sorcery - Leo Tolstoy
I've given you the odds that the chimpanzee and human genomes got the way they are by a process other than common ancestry (billions to one against, even discounting the genes that are actually functional). I can give you some other proofs that can be given to a high level of statistical probability as well, if you'd like.
What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
- Gertrude Stein
A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
- Virginia Woolf
How does one calculate such a thing? And, either way, you have shifted the focus; I asserted that evolution struggles with the math required to make it believable. You didn't address that.
The "evidence" is not conclusive - and it relies upon the tacit acceptance of numbers that are beyond reason, beyond belief.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
What about the eye, or even cilia?
"I don't know whether your grasp of theology or meteorology is more appalling.
I guess I'll go light some candles around the tobaggon and beg for mercy."
~Bill Watterson
"In certain times, trying times, desperate times, profanity offers a relief denied even to prayer."
~Mark Twain
"A melancholy-looking man, he had the appearance of someone who had searched for the leak in life's gas pipe with a lighted candle"
~P.G. Wodehouse
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