a language problem!

[Silvia]

My teacher made us study Goethe's life and there are a lot of similarities with Werther, that's true.
Actually, I do understand the general meaning of what I read of Moby Dick, but, still, it seems to me not enough!
But maybe I'm too pretentious and should try to read it all the same ...yes...that's what I'm going to do!!
I just hope it'll take me as long as it took you to finish it...honestly, three months are not that long, considering that Melville is not the easiest writer on Earth and that English is not your first language!
For what German is concerned, I like it, but find it hard to express myself by talking, expecially during interrogations ( the last one was about Sturm und Drang and die Klassik, and I took only 6.5)
While I'm better at writing, because I have more time to think about declinations etc...
By the way, thank you for your suggestion!

[ranzy]

Actually, I do understand the general meaning of what I read of Moby Dick, but, still, it seems to me not enough!
But maybe I'm too pretentious and should try to read it all the same ...yes...that's what I'm going to do!!

I understand what you're saying and that's the reason why I'm now reading it in italian after having read the original version. But if you have already read the italian one you should have already catched the story and the theme of the book and now you may want to pay attention to Melville's style of writing. But obviously it may be boring to do that if you don't understanding it very well, so I totally agree with your decision of taking up the book in some months. Keep in mind that you're doing it for your own pleasure...

[Virgil]

I understand what you're saying and that's the reason why I'm now reading it in italian after having read the original version. But if you have already read the italian one you should have already catched the story and the theme of the book and now you may want to pay attention to Melville's style of writing. But obviously it may be boring to do that if you don't understanding it very well, so I totally agree with your decision of taking up the book in some months. Keep in mind that you're doing it for your own pleasure...

Just a comment for Silvia and Ranzy, wouldn't it be easier to read in Italian first and then try the original language? This way you know the story and then try to understand the foreign language.

[Silvia]

yes, Virgil, it would be easier to read in Italian and then in English....but, as ranzy said, it may be boring or you may simply not feel like reading the same booke twice.
In this case, since I enjoyed Moby Dick so much in Italian, I would love to start reading it in it's original language...It's just that I don't feel ready yet!!
I have something to ask you:while reading your profile and that of other people in this site, I found out quite everybody put Faulkner as favorite writer....an author I have never heard of!!
could you suggest my reading of one (maybe the most famous or just the one you prefer) of his books?

to ranzy: I totally agree: I read for my own plesure...that's why I'm determined to re-read Moby Dick...It'll be a little bit hard, but I think it deserves at least my effort!!!
Anyway,it's nice you share some of my thoughts about reading books in a language which is not your own!!

[Virgil]

Silvia, William Faulkner is the probably the greatest American novelist and in my opinion the greatest of the whole 20th century. Here's a little something from the encyclopedia:

William Cuthbert Faulkner (September 25, 1897 – July 6, 1962) was an American novelist and poet whose works feature his native state of Mississippi. Regarded as one of the most influential writers of the twentieth century, Faulkner was awarded the 1949 Nobel Prize for Literature.

Faulkner's writing is often criticized as being dense, meandering and difficult to understand due to his heavy use of such literary techniques as symbolism, allegory, multiple narrators and points of view, non-linear narrative, and especially stream of consciousness. Faulkner was known for an experimental style with meticulous attention to diction and cadence, in contrast to the minimalist understatement of his rival Ernest Hemingway.

Along with Mark Twain and possibly Tennessee Williams, Faulkner is considered to be one of the most important "Southern writers". He was relatively unknown before receiving the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1949, but his work is now favored by the general public and critics.[1]

You can read the rest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Faulkner

His acceptance speech of the Nobel Prize is worth reading and a quote of it is in my signature: http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/faulkner/faulkner.html

You read about his novels here: http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/f...ib_novels.html

I will say his novels are difficult. We discussed in detail The Sound and the Fury here at lit net book club forums: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=16592

Hope this helps. I think he's the greatest novelist. You might want to start with a short story.

[ranzy]

I will say his novels are difficult. We discussed in detail The Sound and the Fury here at lit net book club forums: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=16592

I have read "the sound and the fury" but I am going to read it again as soon as I've got the time, because I spent the first half of the book just wondering what was happening and who the characters were and I didn't pay attention to Faulkner's writing. But I have to say that I liked very much the last part of the book, there are some sentences in particular (that now I can't remember) that I really loved.

Just a comment for Silvia and Ranzy, wouldn't it be easier to read in Italian first and then try the original language? This way you know the story and then try to understand the foreign language.

Yes, it is surely easier and I admit it would have been better with Moby Dick, but I'm so hungry for new books that I don't always want to read a book twice, so I sometimes hope to understand the english version whithout the help of the italian one. That has worked well with some authors (Jane Austen, George Orwell...) but not enough with Moby Dick

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Silvia, William Faulkner is the probably the greatest American novelist and in my opinion the greatest of the whole 20th century. Here's a little something from the encyclopedia:


You can read the rest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Faulkner

His acceptance speech of the Nobel Prize is worth reading and a quote of it is in my signature: http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/faulkner/faulkner.html

You read about his novels here: http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/f...ib_novels.html

I will say his novels are difficult. We discussed in detail The Sound and the Fury here at lit net book club forums: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=16592

Hope this helps. I think he's the greatest novelist. You might want to start with a short story.

I just read his acceptence speech...He is a great man.

Thank you for leading me to this great writer.

You know, I've realized something...I don't have much of a problem (If any... ) when it comes to understanding the writer and/or his/her work...It's finding them that I have a hard time with.

I guess I just need someone to point me to the direction that leads to an "unknown" writer and such...Just need some recommendation now and then.

Your response was probably intended for Silvia but...Still...Thanks.

[oldbob39]

Hello, Silvia. I was so pleased at my first impression of you that I thought I would reply. I hope I can contribute something to you. And I would be delighted to open a conversation with you. Your study of languages is an admirable thing to a Yank, particularly since we seldom study languages very seriously, forget them immediately upon graduation, and never, never read anything in the original. May I offer some thoughts on the things that have been written? (I am not really well educated in literature but I do have some literary ambitions, like regularly writing and submitting poetry and short stories, and imagining that someday I will finish my novel.)

1. On Melville and the unusual constructions and often inverted word orders, he uses, it is often useful to use inversions to emphasize a word or idea, but Melville may seem to be overusing the idea. I do not know if it is characteristic of the era, but by the time of Stephen Crane in "Red Badge of Courage" (1860's), the language was much less complex (or, as I often call it, "ornate") The feeling has been expressed here that Melville is harder to read than necessary, and I agree. He does indeed have a tendency to write sentences that seem excessively long, and have too many "side trips". One writer mentioned William Faulkner, who I think does especially interesting work and also uses extremely long sentences, but in my opinion, uses them much more effectively than Melville. (I would offer a suggestion as to my favorite Faulkner, but I have it packed away and would have to look for it. I will if you wish. I have a feeling that your assignments have neglected the most lively era of American lit, since you didn't mention him.)

2. Of Shakespeare, "MacBeth" is widely taught in the US, and I like it. It sounds good read aloud in English, and I don't know if that comes through in Italian translation, but he uses an interesting form for some of his speeches: he frequently writes apparent prose in his speeches, then goes into rhymed meter for his last two lines. See the final scene where MacBeth says "Damned be he who first cries 'Hold, enough'." (I may have misquoted slightly. Sorry.) But you mentioned Richard III iwhich I find magnificent. the opening line is surely one of the greatest in the English language. John Steinbeck borrowed "Winter of our Discontent" for the title of a very fine novel which may be worth reading (Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" is one of the greatest of American novels, but it is difficult reading, too.)

Shakespeare's English can be challenging to even the American-English speaker (and I have no idea if the British-English speakers have an easier time of it.) If you want to explore Shakespeare and have access to films on DVD or VCR format, you might seek out "Henry V" with Kenneth Branagh as star, then follow he written text as you watch.

3. If you want another novel that is often regarded as one of the greatest in American lit, consider "The Great Gatsby" by Fitzgerald. I personally do not especially like it, but smarter people than I am seem to hold it in great respect.

Well, I hope I may have contributed some useful thoughts. I would very much enjoy hearing from you. I have never been to Italy, myself, but my daughter just finished a week's tour of the area near Pisa two weeks ago, and she gave us pleasant accounts of her trip.

Old Bob

[Silvia]

hi old bob, I'm glad you replied!
Well, it's true, our programme has probably left out the most lively period of American literature so far, but we have just took up using the new book " A History and Anthology of English Literature with American and Commonwealth Insights" starting from the 19th century and I'm so so happy about that for we are finally going to analize authors such as Mary Shelley, Jane Austen, Oscar Wilde, Emily Dickinson and so on....I'm looking forward to it...Anyway,I asked my teacher about Faulkner today, and she said that we're not going to study him, which is a pity, I guess..

For what Shakespeare is concerned, I spent a lot of time on him and I love Richard III....Honestly, I do not believe I'm as prepared on this subject as any English or American student might be, but, still, I enjoy reading his works and don't find it hard to understand the meaning he wanted to conceive. It's just the ancient language he employs I have difficulties with and I always need the Italian version.....as I said in the previous threads, I don't feel satisfied with getting "the general meaning". That's why I'm working to improve my vocabulary by reading in English and joining this site..but then again, perhaps I'm just dreaming, I mean, I would't even understand Dante's Divine Comedy without the notes...

Oh, and my teacher made us watch some estracts from different versions of Othello (that with Mel Gibson, another movie with Kenneth Branah..) and also Richard III with Al Pacino (what a great actor!), which I loved so much. well, it was not a real movie...it was more like a documentary, with the actors and actresses addressing the audience and providing us with historical information. I have never heard of Kenneth Branah's "Henry V", but I'm going to suggest that we should watch it too!!

I can see why your daughter liked Pisa...it is a gorgeous town!! I would suggest your coming to see Italy too, you would enjoy it for sure!

Thank you again for your pieces of advice, it has been very kind of you and I'm sure they'll turn out to be very useful..sorry if it took me so much to answer!
Silvia

[latimeri]

Welcome to the forums, Silvia! I'm sure you'll fit right in here.

I have not read Moby Dick, but I can say that Melville's style does not appeal to me, based on some of his short stories that I've read. He seems to fall into the trap of the self-educated in making his vocabulary and sentence structure work doubly hard in an attempt to compensate, or prove that formal education is unnecessary. I think this may be where you're finding difficulties, and I'm sure that it's not the fault of the translator. It's been insisted to me that his ideas are profound, tragic, and influential, but all I've ever seen is a garble of trite tripe. Again, I can't speak for Moby Dick, and perhaps he concentrated his best mental exertion on that work. The thing that strikes me most about his writing is his tendency to rearrange the standard English usage in sentence structures. This always throws up a red flag to me that one is trying to make their writing seem more sophisticated than it is. I have heard the argument that his sentences follow the standards of his time, but I find nothing like them in Hawthorne or Poe.

In any case, your English seems very good, for one insisting that it is not--and I see no reason why you should deny your ability to tackle Melville in the original.

Again, welcome! I look forward to your contribution to the forums.

How you can say anything about the Mellvile's style without been read the book.