1984 and 2007

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

social class.both novels refer to class as the main theme of distinguishing between people/animals. that a group of people/animals an be in control of another group of people/animals and benefit from them them and the working class always seem to rally and start a resistance but it never comes.

[Lioness_Heart]

I see what you mean. I think that there are still social classes, at least here (England). People keep saying that there's no class system anymore, and whilst the working and middle classes are becoming blurred, the upper class is still there, and getting more powerful, while the rest of us have very little say in anything.

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

in todays day and age we never seem to get that problem, marxists will tell you that its because the owning classes disguise it, feminists blame men but at the end of the day everyone is so content now at being able to afford the same things as the upper classes (ie. computers, access to knowledge, holidays- things that only rich people could afford) that there isnt really a class problem ergo no need for a totalitarian state

[Lioness_Heart]

But there is still a class system in people's minds. At least, as far as I have seen.

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

could i have an example?please?

[Lioness_Heart]

There are lots of people who claim to 'feel working class'. Don't get me started on that actually... But then there are lots of wealthy people (not upper class, but somewhere towards the upper of the middle) - I'm talking people I know here... - who look down so much on those they believe inferior to them...

Like, my friend's parents are really rich, and they don't mind me, but they totally look down on my parents becasue they're not rich...

Not the greatest example. but what I basically mean is, it's hard to claim that there is no class system when people themselves identify with certain classes.

And also when what happened in Animal Farm is happening now.

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

i agree that class identity is still present in some people. there are still certain people that look down on my parents for the same reason.and i do suppose that all you need is a group of people with the same class identity to get together to form a class. I just cant see another country going communist, havent we learnt enough.then again there was two world wars.
i guess what im trying to say is i obviously have no idea but im trying hard to have faith in this country.please forgive my ramblings.

[Lioness_Heart]

lol. Nothing to forgive... Perhaps I am to cynical. But the country is starting to scare me. I doub't we'll go communist, but it seems to be getting increasingly capitalist

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

but the masses dearest, surely will prevail. we used to control the world and now we cant even control this little island. theres not enough guts in government to ever take total control. I like capitalism. let them have the control as long as i get my beer tokens and can speak freely at the end of the week im all for that. its that kind of attitude that let the nazis in. i dont think your cynical either, its nice to have an opinion while you still can.as you can probably tell i dont have mine yet!

[Lioness_Heart]

But what if 'the masses' have faith in a corrupted system? Not that I think that it's totally corrupted... I don't know really. I'm just quite scared: I want to feel proud of my country for being a good place where people can feel safe, and where people can THINK. Don't quite know where that came from... but I feel that there is a little too much blind faith in a system that does not deserve that faith. I know it's silly, but I just want everyone to be nice, so that we can have trust without it being betrayed, and so that good intentions will not be corrupted.

Not quite sure of my point. But anyway...

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

i don't think its silly to want everyone to be nice. if anything its sensible (the exact opposite to silly) and if everyone wanted that, nay worked at that, it would happen. but as i can tell you know, being nice can sometimes not garner the intended result and then how stupid and let down do we feel. trust and love i feel are one in the same thing as an emotion and i feel this world needs a little more of it, from bush to blair to us little people or we will end up not being able to tell the people from the pigs and living in a paranoid controlled world where the powerful isolate themselves and scrutinize our every movements for fear of revolt.kudos?

[Lioness_Heart]

Are we getting there already?

Anyway, I must depart. It's been interesting talking to you.

I feel so unsure about our world . It confuses me. Although much does.

[RULAI]

Oh hii. I feel u made a really good point down there. Yes our society looks pretty much alike 1984. But still, I say that 1984 is a rather bleak look into the future. U see, we are all so "I am always right" kinda attitude out there, so its gonna be tough trying to force all of us to change our mindset even through torture. At least.. for me I m pretty firm in my beliefs...

[The Atheist]

but the masses dearest, surely will prevail. we used to control the world and now we cant even control this little island. theres not enough guts in government to ever take total control. I like capitalism. let them have the control as long as i get my beer tokens and can speak freely at the end of the week im all for that. its that kind of attitude that let the nazis in. i dont think your cynical either, its nice to have an opinion while you still can.as you can probably tell i dont have mine yet!

Just like to add my take on it, from the other side of the world.

Imagine a system where the ruling "class" made up all of the major parties. Capitalism has created a new type of elite, where the money has risen to the top in many ways. Consider media. The enormous majority of electronic, print and voice media is carried by a tiny bunch of companies and is therefore open to abuse. If mainstream coverage of international events doesn't convince you that we are seeing somewhat slanted details already, then you must be either very young or naive.

I have watched the differences in political bias swing from an almost-Communist Labour in England, to the current situation where the ruling Labour party is as right-wing as any Tory government has been or could be. It's Labour who have instigated the biggest and most sophisticated electronic spy network in history - all to monitor its own citizens. This kind of behaviour would have seen storms of protest across Britain which would have dwarfed any seen to date had this been tried even as recently as the 1990s.

Using OECD countries, representing pretty much all of the major democracies in the world, it's very hard to distinguish serious differences in policy between any of the ruling parties or major opposition. The Green factor aside - and they have been shown able to sway to political influence with the best of them - policies, as they relate to the vast majority of citizens are largely the same.

Capitalism itself is becoming a de facto totalitarian system. That may be fine and work well, but who's to say that the best interests of humanity aren't served better by complete anarchy, or matriarchal rule?

When 5% of humans control 95% of wealth in the world - and I don't think the truth is too far from those numbers - have we created a fair system, or The Party?

Compare with 1984. The Party in place. Network for national, constant surveillance of its citizens being implemented. Anti-demonstration policies instituted. Prisoners held without rights.

There's no chance of an Orwellian/Stalinesque totalitarian sweeping into power for a thousand years; but is what we're creating all that different underneath?

[wudidiz]

Hi, I just registered here. Could someone please remind me what the handbook or manual in 1984 that Winston had was referred to? I'm sorry, I haven't read the book for 20 years. It was and still is one of my favorite novels.