Evolution vs. Creation

[Wintermute]

Good Day Adu,

Blaming God is a pretty understandable human reaction to the horrors and tragedy of the world..

I don't even know if a god exists, so it would be pretty silly of me to blame her/him/it.

However, hate and fear, pain and suffering, all of these things are direct byproducts of sin. ..

Sin, only exists if you believe in it. And, to believe in it you need to believe that a universal creator exists who defines it. I'm uncertain. I still would like to believe though, that if I do someday find my God, that it would have enough class not to create satan/sin, etc, just to have a reason to judge its creation--all the while causing untold pain and destruction. It just seems silly to me. But again, I'm just a 50 year old goober that doesn't have a clue most of the time...so who knows?

Sure, in theory, it would be great to just go out and drink and drug and have sex whenever the desire strikes us, and eat ourselves stupid, kill whoever annoys us and take whatever we want whether it belongs to someone else or not, but that doesn't really sound like a world I want to live in. .

I have a problem with this Adu. You imply that folks that don't believe, or are uncertain, are somehow less moral and more apt to do things like abuse drugs and are having sex all over the sidewalks. I think you are wrong. From my subjective observations, anti-social behaviour is pretty much spread evenly throught all beliefs, cultures, races, etc. Just because I'm uncertain about what's going on in the universe does NOT mean that I'm less moral than those who are.

[Adudaewen]

I have a problem with this Adu. You imply that folks that don't believe, or are uncertain, are somehow less moral and more apt to do things like abuse drugs and are having sex all over the sidewalks. I think you are wrong. From my subjective observations, anti-social behaviour is pretty much spread evenly throught all beliefs, cultures, races, etc. Just because I'm uncertain about what's going on in the universe does NOT mean that I'm less moral than those who are.

That certainly wasn't my meaning, I have know a lot of non-believers who are the absolute salt of the Earth. I have also known a lot of people who profess to be Christian, and commit the most horrible acts. It was merely an example, a "for instance", if you will to demonstrate my point.

[Wintermute]

That certainly wasn't my meaning, I have know a lot of non-believers who are the absolute salt of the Earth. I have also known a lot of people who profess to be Christian, and commit the most horrible acts. It was merely an example, a "for instance", if you will to demonstrate my point.

Hi Adu,

I figured it was. Like I've said you are extremely fair and open minded in your posts.

I do think, however, that many folks feel this way--that if you don't accept that Christ died for your sins then you are almost certainly an immoral, drug using sexual deviant that will surely burn in hell for eternity. And that bothers me... Sometimes I get a little touchy about it, sorry.

[smartblonde2010]

perhaps evolution was a tool, and the Bibal does not really contradict the evolutionist theory...[/SIZE]

the bible DOES contradict evolution, because man came from DUST and not some ape. plain and simple.

[hyperborean]

the bible DOES contradict evolution, because man came from DUST and not some ape. plain and simple.

Not really. Star dust is only the beginning...we didn't magically transform from dust into a human.

[Redzeppelin]

Not really. Star dust is only the beginning...we didn't magically transform from dust into a human.

Right: according to evolution, we "magically" transformed from single cells through numerous random alterations/transmutations into humans. Thank goodness all the random factors that needed to be in place were in place! What were the odds of that?

[aydin]

This is such an interesting thread, but so long! Of course it's really just going to go round and round...

Anyway, I recently had a debate of sorts with a Christian, and according to him, it doesn't matter whether you are good or bad, those who don't accept that Jesus suffered for our (as in mankind) sake and therefore all our sins are forgiven, go to hell. Of course, if I were to believe in a God (and I think the guy thinks he has a chance of converting me - funny that, as the more he talked, the more irritating/amusing I found him) it certainly wouldn't be his one, but I was wondering if this is what the bible really says somewhere?

I also did a 'random act of kindness' (which wasn't really that, but that's what he called it) and seemed to be amazed that someone who didn't have his knowledge of the bible could do something like that... He said he wouldn't have thought of doing it, but if he had, it might have been as part of a plan or something (not his words specifically)... Just to clarify, I don't do good things (when I do them) in the hope of some afterlife reward, but (from the conversation I had with him) I was wondering what people thought on whether to do a good deed out of fear, or some sort of feeling of duty, or that with a manipulative idea behind it, is better than not doing the deed?

I am undecided as to whether a God actually exists but am open to the idea (seeing as there is no proof either way) although I still think that even if I knew everything there was to know about all the religions, faith is more a feeling you have inside, and not an intellectual subject that you can logically prove.

As for evolution - I know that a theory is only correct as long as there is no substantial evidence/ thoery to contradict it, but I think the evidence we have is pretty solid.

[Wintermute]

Right: according to evolution, we "magically" transformed from single cells through numerous random alterations/transmutations into humans. Thank goodness all the random factors that needed to be in place were in place! What were the odds of that?

Hi Red,

Well, if they hadn't fallen into place, we wouldn't be discussing it would we?

I wonder how many worlds in this amazingly huge universe have not beaten the odds and have not evolved intelligent beings?

Just curious--if we do eventually discover intelligent life extraterrestrially, how will this effect your beliefs? And I know, I'm just asking for speculation on your part. Do you think they'd have the same spiritual component we humans do?

[Wintermute]

This is such an interesting thread, but so long! Of course it's really just going to go round and round...

Anyway, I recently had a debate of sorts with a Christian, and according to him, it doesn't matter whether you are good or bad, those who don't accept that Jesus suffered for our (as in mankind) sake and therefore all our sins are forgiven, go to hell. Of course, if I were to believe in a God (and I think the guy thinks he has a chance of converting me - funny that, as the more he talked, the more irritating/amusing I found him) it certainly wouldn't be his one, but I was wondering if this is what the bible really says somewhere?

I also did a 'random act of kindness' (which wasn't really that, but that's what he called it) and seemed to be amazed that someone who didn't have his knowledge of the bible could do something like that... He said he wouldn't have thought of doing it, but if he had, it might have been as part of a plan or something (not his words specifically)... Just to clarify, I don't do good things (when I do them) in the hope of some afterlife reward, but (from the conversation I had with him) I was wondering what people thought on whether to do a good deed out of fear, or some sort of feeling of duty, or that with a manipulative idea behind it, is better than not doing the deed?

I am undecided as to whether a God actually exists but am open to the idea (seeing as there is no proof either way) although I still think that even if I knew everything there was to know about all the religions, faith is more a feeling you have inside, and not an intellectual subject that you can logically prove.

As for evolution - I know that a theory is only correct as long as there is no substantial evidence/ thoery to contradict it, but I think the evidence we have is pretty solid.

Hiya Aydin,

Well said! There is enough evidence to convince me that evolution is the path we're on. I still say, however, that a really classy god would have created evolution. And instead of thinking of it as an affront to their faith, folks should the thanking thier creator for such a wonderful gift. If you're out there, thank you.

As for the deal about accepting that Christ died for my sins--I don't even know what that means. It never has made a lick of sense to me. If you know you're gonna need to send your son down to get nailed to a cross in order to...fix things...why not just avoid that and do it right in the first place. It just doesn't seem real smart to me, and I think if a universally omnipotnet, omnicient creator exists, it would be MUCH smarter than we want to give it credit for. As always however, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

Thanks again for your post.

[aydin]

Hi Wintermute,

Haha! Liked your analysis! Or perhaps should just say, made me laugh, before I go offending people. Agree with what you say about any possible creator being much smarter, which is why what this guy was saying to me seemed so totally stupid. If, knowing we are somewhat logical beings with the capability to think and reason, then, surely he could hardly penalise us for not believing in him?

Also this idea that humans are superior and everything in the universe was made for our purpose seems a little far-fetched to me. So all plants, animals, and I suppose planets as well, are here merely as some sort of function for us? Not that I'm saying we are inferior, but what makes us so superior? I have heard that intellect and the possession of a soul is what gives us an advantage. But amongst us humans don't we generally consider those that 'think' they are superior to be a bit idiotic, and doesn't this only make us superior if we place intelligence above all else?

As for the soul bit, if we have a soul because we breathe and feel, then I don't see why animals shouldn't. And although I do believe we have souls, is there any proof? Is it not that we have become so accustomed to accept that we have one, but that it originated from literature and art and philosophy and so forth? I'm probably wrong, so would welcome any feedback here.

The other thing I have heard is that we must have a soul because we have a conscience. We have a conscience because we are able to think, but I don't think this must mean that we have a soul? Sorry, I think I'm babbling on mindlessly. Will stop.

[Adudaewen]

Hi Adu,

I figured it was. Like I've said you are extremely fair and open minded in your posts.

I do think, however, that many folks feel this way--that if you don't accept that Christ died for your sins then you are almost certainly an immoral, drug using sexual deviant that will surely burn in hell for eternity. And that bothers me... Sometimes I get a little touchy about it, sorry.

Thanx Wintermute, I hope that I can always be fair. Courtesy and open mindedness are two things I really strive for

I totally agree with you, and you should get touchy about it. There are few things in this world that get me hot under the collar like "christians" who think they are better than everyone else. Drives me nuts! Especially when everything in our belief structure preaches against that! So I'm totally with you there.

[kilted exile]

Thank goodness all the random factors that needed to be in place were in place! What were the odds of that?

Quick point.The odds of the random factors being in place is unimportant as to the mutation originally taking place. There is still the same chance of the mutation taking place, these mutations were carried through and passed on to future generations because they were useful adaptations for the environmental conditions. There were also likely mutations which were not useful, these organisms died off and those mutations were not passed on.

An example:

Sickle cell anaemia is a genetic condition, which in the western world is not a useful adaptation and is as a result less prevalent in the western world. However, there have been studies which have shown people who suffer from sickle cell anaemia are less susceptible to malaria - interestingly it is quite prevalent in Northern Africa

[Redzeppelin]

Hi Red,

Well, if they hadn't fallen into place, we wouldn't be discussing it would we?

Well, the other option is that God created us - and that's why we're here discussing it.

I wonder how many worlds in this amazingly huge universe have not beaten the odds and have not evolved intelligent beings?

The odds are so against life spontaneously occurring out of nothing that even our presence here points to a miracle - whether you call it God or not - and science doesn't like "miracles."

Just curious--if we do eventually discover intelligent life extraterrestrially, how will this effect your beliefs? And I know, I'm just asking for speculation on your part. Do you think they'd have the same spiritual component we humans do?

I think it absurd to believe that God - a Being of creative ability and a love of relationship - only created us and that's it. We're different because we were created "in God's image" but I think there's life out there (caveat: they don't come here though). We're just the only world that "fell." My beliefs wouldn't be shaken a bit. To believe that we're "it" in the vastness of the universe is too egocentric for me.

[Wintermute]

The odds are so against life spontaneously occurring out of nothing that even our presence here points to a miracle - whether you call it God or not - and science doesn't like "miracles."

There's another one of those observations that swings both ways: The odds are so against God spontaneously occuring out of nothing. . .or existing for infinity...

Have you had to opportunity to read or watch the Cosmos series by Carl Sagan? In it, as I recall, he demonstrated that the basic building blocks of life, complex protein molecules, could be generated from inorganic materials in an environment similar to how our early solar system is believed to have been. Granted, protiens are a long way from Beethoven's 9th symphony, but over billions of years...I dunno. I remain uncertain, lol.

[hyperborean]

I think it absurd to believe that God - a Being of creative ability and a love of relationship - only created us and that's it. We're different because we were created "in God's image"

I hate when Christians say "god is love". Love is a human emotion; not what God is or what he represents. I know this sounds stoic, but emotions only weaken the individual. Why associate something we made up (love) with the divine being......the other thing we made up

Pico writes that "man is an afterthought" and that we were created so God would have a creature that would admire his work. I have nothing against true Christians who "climb the ladder up to the stars".